Watching the Results...

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Yes, you still have the option to teach religion in your own home, but that isn't the issue here...what were the schools like 50 years ago? And what are they like now? What is different? God was a common place back then, a standard in the majority of people's everyday lives ( in their homes and in school)...today, He is being dismissed...you can come up with any excuse you can find, that could be responsible for making this society have such a tragic downfall...but the bottom line is, the world is lacking one thing ( that is didn't lack 50 years ago), and as long as we continue to erase God from our everyday lives...this world is in danger.

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What were schools like 50 years ago? Can you say Brown vs Board of Ed? Can you say McCarthyism? Please let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

YiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiKES!

I believe in God and am a very faithful person, so I hope I am not attacked as being otherwise ... But I do not believe that religion was the groundwork of schooling and the only thing holding it together.

I agree 100% with Logan's post:

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Our children don't get religion at school, and yes, that makes me sad that they can't pray the way that we did when I was a kid, but they get it from us, which is the most important. Robyn, I'm sure that your children will get the same from you and Rob as they grow up in your home. Manners, religion, respect should not be learned from our school systems, they should be taught in our homes, starting with the parents, with reinforcement from the religious bodies that we embrace. Our children need to be educated on many beliefs, and then choose for themselves the way in which they want to live. All we can do is guide them in the direction that we believe is best.

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As others have said, I believe that religion should NOT be a part of school unless every single religion is taught .. and only then as an educational tool .. not practiced regularly. Religion should be practiced at home. I believe that people should be allowed to wear crosses and other religious symbols as they please though.

Yes, our schooling and home life in general has gone way downhill, but I don't think that can be attributed to any one factor. I actually think it has a lot to do with the advancement of technology myself. Neither of my parents even had television sets when they were young. They played outside and read books. There were no Nintendos or computers to sit in front of all day long. I think the parents who sit their kids in front of a TV, computer, or Nintendo so they won't have to deal with them are the cause of the downfall.

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Originally posted by WolfChan
Okay, I'm confused here....are you actually saying that you think things were better when pagan kids had to go to school and listen to drivel about a religion that would never be a part of their lives? I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm genuinely baffled. (And I only used pagans as an example becuase it pertains to me, but I mean all non-mainstream faiths)

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I am not saying that the book of Romans, John, Acts, etc, from the Bible should be preached to kids in school, but simple things like the pledge of allegience, that were a common place...i feel it should be able to be said, if you don't believe in it, then refrain from saying it...but don't tell Christians that they can't say it ....and don't tell Christians that they have to cover their cross when they enter the school, like i think Samatha Puppy was told ( to cover her crusifix), then a Pagan, shouldn't be able to wear something exemplifing their religion, neither should a Jewish person, etc...

For instance, I have attended Catholic sevices during weddings i have been invited to, i am not Catholic...when prayers are being resited, i refrain from saying them...that is not how I practice my religion...so i reserve the right to refrain from saying them...

All i was saying, is that i feel that it is quite evident that with every little ounce of God being removed from schools, and society as a whole, the world is slowly becoming a more tragic place to live in, then say, 50 years back, when it was evident that God was in control of many people's lives and the schools respected Him....things were just more moral and safe.

Great post Aly, I'm definitely in agreement!

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy

All i was saying, is that i feel that it is quite evident that with every little ounce of God being removed from schools, and society as a whole, the world is slowly becoming a more tragic place to live in, then say, 50 years back, when it was evident that God was in control of many people's lives and the schools respected Him....things were just more moral and safe.

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You did not answer my question....Do you actually think things were better when non-Christian kids had to sit and feel left out and possibly looked down upon because their faith was not represented while this other faith was?

Hmm 50 years ago the majority of women didn't have jobs and weren't really given equal rights, blacks and whites couldn't attend classes together do you also think this had led to the school system going downhill? There is a reason why Christian schools exist. If you want your child praying in school then send him to a school where he can pray, but it shouldn't be forced upon people. My parents wanted me to learn catholic values so they sent me to catholic school. They didn't complain about how horrible the school system was because of lack of religion. Or maybe that was because both of them are public educators.

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Originally posted by WolfChan
You did not answer my question....Do you actually think things were better when non-Christian kids had to sit and feel left out and possibly looked down upon because their faith was not represented while this other faith was?

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This is a sad, uninformed commentary, but 50 years ago (before I was born), I think Christianity was probably the most recognized religion in the US and there wasn't as much diversity within religion evident in this country, with other people demanding to be recognized. Now they do, and rightfully so!

You're right, Robyn, in that the world was different then, and we didn't have the same concerns that we have now, but we had other ones, like civil rights and many other worthy causes.

I still hold strongly to my belief that the best lessons our children learn are learned at home, with us.

Best intentions.
Logan

I think there's a fine line between not pushing religious beliefs on people and not allowing them to freely express their religion. I don't think a public school should have crosses or religious symbols on the wall, but I feel kids should be able to wear a cross or whatever religious symbol they wish to if they want to express their religion. I don't think a public school should enforce prayer at lunch time, but I think a kid should be able to say a prayer before lunch if they want to without getting harassed or told not to. I'm all for individual expression as long as it is peaceful. It seems to me in some of the efforts to keep religion out of school, they are actually supressing any individual expression of it at all. I always looked on the ability to express whatever faith you were as one of the freedoms of this country.

I very much see the point others have made about granting holidays on Christian religious days and not other religions' holy days. I would think something like a set amount of vacation days where kids could choose which days they used would be good, but it'd be hard to set something like that up and have staff available at all times. I am not sure how this problem could be addressed without taking all holidays away and just setting up generic days off that had nothing to do with religion.

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Originally posted by WolfChan
You did not answer my question....Do you actually think things were better when non-Christian kids had to sit and feel left out and possibly looked down upon because their faith was not represented while this other faith was?

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I am not Pagan. You are clearly a non-Christian, so if something of Christianity has been removed from the school systems at the present time, it must make you feel some what relieved ( so are you saying it is better that Christian kids now have to refrain from uplifting their God in school) ...b/c you didn't believe in it being said in the first...since you are a non-christian...just as i feel, as a Christian, the PLedge should remain in the public schools, why, b/c i am a Christian....

We will need to agree to disagree.

I am not a fan of the dog house ..so i will end this kindly...to each his own. I agree to disagree on this one.

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Originally posted by Logan

I still hold strongly to my belief that the best lessons our children learn are learned at home, with us.

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I 100% agree with you on that.

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Originally posted by K9soul
I think there's a fine line between not pushing religious beliefs on people and not allowing them to freely express their religion. I don't think a public school should have crosses or religious symbols on the wall, but I feel kids should be able to wear a cross or whatever religious symbol they wish to if they want to express their religion. I don't think a public school should enforce prayer at lunch time, but I think a kid should be able to say a prayer before lunch if they want to without getting harassed or told not to. I'm all for individual expression as long as it is peaceful. It seems to me in some of the efforts to keep religion out of school, they are actually supressing any individual expression of it at all. I always looked on the ability to express whatever faith you were as one of the freedoms of this country.

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Very well said...and i will end my comments on this topic here :)

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
I am not Pagan. You are clearly a non-Christian, so if something of Christianity has been removed from the school systems at the present time, it must make you feel some what relieved ( so are you saying it is better that Christian kids now have to refrain from uplifting their God in school) ...b/c you didn't believe in it being said in the first...since you are a non-christian...just as i feel, as a Christian, the PLedge should remain in the public schools, why, b/c i am a Christian....

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I am not saying that people shouldn't be free to their own religious forms of expression, however I am still seeking an answer to my question, which you have dodged answering yet again.

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Originally posted by Uabassoon
Hmm 50 years ago the majority of women didn't have jobs and weren't really given equal rights, blacks and whites couldn't attend classes together do you also think this had led to the school system going downhill? There is a reason why Christian schools exist. If you want your child praying in school then send him to a school where he can pray, but it shouldn't be forced upon people. My parents wanted me to learn catholic values so they sent me to catholic school. They didn't complain about how horrible the school system was because of lack of religion. Or maybe that was because both of them are public educators.

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Gosh my response could fill a page in response to your first sentence, but I will spare you. :) I was hoping that with the end of the election peace would return to Pet Talk. My only comment is that my husband and I did send both of our children to a Christian school because we were tired of them being taught things at school that were contradictory to what we were teaching them at home. To do this cost us over $500 a month for several years and that was 10 years ago. I can't even imagine what it costs today. My hubby often said that we had to pay for freedom FROM our public schools. I didn't expect them to learn religion in public schools but I didn't want the secular school system telling them what to believe either. Oh, and I was in school 50 years ago (I was 7 years old). We had Bible reading each morning (from the Old Testament) and prayer right along with the flag salute and this was in a public school. We also learned about all religions and celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah openly. I am sure had there been any Muslims in the school system (there were none back then in my community) that their holidays would have been observed as well. By the way, our schools were closed for the high Jewish holidays back then too because my community had a large Jewish population. I feel that the demographics of your area has a lot to do with things. See, aren't you glad I didn't get wordy? :p

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Originally posted by Maresche
The thought is Christians choose these symbols to represent Christmas and Easter because they would be familar to the pagans they were trying to convert. She may have used the word stole instead of borrow because Christians in general often don't acknowledge that those symbols were originally pagan and didn't come from the Bible or other Christian source.

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Yeah I understand the pagan stories for the holidays.. i just wanted to make sure that you don't believe our whole religion is based on stealing pagan stories and turning them into our beliefs..:)

Just a random note to maybe get a few chuckles....I often wish we had the days AFTER pagan holidays off, because usually any ritual I choose to celebrate with is performed late at night!! :D :D :D

(That goes back to when pagans were actively prosecuted and had to really hide their faith...and it's just become tradition now for some people)

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Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Yeah I understand the pagan stories for the holidays.. i just wanted to make sure that you don't believe our whole religion is based on stealing pagan stories and turning them into our beliefs..:)

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Nope, just a good chunk of the holidays. :)

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Originally posted by WolfChan
Nope, just a good chunk of the holidays. :)

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please don't think im this nieve... i really am trying to be smart *lol*
So pagans believe the christian belief was formed from taking pagan holidays and forming them into a religion ... that Jesus never existed????

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I feel that the demographics of your area has a lot to do with things.

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I agree with this. However I don't think that 50 years ago in other parts of the U.S. like the south and midwest students were taught the same way (however I would be happy to be proved wrong, I'd love to know that 50 years ago in other parts of the U.S. other cultures and religions were shared). I know that in Texas (where I grew up) it would have been unheard of to have given Jewish holidays off. I mean a student would get an excused abscense but that's about it.

Goddess, no, I do think he existed. I just think they got the dates a little off. :)

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I don't think that's what she meant. I think she meant Christmas and Easter were originally Pagan traditions, and the Christians adopted their way of celebrations and took them as their own, associating them with Jesus. I don't think Jesus used to celebrate Christmas, so where else do the Christians get it from? :confused:

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Yes! Thank you, I can't seem to word things correctly sometimes. :)

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Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
please don't think im this nieve... i really am trying to be smart *lol*
So pagans believe the christian belief was formed from taking pagan holidays and forming them into a religion ... that Jesus never existed????

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No no no. :)

There was a time, long ago when there were more pagans than Christians. The Christians needed a way to try and convert the pagans. So, they took the Pagan holiday of Yule (Dec. 21st) and told everyone that Jesus was born on Dec. 24th and that they needed to celebrate it.

Yule was quickly buried under the rising holiday, Christmas. Yule Tide greetings is from the pagan tradition. As well as decorating a tree and such. These symbols were adopted by Christians and incorporated into the Christmas holiday they created. As far as I know, Jesus wasn't born in Dec.


and I think I'm only going to make Sara more confused. LOL!

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Originally posted by WolfChan
Goddess, no, I do think he existed. I just think they got the dates a little off. :)

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:D :D
thanks for the info!

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I don't think Jesus used to celebrate Christmas, so where else do the Christians get it from?

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Well a Christian's celebration of Christmas is supposed to be celebrating Jesus's birth. I don't know that he would celebrate his own birth?

I sure don't like celebrating my birthday :D

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Originally posted by ramanth
No no no. :)

There was a time, long ago when there were more pagans than Christians. The Christians needed a way to try and convert the pagans. So, they took the Pagan holiday of Yule (Dec. 21st) and told everyone that Jesus was born on Dec. 24th and that they needed to celebrate it.

Yule was quickly buried under the rising holiday, Christmas. Yule Tide greetings is from the pagan tradition. As well as decorating a tree and such. These symbols were adopted by Christians and incorporated into the Christmas holiday they created. As far as I know, Jesus wasn't born in Dec.

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Yeah i believe that Jesus was actually born in September...
thanks you guys for being so nice in clearing that up for me.

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Originally posted by ramanth
As far as I know, Jesus wasn't born in Dec.

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I thought I had heard this too, but I didn't want to bring it up since I know little about it.

The links I posted actually got the old stories a bit wring form the original holiday....the Sun God, the Holly King, the Horned God, whatever you call him by, goes through an annual cycle of death and rebirth according to my faith, and the Yule celebration was a celebration of his emminent rebirth and th elonger brighter days that accompanied it. :) I seriously doubt the old-time pagans actually thought that if the didn't celebrate the sun would be gone for good. :P

No problem. :D Now give Tink and Jupiter a kiss. :D

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Originally posted by ramanth
No problem. :D Now give Tink and Jupiter a kiss. :D

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oh of course!!!

as I type i am uploading some pictures to put in cat general....
Because the wonderful Mr. Kat (jupiter) WILL NOT QUIT CHASING MY MOUSE ARROW AND GETTING ALL IN THE WAY!:D

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Originally posted by WolfChan
I thought I had heard this too, but I didn't want to bring it up since I know little about it.

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I attended a paraochial school when I was younger and was raised Catholic...so a little of the Christian faith is known to me. I just can't remember details, especially as I don't follow that faith any longer. :)

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Off topic, but since we're on the subject...I have always wondered why Christians celebrate Christmas the way they do. I mean...where do you get the holiday from? The Bible? Did Jesus celebrate it (or did his followers celebrate it)? I don't think he/they did.

Our holidays all come from religion.....like Ramadan (the month in which we fast from dawn to sunset everyday) is the month in which we believe God sent down the Quran to Prophet Muhammad. We get that holiday from religion. We get Eid-ul-Fitr (the day after the completion of Ramadan), from religion too. Prophet Muhammad always celebrated it. Its supposed to be a day of thanks and a reward to those who fasted the entire month on God's command. Our third holiday (Eid-ul-Udha) is based on the story of Abraham.......when God commanded him to sacrifice his son to test his faith, and stopped him before did so, and sent him a ram from heaven to sacrifice instead. These are the only three holidays we have and they're all based on religion, and based on the lunar calendar, on the exact dates on which they occured. Where do Christian holidays/traditions come from though? I only ask this out of curiosity.......I had always wondered what Santa, christmas trees, etc. had to do with Jesus.

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We celebrate christmas as Christ's birthday. I don't really know how all the santa and tree jazz got into the celebration of Jesus' birth. I think families participate in it for the holiday fun... of the spirit of giving.. and do it with all the extras. My family always reads the story of Jesus' birth from the bible before we open our presents.:D

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
I have not read every single post here, but the one thing that really seems to amaze me is...we have a bunch of psychics on this board, that seem to know that, had Gore been elected 4 years ago, that 9-11 wouldn't have happened? How anyone can blame Bush for 9-11...it is beyond me...

And to those of you who say that christianity is being "pushed" at you...and that is why you feel it shouldn't be mentioned (religion) in public schools, there are always 2 sides to the argument...what about us Christians, who are opposed to evolution, why should our children have to read about that in public schools, reguardless if you are calling it a science, and not a religion, we don't believe, period, it completely goes against what OUR religion teaches...

Look back 50 years ago, God was allowed to be mentioned in schools, and was a part of people's lives, and prayer was acceptable in schools, maybe even taught by the teachers...and there were morals and there weren't issues like gun shootings and the crime levels weren't so high and the drugs didn't overwhelm schools like they do now...the difference now...God is slowly being taken out of schools, out of our everyday lives, and the world is in trouble...big shocker...sadly, the pattern here, is America has lost it's values by taking religion out of schools...the proof is in the pudding...what are we doing wrong and lacking from schools, and everyday life, to make this world today seem so wrong, and in more trouble than this world, say, 50 years ago was...well, God is what is missing...someday, everyone will see it...right now, it is going to an ongoing argument...

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sooo what your saying is God being taken outta schools is the only reason the worlds gone down hill? I've experienced first hand the reasons its gone down hill. My mother and I lived the BEST life until Bush was elected. We had a 4 bedroom, 3 bathroom house with only us living there, plenty in the bank accounts, 3 vehicles, several pets, anything we wanted we could have. Bush was elected and we didn't think anything of it until mom lost her job after Bush's decisions, then 1 and 2 cars had to be sold.. had to give the dogs up for adoption.. and eventually lost the house. We were homeless for 6 months. Nobody came to help us, no special "programs" or "orginazations" there to take us and help us rebuild *LIKE THERE WAS WHEN CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT THAT ALLOWED US TO REBUILD FROM OUR FIRST BANKRUPTCY* In the time we were homeless I experienced so much, I learned so quick why this worlds quickly dying. Yes, Bush is a big reason for why. Republicans in general are the reason why, their so greedy and selfish. You wanna know why its gone down hill from a person who experienced it first hand?
More drugs, more alcohol, more filth, low selfesteem of those that had also lost everything, no health insurance so no help from doctors when it was desperatly needed, Yeah thanks Bush. Thanks for all youve "given" us. But hes not the only issue I realize that. 50 years ago not as many people were divorcing, 50 years ago the teachers paid more attention to the students, 50 years ago kids had atleast 1 family member they could run to when stuff was going wrong.
I'm christian but I don't believe in forcing religion in schools, thats not why kids suffer today. Ask them about their home life, if their parents listen to them, are they taken care of. They just need a friend.
But I also don't believe in hell or much of what the bible says about satan and the like. I believe in the Love of God - the Father, I believe in Karma - the Teacher, and Mother Nature - the Helping hand or healer. what many christians, (I *believe*), fail to do is be more open minded, from my own experience they take what their preacher says and believe it and end of story. they need to use their time to study and think deeply on everything thats said in the bible and why would our Father send us to "hell" for making mistakes when he purposely didn't make us perfect and etc.
It took me along long time to get back with religion after all I suffered through but I realize today that I had to be broken down to absolutely nothing before I would be able to HEAR Him. I don't feel alone anymore, when something goes wrong Hes the first I turn to and no matter what I KNOW He hears me. My life is better because I found MY friend that I can run to, all these kids need is a person that will listen and comfort.

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
we have a bunch of psychics on this board, that seem to know that, had Gore been elected 4 years ago, that 9-11 wouldn't have happened? How anyone can blame Bush for 9-11...it is beyond me...

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I just wanted to touch on this because I'm sure it was in response to my post. :)

I guess in a way, I do blame Bush. He's our President and I feel he's supposed to keep us safe. Could the attack of happened had Gore been president? Yes I'm sure it could have, and I'd be miffed at Gore and would be blaming him.

On the same token, again, I say it's not right to say we are a safer nation because Bush is still in office. An attack could still happen. And I don't think it was right of Bush to say that we'd be less safe with Kerry in office. I'm sure it was just mud slingling, but he's not psychic either.

A major attack happened under Bush's watch and with him still as President... yes... I'm nervous.

And that's just my opinion. :)

"Santa" is based off of St. Nicholas. This site explains the legend/history of St. Nicholas:

http://www.umkc.edu/imc/stnick.htm

In summary, it states:

"The story of St. Nicholas, also called Nicholas of Bari and Nicholas of Myra (and Santa Claus), began in what is now Turkey, early in the fourth century, near the modern Turkish city of Finike. One of the most popular minor saints commemorated in the Eastern and Western churches, his feast day is December 6th. He is now traditionally associated with the festival of Christmas."

I believe the tree and St. Nich and gift giving parts of Christmas used to be separate from the religious observation of Christ's birth long long ago, but when Christmas came to be combined with other celebrations over time until it became a combination of different things for different people. As mentioned about Yule Tide, some of those things were incorporated into "Christmas." I think if you did a search on the net and put in things like "History of Christmas trees" or "History of Santa" etc, you'd come up with a lot of reading too.

We've got a lot of different discussions going on here, but I'm addressing one in particular

LKPike, I terribly sorry for what you have experienced with your family. Can I ask you, specifically, what President Bush did that caused this?

I lost my job last week. I haven't said a word about it, here, before now, but I think it is time. I do not blame George Bush, as I would not have blamed Bill Clinton or John Kerry. My industry has changed and it has been a rough couple of years. I actually probably have a reason to blame government, or even more specifically, President Bush, because during his administration, the Small Business Administration has not been the top priority, which has led to program problems, budget issues, funding issues, etc, which all directly impacts me and my company since I am an originator of Small Business Administration loans. Do I blame him? No way. I don't blame anyone. It is a part of life, and an unpleasant one, at that. 20 years ago, when I graduated from college, I went to work for a major Textile company (Cannon Mills). One year after I started working for them as a management trainee, I lost my job. There was no where to place the people in training. Everyone who started when I did, lost their jobs. I never looked back with bitterness, just moved forward and started in a different industry. That's what I plan to do now.

Just some thoughts from me.
Logan

TUNE INTO CAT GENERAL FOR SOME PICTURES OF JUPITER!!! :D :D

Sorry about your job, Logan :(

I wish you the best of luck in your search for a new industry though. I hope you can make this into an exciting and fun opportunity!

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Originally posted by aly
Sorry about your job, Logan :(

I wish you the best of luck in your search for a new industry though. I hope you can make this into an exciting and fun opportunity!

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Absolutely! You have a great outlook on something that can be shattering!

Thank you, ladies. I'm going to be just fine, in time, as will my family. I like to think that I'm the type that will land on my feet, and I will!!!! :)

Logan

Kudos, logan.

The Federal Government actually has little to nothing to do with the cycles of the economy. They can make it easier for companies, and improve employment, or they can make it difficult for companies to grow and restrict it. (Normally as an unintended consequence, like EPA Regs that go too far). Your local Government has Far more to do with the local economy than the federal Govt. For a prime example, look at what happened to Mass in the late '70s to the mid to late '80s. I won't get into detail, but it was a cycle of excessive taxation in a weak economy combined with huge growth in government spending. End result? many manufacturers closed up shop. It wasn't until the tech boom started that Mass started to recover, after the state finally realized they had to cut taxes and make the business climate a little more frendly.

The point is that the great big brother in Washington can't really do much to help you, but can do a great deal of harm through excessive taxation and regulation. Self reliance goes far when dealing with the potholes in the road, and asking the federal government to do something about your personal situation is a bit unrealistic.

I've literally been sick to my stomach ever since i've heard that bush has won.

It makes me completely sick and i'm really afraid of what's going to happen in this country.


Today at my school, a girl who is highly for John Kerry, got her vehicle vandalized. YEAH.... what a wonderful society to live in.
I'm almost scared to voice my opinion anymore.. what's next?

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Originally posted by Lady's Human


The Federal Government actually has little to nothing to do with the cycles of the economy. They can make it easier for companies, and improve employment, or they can make it difficult for companies to grow and restrict it.

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Lady's Human, isn't that a bit of a contradictory statement ?
Never mind.... Should be in a different thread....


Logan,

I wish you the best in landing another position. I know you will.
Just wanted to send good wishes in looking around for the right
spot. :) Liz.