White Shepherds

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

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One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

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Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

I have seen some whites do some good work, just the majority of them do not pass. Its not the situation I created, its just how it is. When someone is telling me a LEO is searching for white's cause they do better work??? I wonder just where that person is coming from. Its far easier to find a GSD or mal than any of the others, and mal's are much cheaper. Nobody wants to believe me, so I sent you some links where other people that import, train, and breed working dogs, see what they have to say on that issue, then come back and tell me I'm lying.

Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.

I've done far more than read a few breeder websites to form my "opinion".

I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.

You keep saying that the gene pool is large, it is not.

YOu keep saying they have more brains and drive, yet can only show me two websites with the same dogs on them over the past 20 or 30 years and only a handful of dogs are there. Why, because that's all that have accomplished much. I've been there and see what happens.

You keep saying they have better working temperments yet they aren't overwhelming any working venue, or even represented very often?? Most people with working dogs could care less what color they are, they go to what dogs can work. You keep saying they have more drive, yet you raise Psychiatric Service Dogs? Where does high drive come in to play with that? Are you telling me that those services look for dogs with a good balance of high prey and high defense drive?? Funny cause every service dog outfit i've ever placed dogs in were all looking for lower drive dogs, EVERY ONE. When I see lip service being paid to something the finest breed in the world does, i get offended.

You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price.

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I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

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I have only ever seen belgians more expensive...not hard when you can get a shepherd for free from some backyard breeder though...

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.

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Jackfrost, I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.

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We put some stuff out too. It didnt seem to change your mind some.

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

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Jack - you came onto a thread that was positive and started an argument and put down and insulted several people. The way my daddy raised me that was called insulting. I will cede that you have your own opinion, and that it may possibly be true...but dont try to force it on us. You arent going to change our minds by insulting us, just as we wont change yours by arguing....why dont we just leave it at that.

If it makes a difference, the Virginia Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (a top Veterinary College) is right near by. I can walk down there and ask some geneticists and Veterinarians about that. Would any of that help, or even change your mind? Thats true hard data.

and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.

(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.

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Originally Posted by wolfsoul

I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

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and we just imported a schIII female with fertility issues that tied for 1st in points in last years german BSP for 25 grand, what's your point??? That's FIVE TIMES the cost. your normal imports that a lot of law enforcement uses get younger green dogs mals go for 800 up to just over a grand, a GSD of comperable age and ability will be 2000 up to 6-7grand. Strongly disagree all you want, but those are the going rates plus or minus a few hundred bucks. There is no Comparison.

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Originally Posted by Ceph

and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.

(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.

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LOL Yup. You got us there. That is why I keep trying to say that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But they are not entiled to be demeaning and insulting just because someone elses opinion and knowledge is different then their own.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-

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I have no doubt that it happens. I have no doubt that some are really fine animals. I do have a problem with saying that because the great grandsire of horand was white they are somehow a "super" dog and they have more brains and drive and can do everything as good or better than GSD's. If you're comparing your average american line GSD maybe, if you're comparing a GSD with lineage of working dogs, they aren't even close to the same dog.

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I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.

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I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

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no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.

good point ceph. All the can determine now is a whippet is a whippet but not the color right? I know in my breed, with records sealed or distroyed in the Russian fall of the Tsars. Its almost impossible to know what colors were the earlier dogs- just even 75 years back unless you have pictures.

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Originally Posted by Ceph

no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.

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Did you get your stuff on hybird vigor figured out then?? Outward data means a lot. Looking at the very narrow scope of just genes will leave out the big picture. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. WHite breeder's breeding whites to get them consistently breed to a dog that has been selected against. So much so that their temperment, their working ability is nowhere close to producing those working dogs on a consitent level. From just a gene standpoint you're correct, but from a whole dog standpoint, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

Did you get your stuff on hybird vigor figured out then?? Outward data means a lot. Looking at the very narrow scope of just genes will leave out the big picture. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. WHite breeder's breeding whites to get them consistently breed to a dog that has been selected against. So much so that their temperment, their working ability is nowhere close to producing those working dogs on a consitent level. From just a gene standpoint you're correct, but from a whole dog standpoint, you couldn't be further from the truth.

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I will admit I made a mistake, I forgot slightly what the word meant...I meant breeding outside the lines...not breeding cousin to cousin...when I said it...I neglected to remember that it is more of a crossbreeding term.

Here is one more statement though....if you hadnt been so insulting I might have actually listened to some of the things you said, I am the first to admit that I dont know that much about dogs, I know more about farm animals...when Virginia Tech Breeds horses they look at the genetics of the animals, the breed relations and what they can produce...they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare.

another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying.

Also if genetically I am right then doesnt it stand to reason that what you said about the whites not coming from colors being untrue? If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines. I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

I agree Ceph.

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they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare

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and if white shepherds just popped up in gsd's bred for health temperment and working ability than i'm sure on a whole, there wouldn't be any difference in how they performed. BUT in the case of White's that isn't the case.

Its the same as people that just breed for only the black saddle look with red color that have a "flying" trot. Not much comes out in the way of working abilities of those dogs on a consistent level. Sure some can, but they are the exception, not the rule. When you breed for one color, one trait period, you lose the rest of the dog. Those aren't rules I made up, it just happens.

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another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying

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I'm more of the opposite, If I'm not sure of what i'm saying I don't say much, but if I do, I"m quite animate about it, especially when people disagree. and yet i've still found a way to stick my foot in my mouth more than once.

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If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines.

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That would be true, but there is a big BUT here, i don't think its too far of a stretch for me to say or for others to see, that if I go to a kennel that has consistently tested their stock, and study bloodlines and produce good working dogs on a consistent basis, and I got to a kennel that neither tests, nor studies, just breeds to GSD's cause they're registered with the AKC, i'm going to find a vast difference in the dogs?? I thought I knew what GSD's were for 20 years till I got exposed to working line GSD's, its night and day difference.

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I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

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They may be I've never been there, I can only go by what I've seen here, and what others that I work with have seen. Breeding dogs in America is sadly very outclassed (generally speaking) by our European counter parts. Because they do test and prove their stock before breeding, unlike here, anything with AKC papers can be bred. Technically and genetically Identical, but so far apart on the field proving themselves.

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Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

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when you look at it just from a color stand point you're correct. When you look at the history, it becomes a lot more clear. I'll try and put it as concise as I can. Whites have been selected against since the beginning. Maybe not here in america, but we have done nothing good for the GSD I'm not even going to get into that.

Whether or not I have hard facts, its not too hard to imagine that the gene for white was in a relatively small population of GSD's as they were not showing up very often at all in litters. With the amount of line breeding and such going on, I think there would have been more. When they did show up, they were not bred and not sold as breeding stock by good breeders.

Breeders breeding whites, didn't take two proven working animals to try and get whites, they took whites and bred them to whites to get them consistently. If they wanted new blood they weren't getting proven dogs from the best working stock, those breeders weren't letting their dogs breed to them. It just didn't happen to any appreciable level. So the quality of dog used to make Whites did have an impact on their working ability. I can see it when we do what we do.

But somehow I always hear about these dogs with more drive, more brains, more loyal, better structure, better health, etc, with all those things working against them. It doesn't add up to me on paper, and in working situations, well it just verifies it.

Sorry I take such offense to that, like I said I don't much appreciate lip service being paid to the reputation that GSD's have built for themselves. To me its not much different than wolf hybrid breeders saying that way back when there was an infusion of wolf blood to gsd's so their dogs are "super" dogs as well. The SV and Max were very clear on this, they hated that practice, they despised it, they threw people out that did it. They knew there was nothing to be added to the GSD by adding wolf blood except for animals that were very shy of people, had no biddabilty towards people, and didn't like captivity. Yet I can google or you can, and see what these breeders are saying about how their dogs are the this and that because Max himself used wolf blood to create the gsd. I think if you read his book, you'll come away with a different conclusion than they're claiming, but if you haven't you might be inclined to believe they hype.