Say No To Silver Labs

Of all the silver lab pictures I've seen, I've not once seen one that looks like it has weim in it. They are a dilute chocolate lab and fit the standard to a tee. Its like saying a brindle dalmatian has pit bull in it.

Here's more:
At the end of the Twentieth Century, the frequency of silver (gray) labs began to increase in North America due to an increase in the number of chocolate labs in the gene pool of Labrador Retrievers. These Silver Labs in turn fueled an enormous controversy within the Labrador community.

Fortunately, by the advent of the Twenty-First Century, the controversy surrounding Silver Labs subsided except for a few remaining breeders of "standard" colors. These remaining opponents of Silver Labs are the K-9 version of the "Flat Earth Society". Unfortunately, those holdout breeders who refuse to acknowledge AKC's acceptance of silver labs, continue to confuse the general public by making unfounded accusations about the purity of the Silver Labs breeding. In an attempt to quiet the ranting of the more vocal opponents of Silver Labs, one breeder of silvers offered a $100,000.00 Silver Lab Challenge to any of these "experts" who wished to put their money where their mouth was concerning their accusations surrounding the ancestry of silver labs. And to the man, not one of those "experts" you see on the internet was willing to stand behind their Flat Earth accusations regarding Silver Labs.

Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?

DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.

Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.

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Originally Posted by IRescue452

Here's more:
At the end of the Twentieth Century, the frequency of silver (gray) labs began to increase in North America due to an increase in the number of chocolate labs in the gene pool of Labrador Retrievers. These Silver Labs in turn fueled an enormous controversy within the Labrador community.

Fortunately, by the advent of the Twenty-First Century, the controversy surrounding Silver Labs subsided except for a few remaining breeders of "standard" colors. These remaining opponents of Silver Labs are the K-9 version of the "Flat Earth Society". Unfortunately, those holdout breeders who refuse to acknowledge AKC's acceptance of silver labs, continue to confuse the general public by making unfounded accusations about the purity of the Silver Labs breeding. In an attempt to quiet the ranting of the more vocal opponents of Silver Labs, one breeder of silvers offered a $100,000.00 Silver Lab Challenge to any of these "experts" who wished to put their money where their mouth was concerning their accusations surrounding the ancestry of silver labs. And to the man, not one of those "experts" you see on the internet was willing to stand behind their Flat Earth accusations regarding Silver Labs.

Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?

DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.

Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.

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Silver Labs were registered as Silver both on the registration certificate and the AKC color charts until 1987. Breeders who could not produce Silver puppies protested to the AKC and they were only allowed to be registered as a shade of chocolate.

****Fact: Silver was NEVER listed as a color choice on puppy registration slips! Unfortunately it was common practice for the AKC to have a blank line for "other color" on ALL breeds' registration slips. This was before the computer age and it was easier for the AKC to use the same slip as some breeds come in any color. Also, uniformed pet buyers would register their puppies as whatever "they" interpretted it be such as blonde, golden, creme instead of the proper color yellow or liver, brown instead of chocolate. This is were the loop hole started and how the first Silvers were registered. The AKC standard has NEVER listed Silver as a recognized color.

****Fact: A shade of chocolate, which is deceiving to begin with, is the only way to register these crossbreds with AKC at this present time. Simply put, purebred Silver Labs do not exist!

****Fact: According to the AKC standard, the chocolate color can range from a light brown to dark brown. No where does it mention, Gray, Silver, or Blue/Gray pigmentation.

****Fact: A pedigree obtained from AKC on one particular "Silver" Lab (registered as chocolate), also showed that there has been radical inbreeding taking place amongst one breeder. Not only was this dog a result of a father to daughter breeding, the daughter was a result of a full brother to sister breeding! Thus, keeping the dilute "silver/Weimeraner" gene, while being able to pass DNA testing to determine parentage.

Reputable breeders are so adamant about Silver Labs because they saw their share of the market "fall through the floor when chocolates became popular." These "ethical" breeders have resorted to killing any Silver puppies to protect their investment in the black and yellow bloodlines.

****Fact: This statement is so silly. First of all, breeders dedicated to the Labrador Retriever don't breed dogs according to any "market". Secondly, ethical breeders don't breed just to make money so this contradictory. Mismarked puppies do occur in Labs and have done so for decades, this is well documented. Reputable breeders simply sell these puppies as pets. So to say that "ethical" breeders have covered up the Silvers by killing them to protect their black and yellow investments is ridiculous, especially since Silver breeders say that their color comes from chocolates. If it is from the chocolates, then what and how would they be protecting blacks and yellows that supposedly don't carry the gene for Silver in the first place?

Silver Lab breeders would have you believe that Silver or gray Labs have been mentioned since people began writing about Labs.

****Fact: In all the books that this author has read, and believe me, it has been many from a range from the 1960's to present. From pet books to those written by very experienced, knowledgeable and reputable breeders all including an in-depth history on the Lab since its beginning. NEVER has this author seen a thoroughly "gray" adult Lab mentioned! If this were a true color gene that is associated with the recessive chocolate color, then it would have been around since the beginning, something that simply has never been established. This author would really like to know what literature these breeders are getting their information from. It would have been nice to have included a credit to certain books that mention adult "gray" Labs.

Ignorant and/or jealous breeders accuse the Silver Labs of being a cross between Labs and other breed(s). These accusations are based on finacial motives.

****Fact: This is a common accusation by knowledgeable breeders who have many, many years breeding Labradors true to the written standard as approved by the AKC which has NEVER acknowledged a Silver Lab. Breeders who make such statements about others being ignorant or jealous about this color only have profit on their mind. Breeding for a specific "rare" feature that is not part of the Lab's history is only thinking of the pocket book, as mentioned on the home page. The knowledgeable and reputable breeder of Labradors is concerned for the breed and its preservation. Making money is the furthest thing from their mind. Breeding quality Labradors for the improvement, betterment and preservation are their only goals! It has nothing to do with jealously and everything to do with keeping the Lab pure and protecting the original colors of the Lab: Black, yellow and chocolate.

One breeder has even gone so far as to offer a Silver Lab Challenge and will give anyone $100,000 to any "expert" that can disprove their Silver Labs are anything but purebred.

****Fact: DNA testing can only prove the parents. IT CANNOT INDENTIFY DIFFERENT BREEDS. Therefore, since some breeders have been duping the public with rare and exotic AKC Silvers for many generations with their inbred mixes, DNA can only confirm the parents of a puppy in question. It cannot go back further generations needed to prove that Weimeraners were introduced into the Lab gene pool. Therefore, no it cannot be proven. However, anyone with a trained eye in dog breeds and conformation can tell that these dogs are indeed crossbreds.

Here is the most probable scenario of how the Silver(Dilute)Gene was introduced: A litter in which there are both chocolate and "silver" pups. The owner marks the Other color box and puts down "silver". The AKC field rep goes out to see the litter. The sire IS a registered chocolate. The dam IS a registered chocolate. The DNA test proves all the pups, including the 3 "silver" ones are from those two parents. AKC does NOT have a choice but to register the puppies. They are from two registered Labs. Their position is that color ALONE can not designate the puppy as not purebred. In the case of the silvers, they were genetically proven to be from the parents stated on the registration application, so they had to be registerable as purebred!!! The real problem is that several generations earlier, some chocolate pups that were most likely sired by a Weim were registered as Labs because the breeder didn't know about the mismating. The silver color can be traced to a single line (and most likely a single litter) that was then linebred and eventually produced the silver pups. No where along the line was there an OBVIOUS attempt to bend the rules, but since AKC only requires the signatures of the sire and dam owners to register a litter, nothing can be done about it now. The error was set in the breed before DNA testing was being done, so it is really hard to undo it now. In closing, anytime someone tries to sell you something that is rare and exotic for an exorbitant amount of money, is only in it for one reason. MONEY. These Silver breeders are very defensive and secretive about "their" bloodlines. Some charge for information packets and if you ask any questions about their dogs, you will get a rude response. "Just buy the packet, so I can make money!" A reputable breeder will be extremely open and honest with puppy buyers and most have pictures AND pedigrees of their dogs on their websites to share with all who are interested. So why are these Silver breeders so defensive and secretive? Something to hide? They definitely do not have their dogs' and the breed's best interest in mind.

newsflash! breeding for chocolate, yellow, and black IS breeding for COLOUR. if you were truly against breeding for colour then it would not even be factored into the equation, UNLESS it posed a health risk, but silver colour and mismarks dont affect the dogs ability to pick up a duck, until it inhibates the dogs ability to work, WHO CARES.

Thank you cali. I don't understand why these people are so against breeding a black and tan lab or any other mismark. Its still a quality lab. Some people say they should be spayed or neutered for population reasons, but the breeder could just as well produce as many puppies in black as they could in an "unaccepted" colour. If the puppies are black, yellow, or chocolate than its ok to add to the population, but not if they are another colour? None of the arguements I've seen on this thread are logical.

My uneducated take on the situation:

There are silver labs that are beautiful purebreds no better or worse than any other lab based simply on the color of their fur. There are some breeders who accept this and are willing to include silvers in their breeding programs like any other color.

There are some silver labs created by crossbreeding to take a shortcut to this rare and beautiful variation. These dogs are, of course, no better or worse than any other lab mix, though I have some serious reservations about the breeders they come from.

And then there are a lot of breeders who won't accept any from the first group because the second group exists, and seems to be trying to convince people they are greatly inferior to other labs. This is beginning to give me some reservations baout these breeders as well.

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Originally Posted by IRescue452

Thank you cali. I don't understand why these people are so against breeding a black and tan lab or any other mismark. Its still a quality lab. Some people say they should be spayed or neutered for population reasons, but the breeder could just as well produce as many puppies in black as they could in an "unaccepted" colour. If the puppies are black, yellow, or chocolate than its ok to add to the population, but not if they are another colour? None of the arguements I've seen on this thread are logical.

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the reason why reputable breeders and parent club of the breed are so against to the silver color is because there's a breed standard that is very specific about coloring and mismarks.

this standard was made for people to know how a lab should look like, not for some unethical bunch of people who make a living out of genetical alterations. i personally think that it's unffair to responsible and professional breeders that this people get away with it, just because there are ignorant and extreme dog lovers who wouldn't see the point. that means that a life devoted to improve the breed is useless, because in the end those are just dogs.

so you're telling me that (for example) if someone was to destroy the great dane as a breed, by making crosses with chihuahuas and creating a new breed called "miniature great dane", it would still be okay? after all, they're still dogs which deserve to be loved and it's a trendy new breed. a few generations later, you would be able to get a miniature great dane from two pure bred great danes.

just because people tend to have dogs and make stupid breedings, doesn't mean that people should fall for the lie and let this keep happening.
there's a reason for everything. our reason, as responsible breeders that we are, is to keep the breed as it should be, as how the pioneers of the breed intended it to be. they deserve our respect for their work of a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by cali

newsflash! breeding for chocolate, yellow, and black IS breeding for COLOUR. if you were truly against breeding for colour then it would not even be factored into the equation, UNLESS it posed a health risk, but silver colour and mismarks dont affect the dogs ability to pick up a duck, until it inhibates the dogs ability to work, WHO CARES.

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ok...are you familiar to the breed standard at all?

black yellow and chocolate are the accepted colors. we do not breed for color, since black can be bred to yellow and chocolates. we do not breed to get just a color, we breed to get a type.

there's a reason why they are called "mismarks". a mismark if different from the permissible white marks.

silver is not an accepted color, not in the US, not in europe, not in latinamerica, not in australia, NOWHERE.

here's a bit of information about the breed standard regarding to coat and color:

Coat
The coat is a distinctive feature of the Labrador Retriever. It should be short, straight and very dense, giving a fairly hard feeling to the hand. The Labrador should have a soft, weather-resistant undercoat that provides protection from water, cold and all types of ground cover A slight wave down the back is permissible. Woolly coats, soft silky coats, and sparse slick coats are not typical of the breed, and should be severely penalized.

Color
The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black - Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow - Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.

Disqualifications
Any deviation from the height prescribed in the Standard.
A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment.
Eye rims without pigment.
Docking or otherwise altering the length or natural carriage of the tail.
Any other color or a combination of colors other than black, yellow or chocolate as described in the Standard.


Approved February 12, 1994
Effective March 31, 1994
the labrador retriever club, Inc. (AKC parent club of the labrador retriever breed)

this is what a lab should look like
http://www.dickendall.com/clark7.jpg
http://www.dickendall.com/burly5.jpg
http://www.belquest.com/coffeestand.jpg

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Originally Posted by cali

I did read through the thread, and I personally dont belive that they are crossed with Weims, there is evidence supposrting both sides, its up to each individual what they choose to believe. some say silver is not geneticly possable..so? we dont know everything yet, I own a dog who's colours are not geneticly possable according to current knowledge, I also have a guinea pig whos colours are not geneticly possable by cirrent knowledge. just because something is not possable by current knowledge hardly means its not possable, because there is a LOT in this world that we dont understand.

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EXACTLY!!

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Did you read through this thread? These dogs are most likely bred with Weimeraner. If they are mixed breeds, do you still support it?

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Remember, It's not proven...This is just an opionin :)

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is to keep the breed as it should be, as how the pioneers of the breed intended it to be. they deserve our respect for their work of a lifetime.

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your right the pioneers do deserve our respect and they deserve to have there breeds unchanged. too bad for you that they were bred to WORK a certain way, not LOOK a certain way.

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Originally Posted by cali

newsflash! breeding for chocolate, yellow, and black IS breeding for COLOUR. if you were truly against breeding for colour then it would not even be factored into the equation, UNLESS it posed a health risk, but silver colour and mismarks dont affect the dogs ability to pick up a duck, until it inhibates the dogs ability to work, WHO CARES.

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I have never heard of a Silver Lab coming from a breeding of two normal color Labs by reputable breeders. If this has happened, correct me please. But at this point it is still up in the air as to where the silver comes from -- is it natural or does it come from Weims?

Until we know this for sure there is no good reason to breed Silver Labs. However, if this color is proved to be carried by Labs than I see no reason to exclude them from breeding programs.

You are right about this mismarks, however most people who want a Lab want it to LOOK like a Lab. I for one would not buy from a breeder who is breeding mis-marked dogs, because if I am putting out thousands of dollars for it I want it to look the way it's supposed to. If one crops up in a litter, fine, but don't breed it. Conformation preserves the breed so that it will look the same 100 years from now.

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Originally Posted by CagneyDog

Remember, It's not proven...This is just an opionin :)

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Exactly, it's not proven. You shouldn't breed Silver Labs if you can't prove they aren't bred with Weimeraner. There is no proof at the moment. I for one do not like Weimeraners and do not want my Lab to have Weim in it.

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Conformation preserves the breed so that it will look the same 100 years from now.

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haha thats the funnest thing I have ever heard! have you SEEN the dogs from even 50? 60? years ago they look NOTHING like the the dogs currently look.

there is only one way to truly preserve a breed. and that is to breed for working ability. why? because if dogs had a certain look it was a direct result of their work, if you start breeding only for the look then you loose the ability as well as start over emphizing featurs. if you breed for the work, you keep the look AND the ability. case in point I found a pictures of the very first cattle working border collie..the dog is nearly itentical to misty..a current cattle bred BC.

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Originally Posted by cali

your right the pioneers do deserve our respect and they deserve to have there breeds unchanged. too bad for you that they were bred to WORK a certain way, not LOOK a certain way.

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i'm sorry to let you down, but they're made to retrieve as well as to look. there are tons of breeds which can retrieve, there are also mutts which can retrieve. the looks of the labrador are what makes them unique, a single breed.

and yet there are show bred and feild bred which look nothing alike aint that funny?

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Originally Posted by cali

your right the pioneers do deserve our respect and they deserve to have there breeds unchanged. too bad for you that they were bred to WORK a certain way, not LOOK a certain way.

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This isn't directed at you Cali I just wanted to quote you.

The Labs actually do look very different now than when they were first bred. The Field Labs are more what the original Labs looked like. I love Show Labs though they are not for me, as they are not really bred to do anything in most cases (but not all). Conformationally sounds Labs are generally bred for companionship. I cannot name one Lab breeder who shows their dogs in conformation that also runs field trials. This really bothers me, to tell you the truth, because the dogs are bred basically to look pretty. They are in the sporting group for a reason!

There is talk to split the breed, because the two types are so different. I am for it but also against it, because I know that the Field Labs will start to be bred for looks only, and that is not what the breed is there for. However Field Labs are so diverse in looks that it would be nice for breeders to have to adhere to a standard as well as hunting ability.