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Oh you mean, one of the two PM's I sent you like way back in 2000. I have only PM'ed you twice, at least, according to my PM box.
Hmmmm....I wasn't a member in 2000. And considering that the one you sent me instructing me to get a sex toy was about the war, I imagine it was fairly recently.
I dont agree with a veegan diet for animals. but the longest living dog was border collie on a vegan diet so I cant say it is bad.
I must admit, I do like somethings PETA does. But mostly, I don't care for the organization. I was on the website a while back and read a huge article about circus animal abuse...which made me sad, and now I refuse to go to the circus. Don't worry, I won't say any details.
There were also some other articles which made me think once or twice, and then there were some that made me laugh until my stomach cramped. :p :)
Okay I wanted this to be clarified. A few other people informed me on what the real story was relating to this comment:
"There were some dogs on a show on Animal Planet that went blind from a vegetarian diet (sorry I can't give more details because I forgot what show it was)."
Im suspecting this is what Aly was probably thinking of. On Animal Planet recently, (I taped this actually, because I remember hearing the commercial, plus I love the show, but havent watched yet, so I didn’t associate it with Aly’s post until my friend who saw it told me about it today after reading Aly’s post), on the series, Animal Precinct, there was a woman who took in stray CATS (not dogs) because she didnt want them to be homeless, and what she was doing, was feeding them like, a human vegetarian diet, of I think just potatoes and rice or something, so not only was that not nutritionally complete, but they didnt like it, so they were barely eating any of it. So they became really thin, and I think neighbours saw and reported it. When the ASPC went to assess the situation they discovered that she didnt really want the cats but she didnt want them to be homeless. She had way too many than she could handle in the first place, there were no litter boxes even. She didnt know that they needed taurine to survive (lack of taurine is what eventually causes blindness in cats). So they took the cats off her hands, and they all were treated, fed, etc and all of them lived. Only one was totally blind and then one other was partially blind.
SO, my point is, it was because not only were they not getting enough food, but they weren't getting the nutrients that they need, all of which are in vegan dog & cats foods like Evolution and Vegepet, etc. So I dont want anyone to think that situation is a common one. It was just a case of someone who didnt know what they were doing, someone who was naive and irresponsible.
I saw that show too. But the one I was referring to was with dogs.
The lady was not how you make her out to be. She had problems mentally which was SO VERY OBVIOUS! These people DO NOT understand what they are doing!
They did not take all her cats away, they left the dog and a few of her original cats. The dog was fat and healthy, the cats were fed rice mixed with the canned cat food she had, as well as potatoes. She was trying to save money by mixing the canned food with the rice. They people do not need to be scolded, they need to be helped and educated. It was obvious she wasn't trying to starve them, she just didn't know better. Now that she knows and has less cats she can properly care for them and feed them a better diet. As you know the lady was a vegetarian and was trying to make her cats vegetarians as well gradually, but she didn't know it was bad for them. Now she knows, the cats are taken care of and hopefully they will keep an eye on the lady etc.
As far as meat goes, I LOVE meat!!! :D
Yes as most people I hate the way meat animals are raised but NOT ALL are raised that way. Our meat comes from free range chickens and cattle. The meat we eat is organic. The animals are not pumped with antibiotics and our diary cows are not impregnated just for milk, so you Vegan need to do more research. Think about it, is there really ANY humane way to kill an animal besides euthanasia by needle? I don't think so. But these animals are here for us to consume so we eat them. GOD made them for us to eat, to raise etc.
I could not live without meat, or I would go crazy. I crave the taste of it! I love chicken, corned beef (don't really like any other kind of beef besides corned beef) pork etc. When I buy a new house I want to raise my own food. I want to have my own chickens, both for meat and eggs, dairy cows which I could get milk of of if they are pregnant, and possibly my own cattle. I don't really enjoy the taste of pork but if I did want to eat some I would rather it come from my house than a slaughter house.
Poeple hunt, that is how we have always lived. Deer, Elk and other animals are also consumed. Yes they don't die pleasent but they are at least EATEN, not wasted, and most hunters also use the pelts or fur as well.
To me being Vegan is just weird, but that is my opinion. I can't see not doing something that is natural to us humans. We have eaten meat for so long and LIVED, why stop now? I love cheese and milk. As far as Humans being the only ones who drink the milk of other species that is NOT true. I have seen several racoons drinking the milk of diary cows. Yes they don't do this everyday but they don't have the access to teats 24/7. They don't know how to pump milk from a cow and stick it in a glass, if they could I am sure they would do it. Same as cats. Cats drink milk, you know they would drink a lot more if they could find it in the wild. These racoons are wild, feeding of the milk on the diary cows. So how can you say we are the only ones? That makes no sense. :rolleyes:
This is not intended to offend anyone. I love animals & do eat some meats, not store bought though (fresh free range & fresh farm animals w/ no additives) & my dad was a butcher when I was growing up so not eating meats in my house was pure sin!. I highly respect vegans but it is just something I personally can not do.
Personally I would not deprive my animals from meat. I understand dogs are omnivores but that means they also eat meat. If a lot of research is done & you can provide your animal with a balanced healthy vegan diet than go for it. I really hope that people that do feed vegan diets to their animals have a vet that specializes in that & has regular checkups & tests done to make sure the animal is in great health.
Just my 2 cents
luckies4me, I have not seen the show and I was just typing exactly what my friend told me happened. I didnt mean to say she was bad, I just wanted to make it clear that that story was an extreme one and isnt a good argument against feeding pets a vegan diet.
And as for your other post... okay, first of all, theres nothing regulating free range animals. theres no definition of free range. it usually just means the animals arent in cages, but they are jammed into a barn with hundreds of other chickens, they dont feel the grass, they dont live normal lives. so perhaps youre the one who needs to do more research. and besides theres more to being vegan than that. a lot of vegans, myself being one of them, feel it isnt right to use animals as products. They deserve to be treated with respect, and they arent here simply so humans can utilize them. And secondly, raising livestock creates enormous strain on our environment. I have already been through all of this in my posts, and please go to the links I posted earlier in this thread! There is tons of info at off of them, way better than I could ever repeat/rememeber.. Pretty much all those links talk about the ethics, the health and the environmental reasons. So please go read that before you start writing more uninformed replies. And here is a quote from a recent article on vegetarianism publish in Time magazine:
"Pimentel argues that vegetarianism is much more environment-friendly than diets revolving around meat. 'In terms of caloric content, the grain consumed by American livestock could feed 800 million people—and, if exported, would boost the U.S. trade balance by $80 billion a year.' Grain-fed livestock consume 100,000 liters of water for every kilogram of food they produce, compared with 2,000 liters for soybeans. Animal protein also demands tremendous expenditures of fossil-fuel energy—eight times as much as for a comparable amount of plant protein. Put another way, says Pimentel, the average omnivore diet burns the equivalent of a gallon of gas per day—twice what it takes to produce a vegan diet. And the U.S. livestock population—cattle, chickens, turkeys, lambs, pigs and the rest—consumes five times as much grain as the U.S. human population. But then there are 7 billion of them; they outnumber us 25 to 1."
And heres some links to info about free range myths:
http://www.upc-online.org/freerange.html
and:
“Most consumers believe "free-range" hens and cows live happily and peacefully until they are slaughtered. But no laws or standards regulate the use of terms like "free-range" and "free-roaming." Unfortunately, even these vague claims are rarely verified; the USDA relies "upon producer testimonials to support the accuracy of these claims," which are usually unsubstantiated. In fact, common cruel industry practices used in factory farms, such as debeaking, forced molting, and literally throwing away male chicks at birth, also take place at many "free-range" farms. Of course all the animals are slaughtered whenever it is deemed most profitable. According to The Washington Post Magazine, the term "free-range," especially in the case of birds, "doesn’t really tell you anything about the [animal’s] quality of life, nor does it even assure that the animal actually goes outdoors." From the "free-range" hen who smells fresh air for the first time on the way to the slaughterhouse to the "humanely raised" dairy cow whose male baby is taken away from her at birth and sold to veal farmers, all animals raised for food suffer and are exploited. Even small, family-run dairy farms often have no choice but to send their older cows to slaughter and their newborn males to veal farms.”
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/F...5&Category=Veg
Now I don’t know, maybe not all free-range farms are like this, but there really isnt anyway to know. And besides, the vast majority of meat & dairy & eggs etc in the world are raised on factory farms. They distribute all over the place. How do you know the meat or eggs or milk in the food you eat at a restaurant wants from a slaughterhouse? Or the milk and eggs in the baked goods, or other foods you buy from the store pre-made arent from a factory farm? See what I mean? AND there are lots of health issues involved in consuming animal products. There have been many studies that strongly link consuming meat, dairy, eggs, etc to many health problems, such as heart disease, some cancers, osteoporosis, etc. I know Kater knows a lot about this, more than I do! (Please speak up dude! lol) And I really dont think its fair to bring God into it because there are a lot of people who dont believe in God, people who believe god did different things than other people believe, etc etc. Its just opinion. But here is one site you might be interested in:
http://www.jesusveg.com/ -religion & vegetarianism
“Was Jesus really a vegetarian?
Many biblical scholars believe that Jesus was a vegetarian. Jesus’ message is one of love and compassion, and there is nothing loving or compassionate about factory farms and slaughterhouses, where billions of animals live miserable lives and die violent, bloody deaths. Jesus mandates kindness, mercy, compassion, and love for all God’s creation. He would be appalled by the suffering that we inflict on animals just to indulge our acquired taste for their flesh.
We all have a choice. When we sit down to eat, we can add to the level of violence, misery, and death in the world, or we can respect God’s creation with a vegetarian diet.”
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/F...5&Category=Veg
As for hunters.. not many people today hunt for their food. And I dont have any respect or tolerance for hunters. Native Americans however, I can respect. They treated the animals they killed with respect and they used every last bit of it. They didnt over kill, they didnt kill for "fun", they respect the earth.
"To me being Vegan is just weird, but that is my opinion. I can't see not doing something that is natural to us humans. We have eaten meat for so long and LIVED, why stop now?"
There are some people who dont think eating meat is natural, just so you know. And as I said, there have been lots of studies that strongly suggest eating animal products isnt very healthy. (Please visit the links I posted earlier in the thread..) And this is one reason why a lot of people dont think its natural, there are other reasons too, but Im just saying, thats one reason some people choose veganism.
"Q: People have always eaten animal products. Why should we stop now?
A: Never in human history have people eaten as many animal products as we do now. Today, rich and poor can afford to eat these products, largely as a result of the cost-cutting methods used to raise "food" animals. Present-day factory farms inflict massive, large-scale suffering of a magnitude never before seen in agricultural practices. In addition, the human population is larger today than ever before. Billions of people eating meat means that billions of tons of water and grain are being diverted from the world’s poor people and fed to the livestock of the rich; the resultant billions of pounds of manure are destroying our topsoil, drinking water, and ozone layer. In addition, today we not only have medical evidence of the health benefits of a plant-based diet, we also have many easily accessible products, such as tofu, tempeh, nondairy milk, yogurt, cheese, and ice cream, and many other healthful and delicious products that make the switch to a vegan diet easy and delicious"
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/F...5&Category=Veg
As for your milk comment... Okay, it is NOT NATURAL for cats or raccoons to drink milk after theyve been weaned, & especially not the milk of another animal. Your raccoon example is a rare one. There are NO DAIRY COWS in a raccoon's natural environment. And the only reason cats drink milk is because people feed it to them. It is not normal for animals to drink milk after birth. It may taste good, but it’s not necessary or natural.
And its not like cows always have milk in them. They are just like any other female mammal. They only produce milk when they have babies. People artificially inseminate them make them lactate. What is natural about that? And where do you think those babies go when they are born? Veal. And I really do not understand how it got started with cows.. Why not other animals? Maybe its easiest.. I dont know. But I personally feel it isnt natural. (That is just my opinion though, and there are many other reasons why not to drink milk as I have already stated).
And! its not good to feed your cats very much milk because most cats are lactose intolerant.:
"Feeding Milk
Milk is not an essential part of a kitten's diet once she has been weaned. Many cats enjoy consuming a saucerful of milk, but not all cats can tolerate this in their diet. Some adult cats (like some humans) have trouble digesting milk due to a lack of the enzyme, which is required for digestion of the milk sugar lactose, and may develop diarrhea. These cats are lactose-intolerant. If you are not sure whether your cat can tolerate milk, try it out by diluting the milk with water before you offer it to her for the first time."
http://www.waltham.com/index.html?co...s/kittens.html
"We see cats drinking milk in commercials, old tv shows and the like. But the fact of the matter is that most cats are lactose intolerant. That means that they can't digest the sugars in milk. Milk also has very little to no nutritional value for cats."
http://www.21cats.org/care/milk.html
"Myth: Cats Need Milk
It is a heart-warming image: It's cold outside, a warm fire is blazing in the fireplace and your cat is lapping up cream from a saucer. But milk products may cause digestive problems a few hours later. Milk is a good source of water and energy-producing carbohydrates, but it does not contain all the other nutrients a cat needs to stay healthy. Many cats are lactose-intolerant - they don't have the enzyme that digests lactose, a milk-sugar component of milk.
Drinking milk can cause loose stools and diarrhea, which strips liquids and nutrients from you cat's system. Milk does not have a place in a cat's diet and should be avoided."
http://www.ragdoll-cats.com/Myths.htm
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Okay, Im adding the links to make it more convenient. PLEASE VISIT:
http://veganaction.org/
http://www.veganoutreach.org
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/traub/faqvegan.html
http://www.emagazine.com/january-fe.../0102feat1.html
http://www.afa-online.org/vegan.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story.html
First off I don't need to do more research. I have done TONS and I mean TONS of research on meat and cruelty etc. Almost all the links you have posted I have already been to about a gazillion times.
I DO know where my meat comes from. Our chickens are raised about 30 minutes away on a "free range" farm, meaning they have about 3 acrres to themselves with seperate feeding areas, living quarters etc. They are not fed pestisides and fed organically grown grain as well. My beef comes from right outside the city limits from Lone Pine Farms, where I get most of my vegetables, especially squash and corn. I have seen their beef cattle, they live VERY well! You can even go there everyday and feed them if you want. Their diary goats and cows are out for you to photograph and or feed. They also have llama milk, ostrich eggs and jerky, horse milk soap etc. Their animals are never fed antibitiotics. Our roosters have their beaks, and are sold as pets or as breeders and a lot of them are shown at our local 4H fairs. Our older cows get retired, yes you heard right, to local farms as pets or they stay at the farm until their death. They do not sell veal, or slaughter male cows. The babies stay with their mother until they are able to go outside on their own. Anyone can visit the farm and they are open everyday. The most busy time of year is Holloween though when everyone comes to the Corn Maze.
I don't know if you have ever been to Eugene Oregon, but we are the land of the hippies. Even our main Supermarket here is all organic, Price Choppers Market of Choice. Most of our clothes are made out of hemp etc. Now I am not a hippy, but I do appreciate eating healthy food. I have lived this long on meat and I am sure I will live a lot longer unless I get ran over by a bus. I don't eat meat often but when I do I like to know where it comes from.
As far as eating at restraunts, most of the places around here get their meat locally and if not well oh well. I am not going to drill a place about where their meat comes from. They have a job to do, and that is to feed me, and if it tastes good I am satified. :D
Most of my eggs come from the neighbor who lives nextdoor to our house. They are great egg layers but are also pets. Of course they don't lay eggs all the time, so when I can't any from her I go to the Saturday Market.
As far as God, yes I can bring him into this. Of course everyone doesn't believe in God, but there is a reason why we and animals (food) are here. Why is it so bad for humans to eat animals (we are born to eat meat) and not for other animals to eat them? Bobcat, Cougar, bear etc. also eat animals. I don't hear people saying that those animals are being cruel because they eat meat??? That is what we do, we ear plant AND animals, period! If you chose not to that's fine, but I chose to eat what is provided for me and am very thankful for it.
As far as posting info on cats and milk. I think everyone and their mother knows that they aren't supposed to get it! I am not 12, it's just something most people know. I am a vet tech, I know this stuff. That is why their are special milk replacers on the market for kittens, like KMR and Esbilac. I have raised several orphaned kittens in my day. My cats have enough dietary issues already for me to be giving them milk.
The point is, yes it's not healthy for them to drink it all the time or even at all, but the fact is they still drink it! I never said it was natural, I just said they do it, and if in the wild they had the chance to come across it, they WOULD drink it! Racoons can be seen drinking milk from diary cows all the time. Yes the dairy cows were not always there, but racoons are opportunistic animals, and if there is a dairy farm nearby you better believe if they come across a cow they will milk it! I don't even give my cats milk....well sometimes I let them lick the leftover milk from my cereal bowl, but that's it. Almost everything you are typing I already know and I am sure a lot of other people do to. Ask how many people here on this board give their cat milk? I am sure almost all of them know it is bad for cats to drink it.
As far as diseases and cancer goes, if you have a well balanced diet and don't eat meat all the time you will stay healthy, unless you have bad genes. I don't eat meat much, most of what I eat is vegetables and pastas, but I do eat meat about twice a week, mostly fish and chicken. In limited amounts you can be healthy eating meat. I thin kit is funny how you always point out how bad a meat based diet is but always fail to show the side of vegetarianism that is bad. Some people cannot absorb all the nutrients from pills, some are allergic to peanuts etc. Anyway you eat, there can ALWAYS be complications. What about vegetables that have insectiside sprayed on them that people cosume? You think it is healthy for the air to be spraying chemicles to protect the precious plants all the time? Do you eat organic veggies and fruits? If not how do you know your body isn't binding up deadly chemicles in your kidneys or liver? The point is, any diet can be healthy if you watch what you eat and live right. And that's all there is to it, it's called a BALANCED diet!
Also cows are not the only animals that provide milk. Milk also comes from yack, goats, llama and even camel milk! Some people are even utilizing the milk from guanacos, which is said to be healthier than cows milk.
So, you are basically saying hunters now a days don't give respect to animals and they don't use every last bit of the animal? Poachers and unethical hunters don't, but ethnical hunters do. Each year hunting organizations (Ducks Unlimited, Whitetails Unlimited, etc) spend millions of dollars funding for wildlife conservation, wildlife medical treatment, etc. If it weren't for hunters, the wild turkey would be extinct- it was hunters who donated money to the National Wild Turkey Federation to fund for their comeback, which is now 4.2 million strong.Quote:
Originally posted by veegan
[B]As for hunters.. not many people today hunt for their food. And I dont have any respect or tolerance for hunters. Native Americans however, I can respect. They treated the animals they killed with respect and they used every last bit of it. They didnt over kill, they didnt kill for "fun", they respect the earth.
My father and I have 100% respect for all the animals we hunt. We also use just about everything from the animal. We also donate money each year to fund for wildlife conservation. Once and a while we donate our game to the local food pantry to help feed the poor.
Don't mean to make you mad/start an argument, and sorry if I read your post wrong. I just wanted to state my facts/opinions as a hunter. Thanks. :)
That's a good point, I really didn't think about that! :DQuote:
Originally posted by luckies4me
Also cows are not the only animals that provide milk. Milk also comes from yack, goats, llama and even camel milk! Some people are even utilizing the milk from guanacos, which is said to be healthier than cows milk.
Well Im glad you know where your food comes from and have been there. More people should be doing the same. But the vast majority of the world does not, and there are simply not enough farms that are good like the one you go to, and the demand for animal products is so high that there could not be enough farms like that to make everyone happy. Unless people start lessening their meat intake to like you said you do, only a few times a week or less there will never be a way to produce enough food without having factory farms.
And again, raising livestock for food creates a horrendous strain on the environment.
And Im not trying to make you a vegetarian, it is a choice each person has to make. Im simply writing the facts and clarifying for the people who have posted here why vegans choose to be vegans. Im glad you are aware of the issues, and that is fine if you have decided that it is not for you. I respect your decision as I hope you respect mine. However, the majority of our society DO NOT know these things.
”As far as eating at restraunts, most of the places around here get their meat locally and if not well oh well. I am not going to drill a place about where their meat comes from. They have a job to do, and that is to feed me, and if it tastes good I am satified.”
Yeah “oh well”. “If it tastes good I am satisfied”. Right. That’s pretty much the attitude most people have about eating meat and factory farms. Real compassionate.
”As far as God, yes I can bring him into this. Of course everyone doesn't believe in God, but there is a reason why we and animals (food) are here. Why is it so bad for humans to eat animals (we are born to eat meat) and not for other animals to eat them? Bobcat, Cougar, bear etc. also eat animals. I don't hear people saying that those animals are being cruel because they eat meat??? That is what we do, we ear plant AND animals, period! If you chose not to that's fine, but I chose to eat what is provided for me and am very thankful for it.”
Like I said.. that is just opinion. Just like it is opinion that some people believe the opposite.
And no those animals arent being cruel because they don’t have the ability to make moral and ethical decisions. I never said its cruel to eat meat, I said the way animals are being treated at MOST farms (almost all farms) is cruel, and more people should be aware of it, because they arent.
“As far as posting info on cats and milk. I think everyone and their mother knows that they aren't supposed to get it! I am not 12, it's just something most people know. I am a vet tech, I know this stuff.”
And I have to disagree. Most of the people Ive talked to when they hear that cats are lactose intolerant are very surprised. And I never said you were 12, I never implied you were 12. And how should I know you’re a vet tech? And what does any of that have to do with anything?
”The point is, yes it's not healthy for them to drink it all the time or even at all, but the fact is they still drink it! I never said it was natural, I just said they do it, and if in the wild they had the chance to come across it, they WOULD drink it! Racoons can be seen drinking milk from diary cows all the time. Yes the dairy cows were not always there, but racoons are opportunistic animals, and if there is a dairy farm nearby you better believe if they come across a cow they will milk it! I don't even give my cats milk....well sometimes I let them lick the leftover milk from my cereal bowl, but that's it.”
Well my point is, it isnt in the wild for a reason, because they don’t need it. Its not normal, its not HEALTHY. Maybe they would drink it if it was there, maybe not. But its not there because its not natural. That is just a hypothetical situation that would never happen.
”I thin kit is funny how you always point out how bad a meat based diet is but always fail to show the side of vegetarianism that is bad. Some people cannot absorb all the nutrients from pills, some are allergic to peanuts etc. Anyway you eat, there can ALWAYS be complications. What about vegetables that have insectiside sprayed on them that people cosume? You think it is healthy for the air to be spraying chemicles to protect the precious plants all the time? Do you eat organic veggies and fruits? If not how do you know your body isn't binding up deadly chemicles in your kidneys or liver? The point is, any diet can be healthy if you watch what you eat and live right. And that's all there is to eat, it's called a BALANCED diet!”
Yes, there are ways to be unhealthy on a vegetarian diet, but in different ways. If you don’t balance your diet right on a vegetarian diet then you will have problems, But with animal products, there have been many studies linking consumption of animal products to serious health problems like heart disease, cancer, etc. Im not talking about allergic reactions. And I don’t think vegetarians allergic to peanuts eat only peanuts first of all.. And they arent going to be eating peanuts if they are allergic. And yes I do eat organic produce, and no I do not, (nor did I ever say I did), believe spraying pesticides is healthy. Most vegans are against that and buy organic products.
“Also cows are not the only animals that provide milk. Milk also comes from yack, goats, llama and even camel milk! Some people are even utilizing the milk from guanacos, which is said to be healthier than cows milk.”
I know that, but cows milk is the most popular. It was just an example. I don’t understand why any of it is used.