Oprah to investigate abuse at puppy mills REAIR May 29

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Originally Posted by Ginger's Mom

I am actually very good at saying things with a straight face. Especially when I have seen so many people find that their pound puppies weren't physically fit enough to run and play. Of course they love their dogs and continue to do whatever is necessary to keep them healthy comfortable and safe. They will continue to go the the shelter and support the shelter, but when looking for a dog for a purpose, they will find someone who knows all of the intricacies of proper breeding. Let us hope that dog breeds don't all tangle into a mash of dogs found at shelters with no identifying breed characteristics or health standards.

Personally, I would much rather get rid of all of the puppy mills, backyard breeders, and unaltered pet/multi-breed dogs out there. But, you go ahead and continue your cry against responsible breeding. Maybe you will get your wish one day, and all of the reputable breeds will cease to exist. I, personally, would be shocked if that put an end (or even made a significant dent in) the need for animal shelters, and yes even euthanasia. But please do go on and continue to enjoy that "attitude" of yours. It seems to be working well.

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Not trying to be rude or anything but are you saying that all shelter dogs are unhealthy? It sounds as though you are trying to stop people from adopting from a shelter... My two aren't they are very healthy and I'm proud of them. I wouldn't trade them for any purebred and I will never ever go to a breeder just because in my heart I know if I do a shelter dog dies. My dog Lucy is very energetic and healthy she runs beside my bike. She is definatly Physically fit enough to run and play.

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It sounds as though you are trying to stop people from adopting from a shelter...

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No I am not. You quoted the whole post but didn't read the whole post. As I said in the post they continue to support and work with the animal shelter. As I have said in earlier posts both of my girls are rescues, and my next dog will be also. But as I have also said repeatedly, until most people are sick of hearing me say it in this thread, is that if you are going to get a dog for a purpose, it is nice to have breeders that are actually doing their homework, spending their money and taking their time to make sure that the dog is fit to perform the work it will be doing. Yes, I know there are no guarantees in life, but it sure is nice that someone cares enough about dogs to make sure they are healthy and fit enough not to suffer due to insufficient skeletal structure, bad knees or hips, degenerative eye problems, or whatever, because of it. Rescue dogs make wonderful pets. Many have done very well in agility, flyball, obedience, etc. Many have suffered from knee problems, hip problems, heart problems, and cataracts. To tell people that there is never a good reason to contribute to and help perpetuate the breeding of healthy dogs by reputable breeders is not stance of someone who truly cares about dogs.

I watched parts of the show and thought it was pretty well done. I was worried it was going to be 100% anti-breeder, but it wasn't... which was great. I hope it affects/educates some people - it'd be great if people would stop buying from pet stores.

Powerlounger, it is quite obvious to me that you don't know any reputable breeders. Any reputable breeder I know has lost money in breeding, or broke even in the end. They are most certainly NOT breeding to make money. They're trying to improve their breed. Lots of breeders I know also rescue. I don't feel guilty in the slightest for getting Dance from a breeder (though I do wish I had waited and got a toller from a bit of a better breeder, but evenso, I didn't support a mill/BYB when I got her). I don't feel guilty at all for getting Keira from a breeder either. I personally wouldn't be happy if all there was in the dog world were poorly bred mixed breeds everywhere and no purebreds. I'm not a purebred snob (in fact, my best dog was a mix), but I feel that having purebreds in society is very important.

As far as your "adopt, never buy" statement, I haven't had much luck with adopted dogs. Winston's excellent temperament wise, but his hips and such aren't very good. The other dogs we've adopted have all had horrible temperaments, and the dogs I got from BYBs/accidental litters (before I knew better) died before 5. Dogs in shelters and rescues are always from BYBs/mills/accidental litters. Reputable breeders are not the cause. That's not to say I'm against getting dogs from rescues or shelters, as I'm not at all. And I know that not all dogs from rescues/shelters are unhealthy or have poor temperaments. I know a lot of wonderful shelter dogs and often try and convince people to go to the local shelters around here to try and find a dog. I'll probably have more adopted dogs in my life, but I will also have responsibly bred dogs because I want to know that my dog will have a sound temperament and hopefully be in good health for a long time. That, and I can't imagine not having tollers in my life and very, very rarely will you find one in a shelter. Even breed rescue only gets in a handful of tollers every year.

Anyhow, I probably didn't have to type all of that out as I basically agree 100% with everything Ginger's Mom has said already and she said it better than I did.

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Originally Posted by Powerlounger

Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.

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Since you are not a breeder, so how can you say why responsible/reputable breeders breed dogs???

Yes, I have breed litters... of quality, happy and healthy Rough and Smooth Collies. I don't breed often, I've had this breed for just over 13yrs now, and I have to be honest this is the breed I love and this is the breed I want to have!! I currently own 6 Collies (2 smooths and 4 roughs) After having Collies for so long, I just don't think other breeds or mixes could compete... with the way I feel about my Collies!...

Yes, I've gotten dogs from shelters before, I've had a couple "mutts" that were great dogs, but responsible breeders are were I choose to go.. because I show my dogs.... not only are my dogs, show dogs, or dogs I do herding with on occasion or other performace activities, they are my pets and my babies!!.... I do not have them to make money off them!.. they are house dogs, they have 17 wooded acres to run on, they are rarely in a "kennel" environment... (unless I am going to be gone a day or two and have a friend coming to take care of them for me)..

Its been almost 2yrs since my last litter, but I am planning a rough and smooth breeding this year. IF responsible breeders make money on their dogs, then I must not be doing it like they do, because I have never made one cent off my dogs!.. All my dogs have their eyes CERF checked, hearts, thyroid.. etc..etc...etc. They are shown in conformation, I also do herding, agility, obedience etc..etc.. to prove my dogs quality for breeding. This is not cheap! It costs a lot of money to do this... Just showing in conformation alone is usually a couple thousand just to finish one dog... IF you are lucky! It can be much more... between entries and traveling costs and handlers costs if you send your dogs out with handlers...

On top of that.. caring for and properly raising a litter of puppies is expensive.. in just food alone a litter of 5 Collie pups can go thru 40lbs+ of food a week... plus all puppies have to have their eyes checked by a certified opthomologist between 5-8wks of age.... vet checks, vax, deworming... some breeders test all puppies for the MDR1 (ivermectin sensitivity) gene prior to placing in new homes, which is $60 per puppy.. or IF Grey Collie Syndrome is common in the family they will check puppies to make sure they are not carriers for that before placing, which is over $100-130 per puppy......

I have helped place "rescue" Collies in loving homes, which costs me money most of the time, for food, deworming etc...

I agree with ParNone... I own and show purebred Collies because of what they were bred to do and their abilities.. they are smart, they are versitle and able to complete so many different tasks... that is why some people choose to go to reputable breeders.... because they want a dog with certain characteristics...

Everyone has some good points on this thread and it's obvious that everyone on both sides of this love dogs. I totally understand that if a person wants a particular breed for a breed specific activity that they would acquire a dog from a reputable breeder. As well, a person who just wants to save a dog and have a companion can and should go to a shelter. And for those who want to do both there is this option:

Breed Rescue Groups

I'm sure most everyone on this forum knows all about these groups and it's nothing new but I thought I'd throw it out there.

In posting this, I completely understand that the breed rescue organizations that provide these dogs would not in most cases be able to provide any paperwork or guarantee in any way that could prove that the dog being adopted has good lineage or health so it would not be the suitable choice for someone who is looking for those qualifications.
But it is one more option for people out there who are somewhere in the middle, wanting to rescue but also wanting a specific breed but not necessarily for breed specific activities and are comfortable with the lack of guarantee and background of the dog.

And, hopefully with people adopting from shelters, adopting from breed specific rescues and purchasing dogs from good breeders we can all work to give dogs good homes and keep breeds that people know and love going strong.
Spaying and neutering is the best solution to these over populated shelters! :)

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Originally Posted by Powerlounger

Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.

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Are you a breeder? Have you even met a responsible breeder? I am guessing not.

Responsible breeders do NOT breed for money..they are breeding for the betterment of their chosen breed. Infact most breeders do not make a dime off of their breedings, they are lucky to break even. It takes a lot of hard work and money to breed!

Responsible breeders are not the reason there are so many animals in rescues nation wide...backyard breeders sure are though! A responsible breeders dogs never end up in a shelter...why? Because most have a written contract that says that if for whatever reason the dog can not be kept they MUST be returned to them.

the fact is, we need breeders. Why? Simply put, to preserve and improve breeds.

It is ignorent to say that every breeder is out for money, or doesn't care about rescue dogs. Infact, most responsible breeders support rescue and try to help them out any way they can.

please educate yourself before making such bold and inaccurate statements:
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html
http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIP...ndpetshops.php
http://www.dogdazedesigns.com/breeding.htm

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Also I do not condemn anyone for going to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't go to any breeder for a dog though...I will always go to my local high kill shelter. I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...

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Reputable breeders barley breed as it is. Maybe 1-2 litters a year if that. That's why they have such long waiting list.

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IMO breeds of dogs were created to serve a purpose. Responsible breeders make sure that thier lines produce dogs that serve that purpose. If everyone got dogs from a shelter and no one bred, what dogs would be used for hunting, hearding ect. Dogs work, and some are better at some jobs than others.

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I agree, and if you say you can get a lab or collie from the pound sure but most likley they aren't going to have great breeding lines so they won't have the same hunting or herding instincts as dog bred from working lines.

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Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.

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That is wrong though. Some people don't want the same dogs, some people want working dogs, some people want show dogs. Reputable breeders don't have a fatter wallet they don't make money off of their puppies if anything they loose money. BYB make the money off their puppies.
I'm pretty sure I have also heard numerous times of shelters that milk people for money.

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You may have to actually put effort into it, but they are there.

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And you think there is no effort and searching endlessly picking through the ton of byb to find the good one. You think it takes no effort to research this breeder ask other breeders about them takes no effort?

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They want a purebred, go to a purebred rescue.

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Like I said before, what if they don't adopt out of state/country?
What if you dont have a rescue near you?
What if they dont adopt out to people in apartment,with kids,cats etc?

Ummm can someone say PETA wanna be?

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Originally Posted by buttercup132

Ummm can someone say PETA wanna be?

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That wasn't really necessary was it? You made your points tactfully. Why add comments to fuel controversy?

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Originally Posted by 3muttsandaboston

Usda's puppymill guidelines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4r-FcXAXcE


I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...

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I wish more people would become knowledgeable about the USDA.
How the puppy mills are allowed to barely meet minumum requirements
and continue to do" business as usual". The USDA requirements are deeply
flawed & we need to change & update these Federal Laws.

I think the AKC has a moral obligation to speak up for all dogs & lobby
for improved animal regulation. The Breeders who support & promote the
group should want to improve the treatment of animals.

The logic used in the argument that for every puppy/dog bought, one is killing another, has always amazed me in how far it reaches and is based on assumptions. First it assumes that if the person did not go to a breeder, they would have gone and saved a life from the shelter, which is not necessarily true. Some would rather have a dog whose background they know and who has been bred specifically to a purpose to fit their lifestyle best, and would forgo getting a dog at all if they could not pursue that course.

You could really make reaching assumptions and accusations like that all day long about a great many things, i.e., because I adopted my dogs when they were cute puppies and highly adoptable, I condemned older, less wanted dogs to die. You could even carry it further and further.

Anyone who decides they don't wish to own a dog at all is killing a dog in a shelter.

Anyone who decides they prefer cats or other pet types are killing a dog in a shelter.

Anyone who only rescues one dog when they have the financial ability to take more is killing a dog.

If one goes to a breed rescue or no kill shelter, they are killing a dog in a high kill shelter.

The crux of the problem is not who adopts what and where, but irresponsible breedings: Those who dump litter after litter of unwanted dogs simply because they don't care to spay/neuter their dog. Puppy mills that "farm" dogs for pet shops with no care at all to their conditions, temperament, and proper care, they pour hundreds and thousands of dogs into picture, many with a myriad of health and temperament problems that land them in shelters and often on the euthanasia table. It is those people responsible for all the lives lost and dogs languishing in shelters. It is to them you could truthfully say "you are responsible for the suffering and deaths of dogs in shelters."

I found a GMA "The Problem With Puppy Mills" on ABC website. It's covers
the same tour by Lisa Ling.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=4598865

Just another point, I know of a very good Doberman breeder who donates every penny they make after the vet checks on their dogs to the local shelter and they donate quite a bit to breed rescues and shelters. They don't make a living on breeding, if anything they lose money because they never charge for adopting out a dog as a companion if they test positive for any medical problems. They also do an interview and a home inspection of each canidate for adoption. My dad got a companion doberman from this breeder and not only did the breeder pay for his neuter and initial vet check up he covered any recuring costs for the dogs medical issues. This breeder does this for every dog. Im sure they aren't the only breeder that goes through this much for the well being of their dogs, at least I hope not ;).
To me, that doesn't sound like a person who is just in it for the money.

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Originally Posted by Ginger's Mom

No I am not. You quoted the whole post but didn't read the whole post. As I said in the post they continue to support and work with the animal shelter. As I have said in earlier posts both of my girls are rescues, and my next dog will be also. But as I have also said repeatedly, until most people are sick of hearing me say it in this thread, is that if you are going to get a dog for a purpose, it is nice to have breeders that are actually doing their homework, spending their money and taking their time to make sure that the dog is fit to perform the work it will be doing. Yes, I know there are no guarantees in life, but it sure is nice that someone cares enough about dogs to make sure they are healthy and fit enough not to suffer due to insufficient skeletal structure, bad knees or hips, degenerative eye problems, or whatever, because of it. Rescue dogs make wonderful pets. Many have done very well in agility, flyball, obedience, etc. Many have suffered from knee problems, hip problems, heart problems, and cataracts. To tell people that there is never a good reason to contribute to and help perpetuate the breeding of healthy dogs by reputable breeders is not stance of someone who truly cares about dogs.

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I did read your post and to say that most shelter dogs are too weak to run and play is crazy. The woman who I board my dogs with/trainer has all rescue shelter dogs and these dogs all do flyball, agility, and frisbee and many of them are still doing it in their teens. Shelter dogs if you actually look at them and meet them can make perfect pets for anyone whether you want a service dog or a working dog. This is just my opinion though and of course I do not care at all if people go to a breeder as long as it's a good breeder. My little dachshund that lives with my grandmother for now came from a show breeder and was given to her because he had a parrot mouth.

Any dog can have health problems. Bulldogs can't even reproduce or give birth without help for heavens sake. Dachshunds have back problems and most shar peis have to have eyelid surgery to correct their eyelids. People need to ease up on breeding working dogs. Honestly I think we need to start breeding more for companion dogs and less for working dogs. 99% want a companion dog but some mistakenly get a border collie or some other working breed and it ends up recking their house. Yes there are rare occasions where someone needs a herding dog because they have a flock of sheep. This isn't all directed at you ginger's mom this is mostly just contributing to the whole thread.

Back to the subject of puppy mills. They are horrible and need to be stopped. Kennel clubs need to stop providing papers for these puppies.

In case any one missed Oprah's show on puppy mills here's a link so you can read more about it, see pictures, and watch a few videos Puppy Mill Story On Oprah. Just click on Lisa Ling On Puppy Mills.

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Originally Posted by 3muttsandaboston

I did read your post and to say that most shelter dogs are too weak to run and play is crazy.

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You didn't read my post, you looked at it and assumed that it said something it didn't. I said that many people find that their shelter dogs are not physically fit enough to run and play. In just this last week I have spoken with three friends about this very issue. One had to have her dog's back operated on for disc problems two months ago, another is taking her dog to a heart specialist for diagnosis and treatment this week, and the third is taking her dog in have his knees and hips operated on this week. The last dog is assumed to have been a product of a puppy mill or some such facility where he was kept in a cage all of the time. All of them are good dogs and worthy of their homes, but not dogs that can perform "jobs." They are good pets, if you only want a pet, by all means go to a shelter. If you are looking for a dog that can perform a "job" there is nothing wrong with going to a reputable breeder to get a dog that has been bred for that purpose.

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Honestly I think we need to start breeding more for companion dogs and less for working dogs.

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I honestly don't know what this means. I really do not think you were suggesting that we needed to start breeding more for companion dogs and less for working dogs when there are so many suitable companion dogs at shelters. I am sure you must have had something else in mind rather than suggesting that breed standards should be changed or that new breeds should be developed for a situation (companionship) that there are already too many dogs vying for.

Just a hint, if you don't want me to think something is directed at me, don't start your post by quoting me. It's bound to get my attention.