White Shepherds

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jackfrost

HD does not run rampant, there are many other breeds ahead of GSD's in that catagory about 40 of them or so and I don't think any other breed is as highly tested I think maybe Retrievers have the same number or so tested thru OFA, the rest aren't even close.

---

OFA is not reliable when trying to decide which breeds have HD more than others. I know if my dog got her X-rays done and the vet determined they would most likely come back OFA Dysplastic, I sure as heck wouldn't pay the money to send them in. The reason 99.9% of OFA x-rays that don't come back with numbers say the dog is only dysplatic in one hip is NOT just because hip dysplasia in one hip is more common -- it's because OFA looks at the hip joints TOGETHER rather than seperatly and grades them as such. If the other hip is truly in excellent shape, perhaps your grade as a whole may be better. Pennhipp is a better source for information as the vets must send the results in -- it is illegal if they don't. If you check with Pennhipp or ask your vet, I can guarantee you that the GSD is in the top 5 for hip dysplasia. We don't get alot of GSDs at the shop, and I'd say that GSDs make up the majority of dysplastic dogs we get.

I will also guarantee you that because there are less American white shepherd breeders than German shepherd breeders, and the American white shepherd breed was started in the day and age when we were more informed about health and temperament issues, that German shepherds are more likely to be dysplastic. More breeders, more health problems. White shepherds are also easier to show than GSDs -- if you look at pictures of many of them, they have ear placements and such that would never be acceptable in the GSD ring. Good reason to breed more for health and temperament, less for show. Belgians are the same way. Very easy breed to show as long as you have the temperament. Less of them, less to compete against.

It seems silly to me that people think just because they are breeding colours together, there is a limited gene pool. What if people were breeding black to black? Would there be a limited gene pool then? Of course not. If I bred strictly groenendael to groenendael, would I have a limited gene pool? No...And I'll bet you that there are more white GSDs registered with AKC and CKC than there are groenendael. Lines are one thing -- certain lines can be hard to get away from. But dogs in certain lines aren't always related, nor do lines always stay the same.

Every time I read someone saying that White Shepherd Breeders don't health test and so forth I laugh. I also laugh when people say they can not do the same as a GSD. Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do. If people think otherwise then they are living in teh dark ages and refuse to open their eyes to the facts. Color does not make the dog. Breeding does. It is that simple. I have been asked on other boards to provided proof that their are whites as police dogs, Sch. dogs, Service dogs and so forth. When I do the answer is always the same from the people who beleive the wives tales. "That dogs is a fluke. That is the only reason they are like that." It is halarious. If you don't like the white color fine. Don't own one. But don't lie about them and spread false info just because you don't like them. You don't judge people based on their color so why do it for dogs when all the wives tales have been proven false with Gentic testing. Also as for the health testing I have found that White Shepherd breeders are a lot more open about what is in their lines and a lot more active in trying to correct what is in their lines then the majority of GSD breeders. Great example of this is the White Shepherd Genetics Progect:

http://www.wsgenetics.org/

Which I am a proud participating member of. Yes there are bad breeders out there that don't do any testing. But guess what, there are a ton more BYB breeders in GSD's then there is in WS's. How do I know this? Common sense. There are WAY more GSD's then WS's. Here are facts. White Shepehrds are just as healthy as GSD's, White Shepherds can do everything a GSD can, White Shepherds have just as much of a chance of having genetic problems as a GSD no more or less. This is fact. Anyone who believes other wise is still living in teh dark ages of rumour before genetic testing. Like I said before. Color doesn't make the dog. Breeding does.
Nicole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

Every time I read someone saying that White Shepherd Breeders don't health test and so forth I laugh. I also laugh when people say they can not do the same as a GSD. Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do. If people think otherwise then they are living in teh dark ages and refuse to open their eyes to the facts. Color does not make the dog. Breeding does. It is that simple. I have been asked on other boards to provided proof that their are whites as police dogs, Sch. dogs, Service dogs and so forth. When I do the answer is always the same from the people who beleive the wives tales. "That dogs is a fluke. That is the only reason they are like that." It is halarious. If you don't like the white color fine. Don't own one. But don't lie about them and spread false info just because you don't like them. You don't judge people based on their color so why do it for dogs when all the wives tales have been proven false with Gentic testing. Also as for the health testing I have found that White Shepherd breeders are a lot more open about what is in their lines and a lot more active in trying to correct what is in their lines then the majority of GSD breeders. Great example of this is the White Shepherd Genetics Progect:

http://www.wsgenetics.org/

Which I am a proud participating member of. Yes there are bad breeders out there that don't do any testing. But guess what, there are a ton more BYB breeders in GSD's then there is in WS's. How do I know this? Common sense. There are WAY more GSD's then WS's. Here are facts. White Shepehrds are just as healthy as GSD's, White Shepherds can do everything a GSD can, White Shepherds have just as much of a chance of having genetic problems as a GSD no more or less. This is fact. Anyone who believes other wise is still living in teh dark ages of rumour before genetic testing. Like I said before. Color doesn't make the dog. Breeding does.
Nicole

---

Great post Nicole

yeah, you're proof, a handful of dogs, the same exact dogs on two different sites, most from over 10 years ago, a lot from over 20 years ago. If that's all you can show, and its defineatly more than most people that have been working and training dogs in the past 30 years and you're proud of it, fine, but you shouldn't be spreading lies.

Ok, I won't take OFA's word for it, I'll just take it on your word from your "shop" on the HD. I"m sure you've seen many more.

as for people breeding just blacks, yes, they are ending up with a smaller gene pool, but not as small as the whites by far cause Blacks aren't selected against like the whites, not for the past 100 years or so, give or take. But breeding for color in not a good practice.

The big big big difference is that blacks aren't or haven't been selected against. They do show up regularly in GSD litters. Very very very few whites actually will show up in a a GSD litter by someone that isn't breeding specifically for whites. Another big big difference, I could put pages of black GSD's that just in the past year that have proven themselves in working venues, a much better showing than a handful from the past 30 years of whites.

In fact i've seen more ACD's, Corgi's and JRT's working than White GSD's over the years. Kinda says something to me.

And Nicole, if your dogs can do everything, PROVE IT, work your dogs, don't just say it. If you think i'm picking on you cause you have white dogs, i could care less, I"ve had it in with many GSD breeders that talk a lot of talk, but prove absolutely nothing. Are any of your dogs titled? I can see by your site they are not. Have you even produced any dogs that have gone on to do any work? have you even had any litters to be claiming these things?

The burden of proof really isn't on me, I don't have to prove a negative. you may love your dogs etc, but to claim they can do anything, when in fact they aren't doing anything is a lie. I gotta say, i've looked around on quite a few WGSD breeder websites and they are all the same. Words words words, and more words, accompanied by some claims and zero proof. No tests, no titles, no nothing. Talk is cheap.

you are pretty cold jackfrost.. :eek:

WOW sounds like someone had a bad Christmas. I had a great one.

I have done a search of Schuzund clubs, just teh US ones. I was shocked at how many whites are actually in Schutzund. They are quite common actually. I also contated a few of the clubs. They also told me they are not as uncommon as most people think. And many excel at it. And some don't. Just like with any breed. Some do well some don't. If you don't want to do the REAL research yourself to see if these dogs are out there doing these things then stop attacking the ones that provide proof that they do. I gava only a couple of links to just show you that they do do this stuff. Those pages showed many different dogs doing different tasks and that is why I provided those links. I am not going to sit here all day to list the many sites there are showing these dogs are titles and do do the work that a GSD can do just because you are too lazy to do it for your self and choose to beleive rumours instead of fact.

Too me it looks like all you want to do is attack something, have something to hate. It is sad that you choose the white shepherd for that. I am no longer going to sit here and keep providing proof of the facts just so you can close you eyes and cover your ears and say No No No. I provided the proof. I provided the facts. For those truely wanting to learn I will continue the discussion. But all I get from you is you want to attack and fight. Not discuss. Oh well. Your loss.

I hope everyone is having as Merry a Christmas as I am.
Nicole

I can assure you my christmas was great.

Since you've done the search of Sch clubs that have whites, post the links please. I'm far from lazy, in fact I've titled a few dogs this year myself and you? Just wondering. I have lots of contact with sch clubs from the west coast, the east coast, and everything in between. Contact with LEO's MWD's, Importers, etc. and I think my "searches" for good dog's everyday has more than proven to me that a working WGSD is a very rare occurance. Again you give me nothing but words.

I have not chosen the white shepherd to hate, I could care less. I've chosen "BS" as the culprit. Trust me, BYB's of the GSD world don't get any love from me either, nor do the ones that have not proven their breeding stock thru working titles, or actual work.

you have not provided me any proof, save for all intents and purposes about 10 dogs over the past 30 years. I could find 10 JRT's with Sch titles over that time period as well. Don't get me wrong, i love a good JRT, but I don't think anybody is really going to argue that qualifies them as being able to do the same things as well or better than a GSD.

I asked if your dogs are titled? and No they are not. I saw that for myself. Are their parent's titled?

Have you produced any dogs that are now working? Titled?

again, I don't have to prove a negative. If you really want me to dig up the results from the past year or two and show you that there were very few if any WGSD's that were titled in that year, well, let's just say i'm not going to waste my time. You really expect me to to go and find all the sites for wgsd's again just to show you that their breeding stock are NOT titled? Sorry I don't have to prove a negative.

As the American white shepherd is bred primarily for therapy work, the titles you will generally see on an AWS are TDI, TT, CGN, CGC, etc. Nicole is breeding for therapy purposes. These titles basically do not mean anything to me -- a freaky dog can pass these tests. Hence why I wouldn't rely on titles when looking for a therapy puppy. I would rather meet the parents myself.

Those are certificates, not titles and I'm not aware of any breed clubs that use those as proof of breed worthiness. Which clubs use the TDI, or CGC or CGN as proof of breed worthiness? Just wondering?

I would rather meet the parents in any case, that's not the point.

I didn't ask specifically for titles, working dogs count, titles or not. ANy working dogs? and don't give me an example of s service dog that is so impt that it can be taken out of service without replacement to whelp and raise a litter for a month and a half. That's called a pet.

If you're going to make claims about white GSD's being smarter, more drive, and healthier, your darn right those titles mean everything. Put up or shut up, talk is cheap, so far that's all ive seen, excuses and words. Test your breeding stock or don't make hallow claims.

Nicole has stated that she was breeding for service dogs, now you say she is breeding for therapy dogs. There is a big difference, so which one is it?
Before getting a therapy dog you need your cgc, which Nicole has not said her dog had. How can you breed for anything if your dog is untitled. I have to agree with Jackfrost on this, all I've seen so far are 30 or 40 yr old links and pictures.
As for service dogs or therapy dogs there doesn't seem to be any that can pass cgc to become one.
Also there are absolutely no white GSD schH dogs. This I have checked out with our German friends who run a school for training schH. They have all the information from the other schools as they run together.
Maybe Nicole means that people train them by themselves for the fun of it (which can be very dangerous) but there are no graduates anywhere, nor any police dogs.
From what I have been told, the whites are lacking in temperament and nerves, therefore aren't suitable for much of any work.

Give it up wolfsoul. These two people have decided to live in teh dark. Let them. They are hurting no one. Anyone who honestly wants to learnt eh truth will read this thread and will see the proof I and others haev provided. Saying ther are NO police or Sch. White Shepherds is laughable to say the least. Notice how aggressive these two are in they posts. It is sad the hate they are showing. They do not want to learn the truth. They only want a fight. I have seen people like them before. They latch on to something and won't let go no matter teh proof they are shown. It is a waste of my time and yours to try and show them teh light. You and I an just about anyone else reading this thread will see the anger in their posts and will see that we do provide links. I am not going to sit here all day providing links because they do not want to do it themselves. I have much better things to do with my time. Just ignore them.

The white Shepherd is just that. A white Shepehrd. Anything a GSD can do a White Shepehrd can do. That is a fact. Genetic testing proved all teh old wives tails about whites to be false. It has been proven that Whites are just as healthy, intelligent, trainable and so forth as a GSD. Those are facts. If they choose to ignore facts let them.
Nicole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jackfrost

Which clubs use the TDI, or CGC or CGN as proof of breed worthiness?

If you're going to make claims about white GSD's being smarter, more drive, and healthier, your darn right those titles mean everything.

---

I obtained my dog's CGN from CKC. No titles prove breed worthiness. Titles are just something that tell people you do stuff with your dog, and if you reply on them for proving breed worthiness, I caution you greatly, as no title will tell you such.

Quote:

---

Nicole has stated that she was breeding for service dogs, now you say she is breeding for therapy dogs. There is a big difference, so which one is it? Before getting a therapy dog you need your cgc

---

Service dogs provide personal therapy -- thus making them therapy dogs. My dog is my service dog -- I still prefer calling her my therapy dogs. Makes me sound a hell of alot less helpless. Therapy,service,whatever. No, a dog does not need a CGC or CGN to be a therapy dog -- they do not need any titles. MY girl's mother was a therapy dog and went to nursing homes, and she did not have her CGN or CGC. All she had was her Can CH. My boy's grandfather was a therapy dog. All he had was his CDX.

Yes Nicole, you are right. I don't think I will continue. My breed's variety (the groenendael) suffers alot of hate and disrespect in the schutzhund and french ring venues because it is a black dog. I just hate seeing a colour disregarded just because other colours are "better." My co-breeder had to leave the schutzhund club because the people basically forced her out with their cruelty. Her dogs were black, therefore they were not good.

Wolfsoul I totlaly agree. I have seen examples in every type of titled dog where the dog has excelled in getting that title but because of temperment I would NEVER ever consider breeding the dog. Take for example show dogs. I have seen some outstanding examples conformation wise but the dogs temperments were awful but because they looked so good and had all teh titles they were still bred. I have seen some awsome Sch. dogs that also had awsome titles but off the field their temperments were unpredicatable and should not have been bred but were because they were Titled. Titles are great. Shows you do things, as you said, with your dogs. it is a peice of paper that proves your dogs can do that. But at the end of the day it is just a piece of paper. Great post Wolfsoul.
Nicole

Wolfsoul all it is is racism. That is it. That is how I am many other see it. When the rumors are proven false with genetic testing and the dogs have proven to do the same as the "proper colors" but a few still choose to spread lies and hate about them then it is just racism. Some people need something to hate and take their anger and fustration on. So base their excuses on the color of a dog.

You and I and most others know the truth or are learning the truth about our wonderful dogs. Nothing that people who resfuse to open their eyes and ears say can change that. You and I will continue to educate the ones who truely want to learn and that is what matters.

I am sorry your friend went through that.
Nicole

You are wrong or misinformed about therapy dogs not needing a cgc for therapy work. Without a cgc the ST.John ambulance will not accept them for the course. This I can definitely vouch for as I am an adjucator for therapy dogs.
I get the feeling that when Nicole gets trapped under her misquotes she pretends it's the other person who wants to hate. This just overflows with self doubt on her part or the fact that she can't answer the questions truthfully so she changes the subject to get off the trail when it gets too rough. We are searching only for the truth and not trying to hate a breed. Although the breed had been eradicated some yrs ago because of the problems, some BYB's chose to bring it back as a novelty and a way to make $$$$.
No reputable breeder who is trying to better the breed would ever breed Whites.
This is something like the new trend for those "special breeds", like the cockapoos, labradoodles. chi poos etc. This is simply a byb dream of $$$$$.
If and when I read "real" proof dated in the present and not 30 yrs ago, I might consider reading it, otherwise as Jackfrost said...it is a waste of time.

Mike you are so funny. If you choose to take the time to either one:read the entire thread and check out teh links provided or two do some research for yourself you will see what you said is false. NO therapy dog has to have a CGC. How do I know this because I have several friends who have therapy dogs. ALl they had to do was take a test and it wasn't a CGC. Just a quick test to check the temperment of the dog. That is all. AS for White shepehrds I have provided links, and proof. I provided those sites because they showed many types of jobs the whites do. Which meant I had less links to post. I am not going to sit here all day finding things for you for you just to sit there and say it is a fluke. Sorry. Not worth my time.

AND the funniest part of the post of yours(had tears running down my eyes I was laughing so hard) is where you say they were eradicated. LOLOLOL that is so funny. That never happened. Didn't even come close to happening. But you of course will never beleive that. Keep the jokes coming. I am enjoying them.
Nicole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike001

You are wrong or misinformed about therapy dogs not needing a cgc for therapy work. Without a cgc the ST.John ambulance will not accept them for the course.

---

St John's ambulance is one of the MANY therapy groups, and it is not found in many many places. If you contact other therapy groups you will find that the majority of them do not need a CGN or CGC, but rather just to pass their own screening process. Pets and People is the group my dog's mother went through and she went on to be a therapy dog at 18 months old with only her Canadian Championship.

I completely agree Nicole -- I know and know of so many dogs who are working or show titled that should not be bred.

I know someone who breeds tollers and she got all of her dogs' Chs by pinning them against eachother in the ring, thus giving them points. Easy to do when you have an uncommon breed in the ring -- I could do it with my Belgians if I wanted to. One time the judge said "none of these dogs deserve ribbons," which is almost NEVER done, and she excused them all. Another time, in the group ring, the judge asked "why are there two goldens in the ring?" proving just what kind of show quality her dogs were.

I know a schutzhund/drug and bom detection./french ring trainer in Alberta. His multi titled schutzhund dog tried to eat my dog and then came after me. My co-breeder was in the schutzhund club for years and witnessed things that almost turned her off the sport. You get the dogs that think of it as a fun game, and then you get the dogs that are serious about it. She'd seen people be attacked more than once unprovocatively by these dogs, who were probably titled. I know a dog with her TT and CGC who was tested for French ring and tested well -- she took after a man who was wearing a puffy jacket in the winter time and latched on to his arm. I knew a rotti lab mix with his CGN who attacked and almost killed my friend -- literally almost ripped her head off, she was lucky most of her throat was intact enough that she didn't bleed to death.

Goes to show you that a title does not prove conformation, working ability, temperament, and especially health.

Wolfsoul you are soooo right. I would never say titles are bad to have. They are great. Like you said before it shows you do things with your dog and also shows your dog can do those things. But none of them, as you said, means a dog should or should not be bred.
Nicole

Makes me also sad to see you joke about the seriousness of the problem. That is what I meant by changing the subject when things get too close to home for comfort. Why can't you just answer like an adult like the rest of us? Of course you might be just a teenager, I totally forgot about that, and teenagers are so slow to understand sometimes. But so far the links provided are outdated and prove nothing.
This only reinforces my belief that you are not being truthful with your posts and are in fact hiding something.
As of now, my opinion is that you really don't understand anything about what you are discussing, nor do you understand the WGSD and the problems associated with it. You can't even be sure you will be able to breed your dog as infertility in females and males is one of the main problems.

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

Mike I give up with you. LOL Infertility is not a problem is white shepherds. Never has been. You keep making all these claims about them having this or that problem but yet you provied NO proof. We have provided some but you just make accusations and provide NO proof. As for hiding anything I have nothing to hide. Never have. I just choose not to state the answers Over and Over and Over agian because you chose to say it is a fluke or those are too old. lol Her eis a question for you. If those dogs are so old and the White shepherd was eradicated, AS you claim(LOLOLOLOL), then why were they so able to do those things when as you claim they first started out? You are the one saying they are prone to health problems(Prove it with links to teh genetic tests saying so) you are teh one saying they can't do those things and never have so prove that. I have shown they have. Only shown a small number so people can see the many things they can do, but at least I have shown something. You on teh other hand have shown NOTHING except that you believe in wives tails.
Nicole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike001

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

---

Where did I say CGC isn't requied for St John's ambulance? I don't know of their practises, all I know is that St John's Ambulance is not the only therapy organization and I've never heard of another organization that used it as a requirement rather than it's own screening process, like the organization my dog's mother went through, Pets and People.

I have a service dog, and yes, I do prefer to call her a therapy dog. When I call her a service dog I feel as though people look down on me as someone who "needs service." Makes me sound helpless. I'd rather she be my therapy dog, as that is what she is to me -- she calms and reassures me, and provides me with the mental therapy that I need.

I soooo know what you mean. When I have to explain about Sheena I hate the pitty look they give me. Also Wolfsould could you empty your in box I need to pm you somthing.
Nicole

I have two therapy dogs- and neither were required to have their CGC prior. Depends on where you live etc. Also a Therapy dog is different than Therapy dog International. I chose not to list my dogs in TDI because it puts my dogs on a national registry, and I am not willing to travel to other places, as they already go to two hospitals locally.

Quote:

---

Goes to show you that a title does not prove conformation, working ability, temperament, and especially health.

---

You're right a title isn't the be all and end all, BUT let me ask you a question.

How did the GSD gain its reputation as a service dog, for detection, SAR, military and police work, guardians of the home, loyal family companions, leaders of the blind, etc?? Thru careful breeding and testing the breeding stock and proving them. For GSD's it involves schutzhund that proves the breed worthiness. Maybe proves is the wrong word, but i'm sure you know what I mean. They didn't get their reputation by just breeding what every breeder wanted to consider a good dog. They were tested and judged against a standard. Ch show ratings don't mean a hill of beans as GSD breeding is working dog breeding or it is not GSD breeding. As said by the founder of the breed.

My point about the CGC, CGN, TDI, etc are certificates, yes they show you've done something with your dog. You can argue title, certifciate whatever, it doesn't matter. My point is that the tests are very basic and prove little of the capabilities of the dog. My intent is not to demean the title, but breed clubs have specific tests that show the drive and temperment of the breed and what they are capable of. The CGC, etc aren't one of those tests used to test and prove breeding stock, that is my point.

Quote:

---

My breed's variety (the groenendael) suffers alot of hate and disrespect in the schutzhund and french ring venues because it is a black dog.

---

I have seen and been a part of training in your breed and many other black dogs, I don't really see the disrespect and hate towards black dogs like you claim. If we had white one's coming thru that wouldn't matter either. As i've said before its the BS I don't like. and there are what 4-5 or more posts since i've asked some specific questions and still I get words and excuses. Where are all these WGSD's that are working. Therapy dogs and service dogs are worlds apart, i'm not going to spell out the differences here.

Quote:

---

When the rumors are proven false with genetic testing and the dogs have proven to do the same as the "proper colors" but a few still choose to spread lies and hate about them then it is just racism. Some people need something to hate and take their anger and fustration on. So base their excuses on the color of a dog.

---

Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with the color. Genetic testing doesn't prove anything about the working ability of the dog. I'm not spreading lies, i'm not spreading hate. If a very small handful of dogs from decades ago is all you have to prove that they're working dogs, its pitiful at best.

Quote:

---

The white Shepherd is just that. A white Shepehrd. Anything a GSD can do a White Shepehrd can do. That is a fact. Genetic testing proved all teh old wives tails about whites to be false. It has been proven that Whites are just as healthy, intelligent, trainable and so forth as a GSD. Those are facts. If they choose to ignore facts let them.

---

So prove it, i'm still waiting. What titles do your dogs have? What have they proven? Being a therapy dog going to nursing homes proves nothing but a dog with stable temperment. You want to claim that wgsd's can do anything a GSD can do, then prove it. Get them on the field, test their nerve, test their courage, test their strenght, test their willingness to work alone and with a handler, test their physical attributes, do something. This talk is tiring. Again, you said you have lots of clubs that say they aren't uncommon, show me one. I've been around a while and been involved with people that have been even longer and like I said before there have been more JRT's, ACD's and Corgi's proving themselves on the field that WGSD's

So again test your breeding stock, quit making excuses. Just because some dogs have titles that are questionable doesn't make the titles wrong. It makes the unethical people that are skirting rules and breeding standards that are. The tests are still very real and very valuable, using that as an excuse not to do them is just laziness and unethical by any standards.

Again, if you're going to make claims, you better have something to back them up with. 2 WGSD's that were on police forces 20 years ago, or a WGSD that made SchH III 30 years ago is, like it was said before, an anomoly, a rarity, not common place. While i'm living in the dark ages, some of us should come back to reality.

Jackfrost- the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..
Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.
ESA's are not recognized and have no access. But there is definitely a place for them in a person's home.
I don't know why you would think people give you pitying looks if you use a certified service dog, I see people using them and have yet to see anyone do this. Maybe you are self concious and imagine this.

Nicole, as far as giving you proof, if you were truly going to breed your dog, you would have read about infertility in White Shepherds. When you provide proof that is of this year or at least starting at the yr, 2000, I will send my proof. I have all those old relics on hand myself, they just don't hold a drop of water anymore. Today's breeders are educating themselves in the today world, not the past.

Since Boxing day is for friends and families, I think I will go and wait for my guests instead of wasting time on a useless debate.

Mike where is the proof they are infertile? You don't have any that is why you can't post any. White shepehrds are no more infertile then GSD's. You are funny. As for pittying looks. Anyone that has had a service dog knows what I mean. Not everyone gives them but some do. Like I said you make all these claims and provide nothing to back it up. I provide links, proof even a link to the WS genetics program. What have you provided?
Nicole

I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund? Heck, I AM breeding for schutzhund and not only are my dogs untitled in it, but I haven't even done any schutzhund yet.

There really is alot of prejiduce against the groenendael in protection sports, and the black GSD for that matter too -- we recently had a discussion on the Belgian list about GSDs vs Belgians, and the topic of black GSDs came up. It interests me that in working venues people can be so iffy about colours. If the dog can work, who cares? Even if you are right and the American white shepherd breed as a whole can not do schutzhund (even though that is not it's original purpose, such as your comparison with jack russells -- though they can do it, most do not simply because it isn't what it's intended to do), would you be so prejiduced against individual white dogs that do do schutzhund? Or is it just against the ones doing their original purpose, therapy work? The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

My inbox is empty Nicole!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike001

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.

---

My dog not only "calms and reassures" me which can bring me down from a panic attack, but she also detects any signs of psychotic episodes and immediatly brings me home -- the last time I had a bad episode I jumped into the lake in the frezing winter. Psychological disabilities are just as crippling as physical ones. I am off my old medications now and have not needed her for a few months though I still take her out on any days that feel off to me, just incase.

Quote:

---

the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..

---

very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point.

Quote:

---

I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund?

---

You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be, its the breed test, it's what is used to test and prove breeding stock, it tests nerve, strength, temperment etc. Its the strict standards in breeding and testing that brought the GSD the reputation it has today, and should be preserved. To claim your "breed" can do everything a GSD can do and more??, then prove it.

Quote:

---

The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

---

The original intent of the herding dog was one of athletic ability that could run and be agile enough to tend sheep, keep them in line etc, be courageous enough and have the strength to ward off a predatory attack, and have the energy and stamina to work the fields all day. Then at nigh it had to be stable enough and still protective enough to guard the home. At that time in history there were many guardian dogs and many herding dogs, but none that could really do it all. The guardian breeds too big and not athletic enough, and the other "herder" weren't strong enough mentally of physically to engage attackers. not long after the GSD was made famous those qualities were still desired, although the landscape of Germany and the need for herding was diminished, so Schutzhund was developed to ensure that those qualities were tested and maintained within the breed.

Quote:

---

Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...

---

Here are some of Nicole's word's

Quote:

---

White Shepherds can perform in and excel at AKC performance events like obedience, tracking, agility, flyball and herding trials. White Shepherds can be police dogs, bomb detection dogs, drug sniffing dogs, and Search and Rescue dogs just to list a few.

-Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it.

-White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.

-The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose.

Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts.

Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do.

---

Sounds like she, along with any other white GSD breeder I've seen always directly relates what their dogs do, to the reputations the GSD has built for itself. To that i've said it 1000 times, PROVE IT. There's a reason the GSD has its reputation, and people breeding WGSD's do none of it, where are the LSP, BSP, SchH, HGH winners and titles in those venues? If you're not testing or proving that the WGSD can do anything and everything etc except for a handful of dogs over the pas 30 years I suggest you get off the computer and get training some dogs.

Quote:
quote borzoimom "the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC.. /



Quote jackfrost://"very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point."...'

So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..

Well now that was an interesting post from Nicole. She says she is breeding a"proven service dog", yet her so called service dog has no titles? Could you tell us what school you and your dog graduated from and why you said you didn't think your dog needed any titles or certificates? When you graduate with your dog, you have a certificate to prove it is a service dog. And you say you are not interested in working titles. That is what a GSD was born to do. You want us to believe you will automatically have service dog quality pups when the dam is not proven in anything? Shelter dogs are often taken in to be trained as service dogs and they do a great job. You are not interested in obedience, how does one expect a service dog to follow instuctions and commands without basic obedience. And what about tracking? What if the dog is in charge of an alzheimer's patient or an autisitc child and they wander away? How would the dog find his "charges" if he knew nothing of tracking?

A GSD is first and foremost a working dog in the true sense of the word. If your dog can't meet the requirements, it should not be bred. You skirt around the issue of your dog's titles or certificates, which to me points out that she has none.

What would happen if a guide dog were to lead a blind person and a car backfired and the dog freaked ? Or what if a dog accompanied a disabled person and met some unruly people and decided to growl or raise it's hackles?
These dogs would quickly be washed out of a program. That is why it is so important that service dogs experience all kinds of noises and distractions before entering a program.

If a dog has not been proven for steady drive and nerves, then it can't be considered as a true working GSD. The training a schH dog gets only proves his worthiness more, every GSD was born for this type of work. A GSD is nothing but a pet without proof of being able to work as it was bred to do.

As for police work, they do not accept WGSD's because they are too visible to go undetected. If you can show me one white proven GSD of today, not eons ago, I might tend to believe there might be one or two in the deep recesses of somewhere, but you can't even prove your own dog's worthiness.

The best proof I can give you is to send you to Fred Lanting's explanations of real GSD's. Knowing how intensive and complicated his readings are, I'm sure you won't want to dedicate the necessary time to it.
Or, there is also a great forum on service dogs that you could access for information, I think it's called "Our Community service dogs". I could ask for the name from a friend if you can't get into the site.

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

Mike you are starting to sound very familiar. She is a PROVEN service dog. She is a PSD. Just to give you some education(which I have a sneaking suspision I have given you before) Service dogs DO NOT have to have any titles. None Nana nothing. They DO NOT have to be trained by a facility. They can be owner trained. There is NO law in in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be certified or have titles or have to be trained by a facility. THAT IS A FACT.

So since Sheena is a PROVEN service dog she has a higher chance of producing service dogs. Is that a garentee that she will? Nope. Have I ever said she will produce service dogs and that all her puppies will be service dogs? NOPE never. All I ever said is that is what I am breeding for. So I find dogs with those qualities and HOPE that I will produce at least a few. That is how breeding works.

AS for obience titles and the like I have NEVER said I don't like them. In fact I state over and over agian that that titles are great to have. I just said they are not the be all and end all of whether a dog should be bred or not.

I am sorry you can not open your eyes and truely learn. You are the one who loses out on all this but staying in teh dark.
Nicole

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by borzoimom

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

---

.....

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

---

Nicole- I have shared this before but not on this thread. My Zubin has a gift. Now both he and his sister Galina work with children with cancer at two hospitals. However- Zubin has a gift.. He has had it since day one- keeping in mind, all of these children have some form of cancer, but Zubin can tell which one is failing- and the joke of this is- it sometimes goes against the medical reports. We have had situations of a child being sent to a huge childrens hospital as failing in cancer recovery- Zubin acts a little like a goof ball- willing to play fetch with the child- wagging his tail slowly.. The child was discharge in two weeks from the new hospital with a " yes its in full remission" . Another child- was supposed to be discharged with only treatments- Zubin would not leave that child- he stood there with his head in his lap pressing gently- would not leave ( the story is on my website).. The child died that night when the next morning he was supposed to be discharged- ... How he knows- we have no clue- but of the 7 pups in this litter- 4 are now therapy dogs- not bred with that in mind- the parents are top show dogs- but 4 in this litter are Therapy dogs- and it comes natural to them... Borzois are supposed to be rather aloof and dignified etc- these guys are open- calmly friendly and bothered by NOTHING! ... And Zubin and Galina are flat out hams in the ring- Look at the judges face on my website under our dogs- and look at the judges face under Zubin- ....