is this cruel?

Aly,
What do you do if you have the best trained dog in the world BUT it should decide to go after something and it decides not to listen to you? What do you use for some control then? I'm not trying to be a smart a** or anything I'm really not. I would think that could happen sometimes though.

With Jada having pit in her I honestly feel like I need some control over her because what if she suddenley decided to go after something? I would be in so much trouble because she has the pit in her and you know how people can be about them. I just feel safer when we are out if she has on the prong. I love Jada with all my heart and I wouldn't use anything on her that I thought would hurt her. May I ask you what it is that you dislike about the prong collar so much? Do you honestly think it really hurts the dog? Jada does not act like she is any any pain what so ever when she has on her prong collar.

Sorry Micki. I was jumped on repetitively by one person and became ultra sensitive on a subject I am already passionate about. There are some things that I cannot be quiet about because I am just so deeply involved. It is a big fault of mine.

While I express my views in passionate terms, I am not implying that any of you are bad people/dog owners/trainers. I wouldn't say that about anyone who loves their dogs like I do. BUT I do 100% stand by everything I have said. And it isn't just a blindly formed opinion. I do this every day.

Now I will shut up for Micki :D unless I absolutely can't help opening my mouth again!

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Originally posted by Jadapit
Aly,
What do you do if you have the best trained dog in the world BUT it should decide to go after something and it decides not to listen to you? What do you use for some control then? I'm not trying to be a smart a** or anything I'm really not. I would think that could happen sometimes though.

With Jada having pit in her I honestly feel like I need some control over her because what if she suddenley decided to go after something? I would be in so much trouble because she has the pit in her and you know how people can be about them. I just feel safer when we are out if she has on the prong. I love Jada with all my heart and I wouldn't use anything on her that I thought would hurt her. May I ask you what it is that you dislike about the prong collar so much? Do you honestly think it really hurts the dog? Jada does not act like she is any any pain what so ever when she has on her prong collar.

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I understand your worry about Jada because she has pit in her. That is an incredibly scary thing in this world where people are so ignorant and quick to jump to calling all pits aggressive. I can understand where you're coming from, but I still would use a Gentle Leader, No Pull, Halti, etc on a Pit if I had one.

Bascially, if I had the best trained dog in the world who went after something and I could not stop it, I think that would be a thing that the prong would not help. If it is something that even the most well trained dog HAS to go right after that they forget their training, then there is not much else to be done in that situation.

I do know the prong collar hurts dogs when used improperly. And I think it is extremely easy for a majority of people to use it improperly. I see a lot of people yanking so hard on those things like they are choke chains. While it may not hurt when used properly, I still disagree with the method used. A common mistake is people are always telling their dogs "no no no" *yank yank yank* and punishing undesirable behavior. What they don't do is show the dog what a desirable behavior is. Instead of throwing this collar on a dog and letting them hurt or correct themselves, I do numerous exercises that show the dog that walking by my leg is a great and rewarding place to be. Most people don't like to do this simply because they are lazy and want that instant fix that bckrazy mentioned. I do understand your fear because Jada is a Pit though, so I'm NOT calling you lazy.

ip prefere not to use a prong myself. i have however used choke chains, Shadow was trained with a choke chain, and she wont walk nicley without one. not because she needs it but because she LIKES it, her coat is so thick around her neck that the chain has no effect on her whatsoever, but when she see's a choke chain she puts it on herself and walks in a perfect heel. with her normal collar she pulls, not hard but she pulls lol and she has gotten out of her collars before, did she take off? no, she sat her butt on the ground and waited for my dad to put it back on. Misty needs a haltie to be walked, I would NEVER use a prong or choke or anything that causes pain on her. why? because she wont care one way or the other, when she is exited she will yank the leash so hard she is walking on her hind legs and no amount of pain or dicomfort will stop her. so I use a haltie, oh she still pulls... but she cannot pull hard and see where she is going at the same time lol there is no underlying issues between Misty and me, Misty is just a very exitable dog and if she got out of the collar she would run 5 feet turn around and come flying to my arms, I know because she does it all the time, she has gotten out of the yard before.. I said "mist.." and she was back. Happy alos pulls on leash, would she go anywhere if she got off? I walk her off leash in a perfect heel, so you tell me.

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Originally posted by aly
Sorry Micki. I was jumped on repetitively by one person and became ultra sensitive on a subject I am already passionate about. There are some things that I cannot be quiet about because I am just so deeply involved. It is a big fault of mine.

While I express my views in passionate terms, I am not implying that any of you are bad people/dog owners/trainers. I wouldn't say that about anyone who loves their dogs like I do. BUT I do 100% stand by everything I have said. And it isn't just a blindly formed opinion. I do this every day.

Now I will shut up for Micki :D unless I absolutely can't help opening my mouth again!

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Hey, I agree with you 100%. :) If you were referring to me jumping on you, sorry you took it that way. I too, was just standing behind my views on the subject, and while I don't train tons of dogs like you...i do train my doggy, and I am his world, and this mommy would never do him harm, I am the most important thing to him...and i love him so very much! Anyway, enough said. :)

Aly,
Thanks for replying back to me. What you said made a lot of sence. You just would NOT believe the dirty looks I get from people when I take Jada walking. It's so sad because Jada honestly loves everybody and she thinks everyone loves her also.

One time these two ladies were walking toward us and they saw Jada and they stopped dead in their tracks and they would not move until I went to the other side of the street. People can become so stupid when they see a pit.:mad:

Didn't many of us say that we started with this collar and find it no longer necessary? Do any of you truly think that those of us who have chosen to use it would ever intentionally hurt our dogs???? I think NOT!!!!!

It is truly a difference of training methods, in my opinion, but not cruelty vs non-cruelty.

Logan

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Hey, I agree with you 100%. :) If you were referring to me jumping on you, sorry you took it that way. I too, was just standing behind my views on the subject, and while I don't train tons of dogs like you...i do train my doggy, and I am his world, and this mommy would never do him harm, I am the most important thing to him...and i love him so very much! Anyway, enough said. :)

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Nope, I didn't mean you! I know you love your boy and I was just trying to get my points across.

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Originally posted by Jadapit
Aly,
Thanks for replying back to me. What you said made a lot of sence. You just would NOT believe the dirty looks I get from people when I take Jada walking. It's so sad because Jada honestly loves everybody and she thinks everyone loves her also.

One time these two ladies were walking toward us and they saw Jada and they stopped dead in their tracks and they would not move until I went to the other side of the street. People can become so stupid when they see a pit.:mad:

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If I saw Jada on the street, you better run because I'd wanna steal her :)

Logan, if you're referring to me - I said NOT ALL people depend on them, but a lot (majority is the word I used) DO depend on them - and that's what I dislike about them.

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Like bckrazy, I prefer to train my dogs on respect/trust.

Nala PULLS when she wants to. When on walks, and she pulls - I make her stop and sit. EVERYtime she pulls. There's no discomfort whatsoever in making her stop and sit, and generally it gives her the message to calm down. She realizes that she does not get to go any further/it doesn't get her there faster if she pulls on the lead.
It may take us longer, but she does get the message.

However, I used to walk my neighbor's Chocolate Lab years before I had dogs of my own. The dog pulled like crazy and they had me use a prong collar on him. Did it work? Not one bit. He HATED it. He was much more behaved on a normal collar.

They ended up taking him to obedience classes and worked with him almost 24/7 - last I've known he walks beautifully.

I have one of those for my big dogs(2 german sheperds and 1 doberman), I think they should only be used if the person knows how to use them. You could seriously hurt the dog if you pull to hard. I was taught how to use it in my agility class with Maggie.
My dogs are very good with the collar, one pull(not rough) makes them stop and they will enjoy the rest of the walk calmly.

Ok I agree with Aly that when prong collars and chokes are used incorrectly they can cause damage. I also agree that there are many, many people out there that don't know how to use them properly.

What I don't agree with is that everything has to be one way or another...black or white.

For some people prong collars used correctly assist in keeping a large dog under control at all times which makes for happier walks and bonding times. For others they prefer a choke. For others the halti works great! I think the most important thing is that your dog is always under your control, painfree and happy. I think everyone would agree with me on this one.

For our husky we use one of the modified choke collars. We tried several different things and this seems to make her the happiest. The halti made her miserable. She REALLY doesn't like something on her head. She doesn't even like us to handle her muzzle a lot. Harnesses also made her uncomfortable. She just keeps shaking her body the whole time. I don't really like choke collars because of all of her hair around her neck that even when it was loose it seemed to annoy her. We need to keep a collar on her at all times. The leather one we had just needed to be kept so tight all the time that I didn't like it. So with the modified choke or as some know it as the Greyhound collar, we can have it looser around her neck for comfort when she isn't on a leash. When she is on the leash and pulls with her usual excitement it tightens just enough so that the collar doesn't pull off her head and she gets away.

I think each dog needs different things and as long as they are used properly then you need to use what works with your dog.

I also think the prongs just look horrible which is what most people would immediatly respond to.

Denyce

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Originally posted by Denyce

What I don't agree with is that everything has to be one way or another...black or white.

For some people prong collars used correctly assist in keeping a large dog under control at all times which makes for happier walks and bonding times. For others they prefer a choke. For others the halti works great! I think the most important thing is that your dog is always under your control, painfree and happy. I think everyone would agree with me on this one.


I think each dog needs different things and as long as they are used properly then you need to use what works with your dog.

I also think the prongs just look horrible which is what most people would immediatly respond to.

Denyce

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I agree with you 100%...

I guess, I obviously, couldn't have said it better myself ;)

First off, this is not directed at anyone in particular, but is merely insight and my opinion on why these types of threads can tend to get emotional and out of hand.

The emotions involved in this kind of discussion are sparked, in my opinion, by simple words such as "cruel" or "uneducated." I think people would feel less defensive if the wording was different, such as "I don't like them personally." or "I think there are better training methods." But the moment words like cruel or uneducated come into it, it takes it to a new emotional level. I can tell you it is a VERY distressing feeling when you feel like someone is saying or implying that you are cruel to your beloved furkids. I would be very hesitant to use the word "cruel" unless someone is deliberately being neglectful or hurtful to their dog. As far as education, it all depends on where one gains their education. I have read and looked at many books and a great many of them differ in their training methods by a lot.

Many people have very different ideas on what cruelty is. I was accused of being cruel to my collies once while I was out hiking, because Cody was wearing a doggie backpack and the person felt that was cruel to make him wear it. This was despite his tail wagging and him happily trotting along wearing his pack. What I'm saying though is that I believe all of us here feel passionate about our dogs and love them beyond words, and that is why when we see the words cruel in reference to something we do or have done, it is very hurtful and distressing. I am sure some of you recall another thread where someone believed that crating dogs was cruel.

As far as this collar, I do not use it as a training tool, but have used it a few times for specific situations when walking Tommy in areas of traffic and startling noises. I will explain briefly my reasoning. Tommy has timidity issues and sometimes tries to bolt when something frightens him. He is a large dog, stronger than me, and for a couple YEARS I used a gentle leader when walking him to make sure he couldn't bolt and tear his leash out of my hands and barrel into oncoming traffic. For almost two years, his tail was between his legs, and he was miserable on every walk that involved this head collar. I tried everything to get him accustomed to it so he wouldn't be miserable, but he just was, he hated that thing on his face. With some misgivings, I picked up a prong collar one day and tried it. First walk, his tail was up, wagging, and he was happy for most of the walk. One thing startled him and he jumped and pulled, but let up when it got uncomfortable. He was actually more confident and less jumpy without halter collar.

I haven't used it in months now, he's getting better and better all the time. I am working with him diligently, using only positive methods in training. I do not really see it as a training tool, but neither do I see the halti as a training tool. They are insurance, I suppose Band-aid is a good word for it but sometimes you need a band-aid in certain situations.

Do I believe they have the potential to be used cruelly? Yes. I also do not believe they should EVER be put on a young puppy, and never before a dog is properly leash trained. Those are my beliefs.

Just please, when disagreeing with a training method, try to be careful in your wording, disagree and say the methods you prefer, but try to avoid words like "cruel," otherwise the person is immediatley put on the defensive, and may possibly close their minds to your advice at that point. Of course if you saw someone actually hurting their dog and abusing deliberately, that would be different, but I truly do not believe that of anyone here. :)

Jessica,

I know you said you were not directing that to anyone, but since I'm one of the only ones with those opinions, I can only assume :p

I told her SEVERAL times I was not calling her uneducated. She latched on to that word and wouldn't let go or listen to me. I can't really do anything about that.

I may have used the word cruel in my post because it was in my head from the title of this thread. I told Naomi on MSN that cruel was probably too strong of a word. I do think that a lot of people who use it do make it cruel though. I do not think anyone here is cruel, but that doesn't mean I agree with those training methods at all.

I will back down from almost any disagreement, unless it is something that I feel so passionately about. This is obviously one of those things. I made it as clear as possible that I was not doubting anyone here or accusing them of being bad trainers. I also made it clear I wasn't calling anyone uneducated. So I still feel justified in my wording.

(Sorry Micki, I'm trying :o )