Non-debating religious thread...let's learn!! :)

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Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
[B]

How could God Almighty have a son like a human being?
exactly like you said ... He is God Almighty... he spoke this universe into existance... He can do anything:)

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Of course God can do anything, but my point in asking this was isn't saying God could have a son like people degrading to God? Or does the Bible mean something else when it refers to Jesus as His *son*. Does it mean his *slave* or his *servant*? I ask this because I believe God is Supreme. He does not compare to His *creation*. I believe we are inferior before God, and that begetting a child is a characteristic of mankind, of animals, of God's creation, not of God Himself. If you're wondering why I feel this way, this is what the Quran says about this issue....

"Had God wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is God, the One, the Irresistible. (The Noble Quran, 39:4)"

"To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 6:101)"

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"They say: 'God hath begotten a son' :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. (The Noble Quran, 2:116)"

One more Question

Do you believe all Christians will go to Heaven. If one believes in Jesus being the son of God, will that person go to heaven, in your faith, no matter how sinful he was in his life? What if he was a murderer, robber, raper, etc. but he said he *believed*. Will he go to heaven and be *saved* even if he never repented? If so, why?

Without going into a lot of detail right this second, Popcornbird, I believe that "repentance" is the key. Our God is a forgiving God, when people repent of their sins, regardless of the sin (thus my words regarding divorce in the other thread).

This is so interesting. I will be back with my thoughts on other questions later.

Logan

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Originally posted by popcornbird

One more Question

Do you believe all Christians will go to Heaven. If one believes in Jesus being the son of God, will that person go to heaven, in your faith, no matter how sinful he was in his life? What if he was a murderer, robber, raper, etc. but he said he *believed*. Will he go to heaven and be *saved* even if he never repented? If so, why?

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Not sure you are asking Sara or just anyone so here i go again - OK? The "Visable" Christian Church is made up of believers and unbelievers and only God knows who are the true believers. Some people may live really pious and good, moral lives on the outside, but harbor evil , hate and unbelief on the inside where God sees. On the other hand, some people who are honest believers may seriously struggle with horrible sins and never quite get them under control and yet they are forgiven because of their repentance and get to go to heaven. Again, only God knows. But God also says that a persons actions tell alot about the heart. Someone who repeatedly sins - especially something like rape, murder etc and with no remorse - it is very doubtful that this person is a believer at all. Of course there is always room for a miracle and a conversion and this person can change:rolleyes: (remember the thief on the cross?) Unrepented sin in NOT forgiven. If a person knowingly and willfully continues in a known sin, he is in danger of losing his salvation. This is another denominational divisive controversy among different Christians. Lutherans do not adhere to "once saved, always saved". It might be semantics in that the unrepentant sinner may never have actually been saved at all (like Judas) - God only knows, but there sure are alot of warnings in the Bible to think that salvation is a stamped ticket to heaven.
I hate to keep using "Lutheran" because I do not even belong to them anymore - that is just where I did most of my learning and where I feel the Bible is best taught. At this point of my life, I do not know where I fit, although I know I wish to be part of a worshipping body of believers. Like many, I have had heartbreak at the hands of institutional organized denominational religion. I would rather say I am a Christian, am spiritual and have faith rather than I am religious, etc.

Now I have a question for PCB -
As a Muslim - you believe in and love Jesus the Prophet - does this mean you read the Bible the same as Christians? How do you learn about Jesus?

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Originally posted by sirrahbed


Now I have a question for PCB -
As a Muslim - you believe in and love Jesus the Prophet - does this mean you read the Bible the same as Christians? How do you learn about Jesus?

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We know of Jesus from the Quran, the Holy Book revealed to Prophet Muhammad, from God. As Muslims, we are required to believe God revealed the Torah to Moses, and the Bible to Jesus. We do believe those books too, were the true words of God, however, we believe certain parts in these books have been altered, or written by man over the centuries, so we cannot take everything in them as what God originally revealed at the time of Moses and Jesus. We believe the Quran is a completion, of the whole message sent by God, until the end of time. We also believe that the Bible, and Torah, foretold the coming of Prophet Mohammad. I'm not sure if this part is still included in the Bible, but we do believe that. The Jews and Christians, before the coming of Mohammad, used to tell the people about the coming of a Prophet, that God would send to mankind. That is why so many Jews and Christians converted to Islam when Prophet Mohammad came. They felt that was the Prophet God had told them about. So many others, also rejected him, and their reason for that was because he came from the generations of Prophet Ishmael, and not Prophet Isaac, but their leaders did acknowledge he was the prophet God had foretold them about. They just refused to accept it. If you're curious about this, you should watch the movie *The Message*. It really clarifies things about the beginning of Islam, and has quite a bit about Jesus in it as well.

In other words, we do not believe God sent different religions. We believe God sent the same message, to Moses, to Jesus, to Mohammad, and to every other Prophet, and with time, it was the people who altered God's words, either knowingly, or unknowingly, but we believe the Quran to be the completed message from God, and the same message that God originally sent to Jesus, and Moses, etc.

What the Quran says about Jesus is as follows:

16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((God)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."

19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((God)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

28. "O sister of Aaron! (it means sister as in all believers are sisters and brothers.......not literally) Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

30. He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of God. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

36. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
Quran: 19 Mary, 16-36

Sorry I didn't see this post sooner, or I would have replied sooner, since I started the other thread on religion. And really (really!) I was just venting, as I find religious stuff distasteful when its in an inappropriate place. and what I consider inappropriate is purely personal :-)

I never, ever mind a serious discussion of religion in the proper context and tried to learn about every major religion (and some minor ones) when I was in college.

For my own beliefs, I was raised Jewish, but found that, for me, it didn't fill my needs. I moved away from that, and did a lot of reading and soul searching, and I guess the closest thing I am now is Buddhist. I believe in cause and effect (karma), and that whatever we do we will reap the effect of it in this life or the next. I believe in compassion for all living things.I believe that each of us has some of the infinite inside of us, just struggling to emerge. I believe in reincarnation, because I just can't believe that this one life is all that's allotted to us. I try to live my life
according to my own inner moral code, rather than trying to follow rules laid out by someone else.

I'm finding everyone's posts very interesting, and thank you for starting this thread WolfChan.

In a hurry and just skimming,
but to answer the Jesus/man thing, it's the concept of the Triune God. We believe that, while made man, Jesus is the true son of God yet still one in the same. That is the concept of triune God- although it is admittedly difficult to understand. God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Think of it like an egg- there is a shell, the white and the yolk. But it's still an egg.
Because Jesus was immaculately conceived, we believe he was God, incarnate made flesh, as spoken in the Nicene Creed. There was no sex between mary and Joseph. The conception was immaculate. Hence, the miracle of the Virgin Birth. Born of a virgin= Born of a miracle. God incarnate. (imho)

Babies are human. Humans are filled with Original Sin- the sin of Eve. The sin of just plain old being human. Nothing we can do about it- we're just born that way. So, we get baptised as a baby to remove that original sin. NOTE: This is my view as a Lutheran. I do not believe that all Christian sects believe this.

Then we create our actual sins through deeds and thoughts. These are sins for which we must ask God for forgiveness. It doesn't matter if you're saying God, Jesus, or Holy Ghost. All the same thing:)



Well, that probably didn't clear anything else, but I just think of the egg!;)

Do you believe all Christians will go to Heaven. If one believes in Jesus being the son of God, will that person go to heaven, in your faith, no matter how sinful he was in his life?

No... i believe there are a lot of people who say they are christians and will not go to heaven. It takes A LOT more than just believing in Jesus being the son of God.. even the devil believes and knows who Jesus is and you won't see him in heaven... ;)

I believe it doesn't matter what sin a person did in their past.. when they truly give their heart to the Lord... they come into repentance.. then they are saved and will go to heaven.. (i am not sure of the exact wording) but the Bible says that a persons joy will turn to sorrow when they are saved.. because they will be so sorrowful for the things they have done in their past... that they will morn for it.

Of course God can do anything, but my point in asking this was isn't saying God could have a son like people degrading to God? Or does the Bible mean something else when it refers to Jesus as His *son*. Does it mean his *slave* or his *servant*?

Jesus was not God's slave or servant... he is one with God...:cool:

After satan tricked Adam and Eve into sin.. the devil pretty much had control over the Earth again.. so for spiritual legality reasons Jesus had to come to earth in the flesh and when he was resurrected after the third day he conquered death and took the keys to death and hell.. so i hope that makes sinse...

:)

If you're wondering why I feel this way, this is what the Quran says about this issue....

no problem.. i am enjoying learning about everyone elses' beliefs!!:D

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Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky


Jesus was not God's slave or servant... he is one with God...:cool:

After satan tricked Adam and Eve into sin.. the devil pretty much had control over the Earth again.. so for spiritual legality reasons Jesus had to come to earth in the flesh and when he was resurrected after the third day he conquered death and took the keys to death and hell.. so i hope that makes sinse...

:)

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Ahhh, I keep getting more and more confused. :o:o LOL!

If that's the case, then what about other Prophets? Like Moses, David, Noah, Solomon, etc. You do believe them to be Prophets, right? They, too, were sent with miracles. They too, were sent by God. They too (well some of them) were sent with books from God. So why is it that Jesus is any different? Why is Jesus, a *part* of God, from your beliefs, and not the other men sent my God? :confused:I know Jesus was born with no father, but Adam was born with no father OR mother. Why isn't he *part* of God? :confused:

Also, what do you think about the people before Jesus? Where will they go? We believe there were Prophets from the start of mankind, and that God's message was the same, always, so those who believed and followed the Prophets sent by God to them, even before Mohammad, will still go to heaven. But what do you believe on this? The people before Jesus.........the ones who didn't know Jesus, because they were born before the *Savior* was born?

Sorry for all these questions........I'm just so curious, and I like learning about other beliefs. It gives me a broader perspective when I can compare.

I can probably answer these ones ...

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Ahhh, I keep getting more and more confused. :o:o LOL!

If that's the case, then what about other Prophets? Like Moses, David, Noah, Solomon, etc. You do believe them to be Prophets, right? They, too, were sent with miracles. They too, were sent by God. They too (well some of them) were sent with books from God. So why is it that Jesus is any different?

Those men were prophets in their time, and their messages came from God. The Old Testament spoke of a Promised Messiah. When that Messiah came to Earth (Jesus), he said that He was the Promised Messiah. To believe that He is who He says He is is to have faith, and many at the time did not.

Why is Jesus, a *part* of God, from your beliefs, and not the other men sent my God? :confused:

The other men sent by God were sent as prophets, as "messengers" alone. Jesus also had messages for God's people, but most importantly, he was the "sacrificial lamb" for believer's sins.

I know Jesus was born with no father, but Adam was born with no father OR mother. Why isn't he *part* of God? :confused:

Adam was created from the sands of the earth. Adam also was created in "God's image" and therefore, to some extent, bears some of God's characteristics. Jesus, however IS God (which comes back to the whole Trinity thing - which I had best explained to me as follows: imagine a box with light contained in it. Now imagine that the box has three holes, which are different shapes. Those three holes represent God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. While one and the same, they are three ways of seeing God). This kinda sounds confusing, but this example is supposed to open your mind to the possibility ... understanding the trilogy is easiest when you don't try to make it sound too logical ...

Also, what do you think about the people before Jesus? Where will they go? We believe there were Prophets from the start of mankind, and that God's message was the same, always, so those who believed and followed the Prophets sent by God to them, even before Mohammad, will still go to heaven. But what do you believe on this? The people before Jesus.........the ones who didn't know Jesus, because they were born before the *Savior* was born?

God's people, the Jews, who lived before Jesus' time achieved honour in the eyes of God in the "old" ways of sacrificing animals to the Lord. Jesus, in the New Testament changed everything by himself becoming the sacrificial lamb, therefore believers after his time need follow His instructions in order to go to heaven.


Sorry for all these questions........I'm just so curious, and I like learning about other beliefs. It gives me a broader perspective when I can compare.

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No worries ... I am not what you would call a practicing Christian, per se, but I was raised as such and it is hard to walk away from years of belief even if you've lost faith in the Christian church :)

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Why is Jesus, a *part* of God, from your beliefs, and not the other men sent my God?

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'Cause God says so, that's why! ;) Seriously ... that's the reason, I suppose ... because that's what the Bible says.

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Also, what do you think about the people before Jesus? Where will they go? We believe there were Prophets from the start of mankind, and that God's message was the same, always, so those who believed and followed the Prophets sent by God to them, even before Mohammad, will still go to heaven. But what do you believe on this? The people before Jesus.........the ones who didn't know Jesus, because they were born before the *Savior* was born?

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That is an EXCELLENT question. I have often wondered about that myself. Frankly, the whole thing with Jesus brings up a zillion questions for me. I suppose it does for anyone ... except those rare and wonderful people, like my dear Grandma, who simply believe the Bible, word for word, at face value, without a thought of questioning anything. That is TRUE faith ... and, alas, I don't have it, I suppose. My mom says that Jews who lived before Jesus, and believed in God, will go to Heaven and be saved ... because they were following God's word and worshipping him. They couldn't very well worship someone who didn't exist on Earth yet. Which opens another can of worms for me.....

God was just God, and his followers were Jews. All was well for thousands of years. All of a sudden, God sends his son down to Earth as a baby named Jesus, and all the Jews are supposed to change their belief over night ... beliefs they have held for thousands of years. They are supposed to say, "Ooops, we were wrong. We aren't Jews anymore ... now we're Christians. We will follow the teachings of this young radical, proclaiming to be the son of God, and we will abandon the only religion we have ever known ... a religion which was just fine with God only yesterday, mind you. And if we don't, suddenly we'll go to Hell." Uuummmmm, ok. Sorry, but that doesn't sound very fair to me. I've always wondered about that. :confused:



PCB, here's what I was taught about the trinity as a child: There is one God. He created Jesus, to go out to people on earth. He created the Holy Spirit, to go out to people in their thoughts and minds. Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created by God, so they are parts of God himself ... made from his holiness. Make sense? Of course not!! ;)

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As Muslims, we are required to believe God revealed the Torah to Moses, and the Bible to Jesus. We do believe those books too, were the true words of God, however, we believe certain parts in these books have been altered, or written by man over the centuries, so we cannot take everything in them as what God originally revealed at the time of Moses and Jesus.

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PCB, I am more and more impressed by your religion as I read your posts, PCB. It seems to me that Islam is much more tolerant and open-minded toward Judaism and Christianity then Judaism and Christianity are towards Islam.

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In other words, we do not believe God sent different religions. We believe God sent the same message, to Moses, to Jesus, to Mohammad, and to every other Prophet,

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That is a very interesting, and appealing, idea. I'll have to give that one some thought ......

Great thread!

My beliefs are fairly simple. (At least I think so.)

I'm a Christian. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I don't believe that banging on people's doors or going to church is necessary in order to love God.

I believe that the only thing that you need to do is love and accept Christ in order to get into Heaven because our God is a forgiving God. I think that we should love Christ enough to want to do good deeds, but I don't think it's mandatory to be perfect in order to get in.

I practice Yellow Labrador Obsessism- oh wait, that's not a religion...

I'm (100%) atheist. Not much to it.

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Originally posted by Tonya
Great thread!

My beliefs are fairly simple. (At least I think so.)

I'm a Christian. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I don't believe that banging on people's doors or going to church is necessary in order to love God.

I believe that the only thing that you need to do is love and accept Christ in order to get into Heaven because our God is a forgiving God. I think that we should love Christ enough to want to do good deeds, but I don't think it's mandatory to be perfect in order to get in.

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Tonya, THANK YOU ... this is my faith EXACTLY ... I didn't think I really identified with Deism, as I still love and believe in Jesus ... but I am kinda outside the church at the moment and kinda going through some "disagreements" with God :)

Boy have I been out of the loop!

I was raised Catholic. As a kid, I thought it was great. As a young adult, I have had many issues with the religion. But since this is talking about our religion, and not debating it...

for PCB: I have always understood the trinity but can't really explain it. To me, The Father, Son and The Holy Ghosts are one in the same, but each has different roles... kind of like you can be wife, mother, daughter (if you're not a mother, pick another role :) )... you are still you, but you play different roles throughout your life, with different people and different reasons. So imagine putting yourself a triangle - the whole of you is the triangle, but you should divide yourself equally among your various roles. Thats about the best way to describe it. I am in no way a religious explainer. :D

Baptism is a symbolic ceremony where the priest washes away original sin. Thats about it for baptism.

I am Catholic and define my beliefs that way. I do not attend church, rather I beleive that every person in themselves is the church. In 5th grade, my teacher wrote CHURCH on the board and said the UR in church meant that YOU ARE... that was very powerful to me for some reason and I have never forgotten it. I carry my beliefs with me everywhere I go. I try to be the ebst person possible.

Since this thread is about religion, I thought you might be interested to know that my father is Faith Tabernacle. That is the religion that beleives in God's will and does not take medicine or go to doctors. My mom was considered and outsider and a "worldly person" when she married him, and the marriage didn;t last long because of the persecution she received form his family and the church. I know nothing of the religion other than they are very zealous and strict.

My Father-in-law is Mennonite. He's in the new order - which means they are allowed to own regular cars (old order own cars, but paint the bumpers balck - nothing flashy is allowed.) I know next to nothing about this religion too.... FIL would gladly talk for hours about it and it tends to turn everyone off since he's preachy about it. :rolleyes: If anyone's interested, I can ask him questions about it tomorrow. :)