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From what I can tell I am with Ginger's Mom - the problem I see with it is people going where Powerlounger just did. That's the extreme in the other direction that I just do *not* agree with. Especially considering many responsable breeders are also active in rescue.
~Cate
Puppy mill guidelines are horrindous. According to them the dogs on oprah were not mistreated...
What it means to be a blue ribbon kennel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdI2U6dgA8Y
Usda's puppymill guidelines...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4r-FcXAXcE
Also I do not condemn anyone for going to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't go to any breeder for a dog though...I will always go to my local high kill shelter. I feel horribly for all the millions of dogs who are euthanized in shelters and until this problem is solved I think all breeders reputable or not should cut back on their breeding...
Thanks for posting these links. I just watched them and it's horrible.:( Now I know why there are so many dogs living in horrible conditions at the puppymills. It's so sad.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by 3muttsandaboston
I feel the same way. I -personally- wouldnt go to a breeder, and I try to steer people to shelters when theyre looking for a new dog.. but I wouldnt look down on someone because they went to a breeder. A reputable breeder anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3muttsandaboston
I too would rather frequent the local shelters. I love my rescue doggies.
If you are a reputable breeder, it is your duty to help homeless pets of your devoted breed. That's how I see it.
Most of the breeders I consider 'reputable' are very active in breed rescue and regularly foster/rescue. Their heart dogs are often (would you know it?) mutts from the local shelter.
I didn't catch Oprah's show, but did she talk about the ethics of breeding? i.e. backyard breeding ("I think Fido and Fifi should be bred just once for the kids to witness?")
Always baffles me as to why rescuers and responsible breeders/owners need to be pitted against each other. We’re on the same side. Responsible breeders are trying to better the breeds. They screen potential buyers and require spay/neuter contracts and take back any dog to ensure their dogs don’t end up in rescue. Responsible breeders/owners are not adding to the problem.
I’ve always felt one of the great things about dogs is that they were bred to perform all kinds of different functions. That they can not only be wonderful companions and family, but are capable to work as partners with man in many endeavors, really sets them apart from other animals. That’s why we have seeing eye dogs and police dogs and herding dogs and search and rescue dogs, etc. and my favorite since I have Smooth Collies, Alzheimer Guide Dogs. They’ve tried different breeds but weren’t successful until they tried a Smooth Collie. They needed a breed with a high spatial sense for the most important “Home” command, which was key to the program for when the Alzheimer patient became confused and lost. For whatever reason, that highly desirable trait seems to be apart of the Collie breed. Do we want to stop purebred breeding and lose these types of things?
Rescuing definitely needs to be supported, but we can’t toss aside one of the things that makes dogs special, the different breeds and their functions, by not supporting responsible breeding too. To witness them going extinct would also be very sad indeed.
Par...
IMO breeds of dogs were created to serve a purpose. Responsible breeders make sure that thier lines produce dogs that serve that purpose. If everyone got dogs from a shelter and no one bred, what dogs would be used for hunting, hearding ect. Dogs work, and some are better at some jobs than others.
Adopting from a shelter is a great idea when looking for a companion animal but very rarely can they perform a specialzed job (there are cases where they have though!
And even if you adopt a shelter dog, you aren't saving all of them. Adopting from a shelter takes the same time, concidration and care as picking a breeder. You have to pick a dog that fits your situation. Blindly rescuing a dog could end up with the dog right back in the shelter, and often this is the case when people don't evaluate why they want a dog.
Responsiblity is the issue here, whether it be in breeding or in shelters. Shutting down breeders isn't going to make people any more responsible. Awareness of the issues are.
Edit: I just said basically the same thing you did, par lol.
Firstly, I am stating a simple fact. Breeders provide dogs. So do shelters. People want dogs. And they have that choice as to where to go to get a dog. Go to that breeder, a dog in a shelter dies. But some breeder has a fatter wallet. Deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger's Mom
Yup, taking that deep breath now, big mama.
You need to go re-read ParNone's remarks and you also need to rein in the attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerlounger
I am a poodle person. I do not apologize for that. This is a breed that I have owned since 1970. I am also a person who is not happy with what has happened to this breed by mixing it with numerous others and then adding a *poo* on the end. :mad: This is being done intentionally by breeders of *designer dogs* :rolleyes: and irresponsible people who do not neuter or spay and wind up with these mixtures. Whatever the reason, I do not want to see the day come when there will not be GOOD poodle breeders in the world.
Before Ripley all of my dogs came from breeders, some better than others, as I have come to realize. Ripley is my only rescue. He is a poodle for sure (I don't see anything else in him) and I love him just as much as any of my dogs. I was lucky to find him in a shelter but I would not hesitate to go through a breed rescue should I want to add another poodle to my life.
The goal here is a person's freedom to choose or not. Good breeders are not the problem. How can you not see that? :confused:
You should take a deep breath before you "speak" not after. You may find it helps you to think better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerlounger
You misunderstand the difference between people who love animals and people who own animals. People who love animals will go to a reputable breeder to obtain an animal that is bred for certain characteristics and abilities. That is not true of most of the dogs found at shelters (if a reputable breeder had bred the dog, he/she would have taken the dog back). They are looking for a dog that can do certain things without causing stress or possible injury to the dog (agility, hunting, frisbee, and many other activities). They get a dog that can perform that function. In addition to that dog, animal lovers may or may not have dogs/animals from the shelter. Whether they do or do not doesn't matter, what does matter is that they are not going to get a dog from a shelter for this particular purpose. So no shelter dog will be saved. Please note that we are at all times talking about reputable breeders, which has a much higher standard than someone who has two purebred dogs that do not have any known health problems. People who own animals are not the ones going to reputable breeders, people who love animals are.
Unfortunately, in your scenario, no one would be spending the time and money to develop dogs whose bodies and organs can actually perform the activities they were bred to do and that we enjoy doing with them. So rather than contributing money to the local animal welfare agencies we are spending money on knee surgeries, or glucosamine, or heart medicines for our poorly bred dogs.
What kind of convoluted logic is this?? Are you saying this with a straight face?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger's Mom
You can find any characteristic or ability with a shelter dog. You may have to actually put effort into it, but they are there. And people who disqualify shelter dogs on that basis are morons.
Breeding is a business. Breeders are not in it for the breed. They are in it for the MONEY.
People who go to breeders should know they can find just as good a dog at a shelter. They want a purebred, go to a purebred rescue.
ADOPT. NEVER BUY.
As for my 'attitude', Pam, it's great. Gonna keep it.
I think "some people" need to start acting like adults. There's such a thing as having different or opposing opinions but we should all be able to be mature and respectful. NOBODY learns from being yelled at. People learn from being EDUCATED. Telling someone they're wrong and being rude about it is only going to turn them away! A soft gentle voice is heard much louder than any array of harsh words.
If anyone wants to speculate if this is about you, feel free to PM me, chances are it's not about you lol
Exactly Jessika being rude only turns people away from your ideas powerlounger, most of the folks here on pettalk are not part of the pet over population problem, you are preaching to the choir as they say. I have learned so much here and not by you, I bought Bubba from a byb 3.5 years ago, would I do that again? ...no because of what I have learned here, stop pointing the finger at people here its ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessika
I am actually very good at saying things with a straight face. Especially when I have seen so many people find that their pound puppies weren't physically fit enough to run and play. Of course they love their dogs and continue to do whatever is necessary to keep them healthy comfortable and safe. They will continue to go the the shelter and support the shelter, but when looking for a dog for a purpose, they will find someone who knows all of the intricacies of proper breeding. Let us hope that dog breeds don't all tangle into a mash of dogs found at shelters with no identifying breed characteristics or health standards.
Personally, I would much rather get rid of all of the puppy mills, backyard breeders, and unaltered pet/multi-breed dogs out there. But, you go ahead and continue your cry against responsible breeding. Maybe you will get your wish one day, and all of the reputable breeds will cease to exist. I, personally, would be shocked if that put an end (or even made a significant dent in) the need for animal shelters, and yes even euthanasia. But please do go on and continue to enjoy that "attitude" of yours. It seems to be working well.
Actually, your attitude isn't "great", so maybe you should try being a little nicer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerlounger
So everyone who gets a dog from a reputable breeder is a horrible person? Is that what you are trying to say? Everyone who pays top dollar for a well bred, healthy dog is a moron? First of all without breeders(reputable), we wouldn't even have dog breeds, so your logic confuses me, greatly.
Adopting from a shelter is fine but so is getting an animal from a reputable breeder. People who breed dogs responsibly barely make enough money to support themselves then they use all the money to properly breed more dogs. It can't be a very good business unless you are breeding dogs poorly.
By the way, I got my maltese from a breeder, a good one and I am not sorry for it. As for future pets, if I want a certain breed I will go to a good breeder but I will always consider adoption and donate to my local shelter.