Walking On A Leash UPDATED PICTURES

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Originally Posted by SunsetRose

She's a beautiful dog!

I don't blame you for not wanting to choke her or use methods like that....There's no need for them anyway and I don't understand why people would want to cause pain to their dog when there are ways of doing it with treats and praise and love.

I was just reading a book last night and it mentioned a new type of harness that is becoming popular. Unlike most harnesses in which you snap the leash on the back, this new design allows you to snap it on in front at the dogs chest. It uses a similar concept to a GL or halti it seems, making it more difficult for the dog to pull and causing the dog to turn around towards you if it does lunge or pull.

Maybe somebody here who has used one before can share their experience using it.

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Cesar's way is the only way (IMO)

Before I knew about Cesar, I was using the methods all of you seem to use. Dog walks in front, even though not pulling. He's had a few problems, and I've tried fixing them with "treats and praise and love". Didn't work in the slightest. Nor did I have the patience to use these things, and when I did, nothing changed.
Anyway, I did end up getting a GL harness, it's called "Easy Walk". Doesn't work. For me, gentle leader and putting the choke chain at the top of the neck works very well. And yes, they can put their head down when it is at the top of the neck, because there is slack on the leash. This method is acheived by using slack on the leash because if there was none, this just gives the dog more power. This way it is easier to throw the dog "off balance" and snap him out of it when he is misbehaving. When a dog is walking in front, even if it is not pulling, this allows for other problems (agressions, anxiety, etc.) to develop. Like it or not, when a dog is in front you, it IS the pack leader. It is perfectly natural for them to be at your side, because a walk is a mental and physical exercise, the mental part being the dog focusing completely on you. Dogs do this naturally, because when following the pack leader and travel together, as this is how they form bonds. You never see them running in front of them, sniffing off on their own, because that would make THEM the pack leader, because they're running their own parade! (think of sled dogs).


cianara

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Originally Posted by whalelover

Cesar's way is the only way (IMO)

Before I knew about Cesar, I was using the methods all of you seem to use. Dog walks in front, even though not pulling. He's had a few problems, and I've tried fixing them with "treats and praise and love". Didn't work in the slightest. Nor did I have the patience to use these things, and when I did, nothing changed.
Anyway, I did end up getting a GL harness, it's called "Easy Walk". Doesn't work. For me, gentle leader and putting the choke chain at the top of the neck works very well. And yes, they can put their head down when it is at the top of the neck, because there is slack on the leash. This method is acheived by using slack on the leash because if there was none, this just gives the dog more power. This way it is easier to throw the dog "off balance" and snap him out of it when he is misbehaving. When a dog is walking in front, even if it is not pulling, this allows for other problems (agressions, anxiety, etc.) to develop. Like it or not, when a dog is in front you, it IS the pack leader. It is perfectly natural for them to be at your side, because a walk is a mental and physical exercise, the mental part being the dog focusing completely on you. Dogs do this naturally, because when following the pack leader and travel together, as this is how they form bonds. You never see them running in front of them, sniffing off on their own, because that would make THEM the pack leader, because they're running their own parade! (think of sled dogs).


cianara

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How interesting!! ;) I guess when my dog runs ahead of me to do an obstacle in agility, I'm letting it know it's the pack leader!! :eek: Guess I don't know what I'm doing with my Agility Champion dog!!

Letting your dog go ahead of you when walking certainly does not mean it's in control. If you're still in control of where to go, then it doesn't matter where your dog is. I find some of this "pack leader" stuff quite silly. This would be one. Yes, if your dog is pulling you around, then it is in control. No, if your dog walks in front of you but still responds to your movements to turn and go a different direction, then YOU'RE in control.

Secondly, you bet the treats didn't work for you. You even admited why. You lack patience. You want a quick fix when a well-trained dog takes time and patience to develop. Sure, a collar pop will get your dog to behave. No one said it wouldn't. But, what collar pops do is damage the relationship between you and your dog. How do I know? As I've posted many times before (so those of you who have read this can skip to the end), I used to train that way. The bond I have with my dogs trained with treats and praise is SO MUCH BETTER than the bond I had with the dogs trained using the force training methods you are mentioning. It's why people are abandoning those "old school" methods (like the one's Cesar uses) for the new positve methods. The results are better, AND the bond is incredible. I know you'll say, "But you don't know, I've got a great bond with my dog." Yes, that's what I thought using those old methods, too. However, I know better now.

The difference is I've successfully used your method AND mine. The new positive methods are heads and tails better than the old pop and jerk methods. Poor Cesar is living in the stone age of dog training...

BTW, did you clicker train? You said you lack patience. This is why the fun treat method didn't work for you.

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Originally Posted by whalelover

Cesar's way is the only way (IMO)

slightest. Nor did I have the patience to use these things, and when I did, nothing changed.

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I guess you could technically still think you're in control, but in a dog's mind, if it's the one in front, they think that they're leading, cause they are. Even if you pull to go somewhere else, if it turns and goes in front of you again, same problem.

The methods you use seem to be dog training. Cesar's methods are dog psychology. Dog training is essentially applying human psychology on a dog (positive reinforcement) in order to get it to do what you want (tricks). Dog psychology is just that. His methods aren't outdated, they're just different than dog training, as he ISN'T and never claims to be a dog trainer. If using dog psychology on a dog is outdated and using human psychology on a dog is the new "better way to do things", something doesn't seem right with that picture.
Dog training sessions generally are meant to be full of fun and excitement. It's meant to get the dog into a hyper state so that they will be more willing to do what you ask. Lots of people think that their dog is much happier doing this, but lots of times the truth is, he is just excited. And sure, feeding it treats all the time will of course get you a better bond with your dog. You're bribing it.

If I wanted a dog that was an agility champion, of course I would use your training methods. I'm talking about fixing a dog's problems that are psychological.

Yes, I have whistle trained, which is the same as clicker training pretty much. It may work to get dogs to do different behaviors/tricks, but it doesn't work as far as fulfilling a dog's needs go. I have never seen Cesar be overly harsh on a dog. "Physical correction in dog training language can range anywhere between a quick jerk on a training collar to an alpha dog roll.
Beating the sh*t out of a dog is NOT any part of physical correction, nor is it ever recommended."
Until I see a dog trainer have an entire pack of formerly red zone agressive pit bulls all living together 24/7 in one pack, I'm sticking with Cesar.

Cesar's beliefs on control may apply in a pack setting, but they seldom apply in normal everday life or in many working conditions.

The little tiny dog that runs behind the owner clawing at their legs to be picked up and the dog whose head is continuously being forcefully held up by a choke chain just so it can go for a walk are still just as much in control as the dog that's dragging it's owner down the street.

The choke chain (I hate that name) is only effective if used properly as a training tool simply to let the dog know what is expected; and not as a method of control .

Just to name a few; the sheep dogs, pointing breeds, search and rescue dogs etc. must work in front of their handlers or they would be useless at their jobs. Yet these dogs are not the ones in control. Instead they are under complete control of their handlers at all times.

Every dog trainer or behaviorist has some valuable knowledge to share. Since no two dogs are exactly alike, the danger comes when we as pet owners lock ourselves into one method only and refuse to consider reasonable alternatives.

9 times out of 10, lack of consistency in any type of training from housebreaking to going for a simple walk is usually the real cause of behavior problems!

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Originally Posted by whalelover

I guess you could technically still think you're in control, but in a dog's mind, if it's the one in front, they think that they're leading, cause they are.

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That pretty much says it all in dog walking techniques. I also think
what Cesar says & does make perfect sense to me. His shows reflect
the effectiveness of Cesar's way. :) You are able to see transformations
in dog behaviours and the methods he uses to do it.


p.s. This subject can probably debated ad nauseum. Different people can have different methods and they can both be right for THEIR dogs. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whalelover

I guess you could technically still think you're in control, but in a dog's mind, if it's the one in front, they think that they're leading, cause they are. Even if you pull to go somewhere else, if it turns and goes in front of you again, same problem.

The methods you use seem to be dog training. Cesar's methods are dog psychology. Dog training is essentially applying human psychology on a dog (positive reinforcement) in order to get it to do what you want (tricks). Dog psychology is just that. His methods aren't outdated, they're just different than dog training, as he ISN'T and never claims to be a dog trainer. If using dog psychology on a dog is outdated and using human psychology on a dog is the new "better way to do things", something doesn't seem right with that picture.
Dog training sessions generally are meant to be full of fun and excitement. It's meant to get the dog into a hyper state so that they will be more willing to do what you ask. Lots of people think that their dog is much happier doing this, but lots of times the truth is, he is just excited. And sure, feeding it treats all the time will of course get you a better bond with your dog. You're bribing it.

If I wanted a dog that was an agility champion, of course I would use your training methods. I'm talking about fixing a dog's problems that are psychological.

Yes, I have whistle trained, which is the same as clicker training pretty much. It may work to get dogs to do different behaviors/tricks, but it doesn't work as far as fulfilling a dog's needs go. I have never seen Cesar be overly harsh on a dog. "Physical correction in dog training language can range anywhere between a quick jerk on a training collar to an alpha dog roll.
Beating the sh*t out of a dog is NOT any part of physical correction, nor is it ever recommended."
Until I see a dog trainer have an entire pack of formerly red zone agressive pit bulls all living together 24/7 in one pack, I'm sticking with Cesar.

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Wow. I'm sorry you so misunderstand dog training vs. dog psychology. I guess you've bought hook, line and sinker into Cesar's old methods. Trust me, they're old dog TRAINING...not dog psychology. It's what I used 30 years ago. The whole thing about the new training is that it IS based on psychology. Treat training is based on Operant Conditioning....it's based on how the dog's brain works to learn. This is a scientific leraning methods. Everyone who owns a dog should understand the difference between operant conditioning, classical conditioning and soclal learning. it's not based on being so overly controling and using harsh methods to get your dog to work for you out of fear. That's what punishment based methods like Cesar's use. Positve base methods use dog psychology... they use the now well-known understanding of how the dog's brain works.

If ind it interesting that Cesar, who doesn't have a university degree in animal studies, is so highly thought of when the folks who actually have SCIENTIFICALLY studied dogs using known scientific methods (including control groups, etc.) have found that the positive based training works better. That's why animal behaviorist....they're the "trainers" with the Masters degrees....don't like Cesar. It's why Tufts, one of the top vet universities in the nation, said Cesar has put dog training back 20 years. The reason is he's using 20 year old material and rehyping it. And, you've bought it. You believe it to be psychology. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's old fashioned dog TRAINING packaged to sell to those without complete understanding of the canine.

Dogs who are in front of someone when walking aren't in control. If they were, then why when I make the slightest movement in a different direction do my dogs move? Why do I hold my leash by my pinkie when walking? If my dog was in control, why does it obey my every command. Remember. I've got a highly trained agility dog. This isn't just some house dog. This dog has to obey even the slightest movement from me at a split second notice to get around an agility field. And, BTW, my dog is very fast and ALWAYS in front of me in agility. Yet, somehow, inspite of not being "in control" as you put it, we've managed to get a Championship. And, my students are the same. Amazingly enough, even though their dogs walk in front of them, they manage to have well-behaved dogs in the house and in the ring.

I think you need to spend some time at an agility trial. We don't WANT our dogs at our side. You won't see ANY dogs walking in heel position. Yet, you also won't see any dogs who are in control. What you will see are owners who have total and complete control at all times over dogs who are excited and happy.

I'm afraid you have limited experience here. It's sad what Cesar is doing to the dog-loving public. He really is putting dog training back 20 years. Pleease go find an agility trial near you and watch the dogs work. They are out front, but believe me, they are NOT in control. In fact, I find it rather offensive that you would indicate such based on no scientific research at all.

I have little time on the computer so I scanned through this and I'm printing it to read the rest. My dog WILL NOT heal. Tried just about everything, with ample time in between so he doesn't get confused. I can't get him to heal without being super submissive, and I don't want that. I feel so disconnected with him on the leash, I can't see his face or body language, really. I bought a halti and went through the conditioning to slowly get him used to it and he still would stop at every street corner and try to pull it off.

My Sophie (english cocker) is a terror on the leash, especially if we are in a new or exciting place (hike, beach, etc)--terrible puller. She's only 28 pounds, but when she gets going she can be a real struggle to deal with. I have tried the "don't move forward if pulling" routine with minimal success and alot of effort. I just got a gentle leader head collar, and I have to say, I think its a miracle. She doesn't really like it on her just yet, and we've only taken a couple short walks, but the increase in control is truly amazing.

Jakes mom