Staffs are they all vicious???

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02-05-2007, 06:38 PM
wolfsoul

I think that everyone needs to realise is that in a perfect world, there would be no need for animal shelters, people would buy from reputable breeders who have wonderfully tempered dogs, people would take their dogs to obedience school, they would take the time to train their dogs properly, breed instinct is something that can be countered all of the time, and nothing bad would ever happen. But we do not live in a perfect world. People are not perfect, and thus neither are dogs. Whether certain breeds are more prone to certain behaviours than others or not, it's not a breed thing. It's the fact that nothing is perfect. All hindsight does is tell us who was at fault, and whose fault it was for creating the behaviour of the one at fault, and so on and so on and so on. There is no perfect response to an animal killing another animal. It's just as simple as that.

We each have our own ways of reacting to such a situation. If my dog attacked a swan, and wouldn't release, I would beat on my dog to get it off. I wouldn't stand there and wish I had trained my dog better. If my dog was being attacked by another dog, and I couldn't reach it's hind legs, I would be beating the other dog off of my dog. The other dog not being trained properly does not mean my dog should get killed. That is my imperfect response to a poor situation.
02-05-2007, 06:40 PM
Love That Collie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow

Want pics of the dead ducks and geese from the neighbours JRT?

Get real! Any dog intent on killing an animal will do so, if it is not trained to release, and any owner of any breed that is specifically bred for hunting prey small or otherwise, that fails to teach is at fault.

Oh, for Gods sakes. Others were saying that terriers are driven by prey and that's true BUT it's the DAMAGE that can be and is caused due to the strength of it's (Pit) jaws. I doubt that it would have taken much "beating" to get the dog off the swan or kid or anything else HAD it been a JRT. I'll take one bite from a JRT any day as compared to a Pit.
02-05-2007, 06:50 PM
DrKym

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love That Collie

Oh, for Gods sakes. Others were saying that terriers are driven by prey and that's true BUT it's the DAMAGE that can be and is caused due to the strength of it's (Pit) jaws. I doubt that it would have taken much "beating" to get the dog off the swan or kid or anything else HAD it been a JRT. I'll take one bite from a JRT any day as compared to a Pit.

Point I made was obviously lost. This thread is not about the damage that can be inflicted, as that is an obvious thing given the size difference.
For the record, a Pits jaws have less strength PSI in a bite than a Rottweilers. This has been tested and proven. They are about equal give or take 10 pounds PSI with GSD.
Given the 3 I would rather be bitten by the pit.
02-05-2007, 06:54 PM
luvofallhorses

what is PSI?
02-05-2007, 06:57 PM
DrKym

Pounds per Square Inch, meaning how much pressure is actually applied in a bite per square inch of flesh.
02-05-2007, 07:03 PM
luvofallhorses

oh okay, thanks for the explination! :) I just haven't heard that term used before.
02-05-2007, 07:07 PM
Love That Collie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow

Point I made was obviously lost. This thread is not about the damage that can be inflicted, as that is an obvious thing given the size difference.
For the record, a Pits jaws have less strength PSI in a bite than a Rottweilers. This has been tested and proven. They are about equal give or take 10 pounds PSI with GSD.
Given the 3 I would rather be bitten by the pit.

And obviously my point was lost. Then IF your PSI "quotes" are correct then there IS more propensity for a Pit breed to "bite" and NOT let go than a GSD or Rott. Because insurance co's keep track of this very thing whether ANYONE likes it or not and I have had first hand access of this information in my former job capacity for 15 years and the insurance industry is the main leader in helping ban certain breeds. Ending the attack is part of their problem. And yes, damage is part of what the OP was talking about also.
02-05-2007, 07:14 PM
DrKym

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love That Collie

And obviously my point was lost. Then IF your PSI "quotes" are correct then there IS more propensity for a Pit breed to "bite" and NOT let go than a GSD or Rott. Because insurance co's keep track of this very thing whether ANYONE likes it or not and I have had first hand access of this information in my former job capacity for 15 years and the insurance industry is the main leader in helping ban certain breeds. Ending the attack is part of their problem. And yes, damage is part of what the OP was talking about also.

They are not "my" measurements dear sir, they are the property of Animal Planet and several individuals that carried out the research.

As for your erronous but arrogant conclusion about which breed wouldn't let go, they will all hold on sir. I know from personal experience of 20 years training Rotts, that they will hold a bite until they drop from exhaustion or they are released. I also know that the GSDs they are measured against will also.

I think the point that you are trying to make is that pits are known to "latch" on and not let go. Well sir so are JRT's it is one of the traits highly desirable in a terrier. As a side note this thread was not about Pits, it was about Staffodshire terriers, and Yes Virginia there is a difference.

Kym
02-05-2007, 07:20 PM
cali

its not "bloodlust" its prey drive, some dogs have more then others, terriers have a lot of it, they were BRED to grab a hold of other ANIMALS, not people. herding breeds also have a lot of prey drive, they are not known to attack other animals because there are 2 parts to the instinct, there is stalk and kill. the herding breeds were had the "kill" part muted, but that doesnt mean it doesnt crop up here and there. hunting breed simpley have the kill drive controled since the owner is supposed to do the killing lol in pretty much every other breed the stalk and kill instinct is still there, it is up the the breeders to mute it, by BYBs and PMs dont care so there are a lot of dogs out there of many differnt breeds with exactly the same instict as pitties. these insticts apply to other animals, the dogs would have been pretty usless if the stalk and kill instict was bred in for attacking humans.
02-05-2007, 07:40 PM
Love That Collie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow

They are not "my" measurements dear sir, they are the property of Animal Planet and several individuals that carried out the research.

As for your erronous but arrogant conclusion about which breed wouldn't let go, they will all hold on sir. I know from personal experience of 20 years training Rotts, that they will hold a bite until they drop from exhaustion or they are released. I also know that the GSDs they are measured against will also.

I think the point that you are trying to make is that pits are known to "latch" on and not let go. Well sir so are JRT's it is one of the traits highly desirable in a terrier. As a side note this thread was not about Pits, it was about Staffodshire terriers, and Yes Virginia there is a difference.

Firstly, Sir, it's "M'aam". Secondly, I only stated that they were your conclusions because they were in your post. Not that they were YOUR conclusions since you didn't state from where they came.
And yes, that's the point, "Latch on and not let go" as you put it is exactly the point. But, ah, there enlies the problem, "or they are released", study shows (by the insurance industry) they are unstable in that category. The plain truth of the matter is that Staff, Pit, anything you want to call them are seen as virtually the same category and that will not change in anyone here todays lifetime. And JRT's? well, maybe they won't let go but I'd bet that I would survive THAT attack. So yes, Santa, there is a difference.
02-05-2007, 07:46 PM
borzoimom

Sorry people- but the problem here is you can not get a staffy off of an attack.. to the point of being shot to stop them... They have yet to explain why, but its there.- once started even the most trained of the breed - there is no return-
And given the choice- the shepherd has one of the highest psi's but given a choice- if I had to get bit- it would be a shepherd- at least they would stop at the sign of submission- a staffy WILL NOT ..
02-05-2007, 07:48 PM
DrKym

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love That Collie

Firstly, Sir, it's "M'aam". Secondly, I only stated that they were your conclusions because they were in your post. Not that they were YOUR conclusions since you didn't state from where they came.
And yes, that's the point, "Latch on and not let go" as you put it is exactly the point. But, ah, there enlies the problem, "or they are released", study shows (by the insurance industry) they are unstable in that category. The plain truth of the matter is that Staff, Pit, anything you want to call them are seen as virtually the same category and that will not change in anyone here todays lifetime. And JRT's? well, maybe they won't let go but I'd bet that I would survive THAT attack. So yes, Santa, there is a difference.

I apologize Ma'am, for the gender confusion. I am certain you are aware that I am also female so you may drop the sir.

Again you are being obtuse to the point being made, all three dogs in that example are known to "latch" on.

Your insurance references are obscure at best, as I have owned and trained all 3 breeds mentioned, for years. I actually had more issues insuring my Dobermanns. If you have inside information on that I am all ears.
02-05-2007, 07:53 PM
DrKym

Quote:

Originally Posted by borzoimom

Sorry people- but the problem here is you can not get a staffy off of an attack.. to the point of being shot to stop them... They have yet to explain why, but its there.- once started even the most trained of the breed - there is no return-
And given the choice- the shepherd has one of the highest psi's but given a choice- if I had to get bit- it would be a shepherd- at least they would stop at the sign of submission- a staffy WILL NOT ..

Michelle, in all due respect, you are a Terrier group judge, that is a blanket statement and very, very unlike you.

I am assuming based on years of knowing eachother that you are being very very general here. For the sake of keeping this thread informative as opposed to emotional.
02-05-2007, 07:55 PM
wolf_Q

This is turning into another pit bull debate and I think the thread needs to be closed. We've had enough threads like this.
02-05-2007, 08:10 PM
Love That Collie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow

I apologize Ma'am, for the gender confusion. I am certain you are aware that I am also female so you may drop the sir.

Again you are being obtuse to the point being made, all three dogs in that example are known to "latch" on.

Your insurance references are obscure at best, as I have owned and trained all 3 breeds mentioned, for years. I actually had more issues insuring my Dobermanns. If you have inside information on that I am all ears.

You are the one who stated that JRT's "latch on" and I was stating that, that may well be but there's no comparison to a JRT bite and a "Pit" bite so there's nothing obtuse in my thinking about it. Or do you think a JRT bite is the same?

As far as the insurance references, no, not obscure at all, Pit types top the list in more places (i.e. states, counties and cities) than any other ONE type of breed and that is a fact. Your Doberman's insurances are your problem and where you reside and not seen as a MORE major problem across the U.S. as a whole in attack reported cases. I was a bit surprised that Shar-Pei's were also on the insurance industry list, albeit lower on the list. If anybody doesn't think that the insurance industry ISN'T behind breed banning legislation and that they aren't one of the most powerful industries in the nation then those people are sorely mistaken. And if the breeder of these types don't change their breeding habits, owners of "Pit" types might just wake up one day to find them illegal, period, everywhere in the U.S. as they already are in some counties.

FYI, no, I don't believe that I did know conclusively that you are a female.

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