actually it's not funny. please, take a look to the sites of reputable breeders and find out that they also have hunting champions which look as they're suposed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
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actually it's not funny. please, take a look to the sites of reputable breeders and find out that they also have hunting champions which look as they're suposed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
they don't change despite the standard...the vary in lines and breeder's preferences, but in the end, they all need to stick to the breed standard.
If you could please direct me to those sites ... I hardly *ever* see Show Labs that hunt as well. I think that's awesome! I don't like it when the dog is only shown in conformation and comes from conformation lines only. I see that far too often with this breed. I already don't consider Show Labs to be the same breed as Field Labs, because they are so different.Quote:
Originally Posted by TORNER RETRIEVERS
oh I know there are some show dogs that can work, but the work should be the primarly goal, if one wants to breed for a certain look it should be secondary to the work itself. the orgilnal intent of the conformation ring was to judge working dogs on their outward appearence, then some poeple got competive and decided to ignore the work and focas on the look, this is where the split began, then the people who started breeding for the certain look began to dominate in that aspect, and shadowed out the working bred, they atrted to believe that they were supierior, yet its they they deviated from the the real breed.
These are a few labs with retrieving skills and good conformation. (i'll be adding as i'm finding them)Quote:
Originally Posted by .sarah
http://www.dickendall.com/tim.html
http://www.dickendall.com/chuck.html
http://www.dickendall.com/anslo.html
http://www.dickendall.com/drifter.html
http://www.dickendall.com/remmy.html
http://www.dickendall.com/ruffy.html
http://www.dickendall.com/orange.html
http://www.dickendall.com/arnold.html
http://www.belquest.com/aaron.html
http://www.belquest.com/knight.html
http://www.windfalllabs.com/Abbey/index.htm
http://www.windfalllabs.com/stormy/index.htm
http://www.hyspire.com/bandit.html
How many silver Lab breeders do you know well enough to judge the quality of their puppies?Quote:
I have never heard of a Silver Lab coming from a breeding of two normal color Labs by reputable breeders
Well this can go both ways. What I'm trying to get across is that people that are posting on this thread are biased to one opionin. It's not proven that there is Weim so WHY would you assume so? There is NO proof either way.Quote:
Exactly, it's not proven. You shouldn't breed Silver Labs if you can't prove they aren't bred with Weimeraner. There is no proof at the moment. I for one do not like Weimeraners and do not want my Lab to have Weim in it.
That is not what I said. What I am saying is that I do not know of Silver Labs coming from normal colored parents from reputable breeders. This excludes people who breed Silver exclusively and BYBs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CagneyDog
Because they look like they have it in them. I don't think that they should be bred until there is proof that they are purebred Labs. And you just said it yourself, there is no proof either way. If you purchased a Silver Lab from a "reputable" breeder wouldn't you be pissed if proof later came out that they were cross bred with Weims? I would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by CagneyDog
http://www.puppydogweb.com/breeders/...bs_tdehaan.jpg
http://www.silvervalleykennels.com/images/dog2med.jpg
Sure don't look like Weims to me. If it was part Weim why would it's litter mates be chocolate labs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
i'm sorry, but i think you have no idea what a beauty show is.
yes, breeds were made to achieve certain goals such as herding, hunting, retrieveing, etc.
when people stopped hunting for a living these breeds we're drastically reduced, until a bunch of people with a lot of money decided to give life to the breed once again.
without the necessity for hunting dogs, this group of people decided to compete for beauty, creating different lines to "fill the eye" of type judges. this got a little out of hand and then they realized that these dogs still needed the skills which they're bred to have.
so..don't be so sure that skills are the only purpose of a dog. if had it been that way, we wouldn't have any working breed this days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CagneyDog
ABSOLUTELY YES...there would still be chocolate littermates.
the pics you posted are the reason why this people bred weimaraners to labs. because they look alike so much. you need to have a trained eye to note the differences.
compare the two breeds...
this is what happens with two well reproduced breeds. you can tell the difference
but when you have two badly reproduced breeds...it's hard to say
http://www.hundeauslaufgebiet.de/nin...s/nino_019.jpg
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefme...3/T043345A.jpg
now, let alone when they're puppies
http://www.fastdirectory.net/weims/R...20at%20you.jpghttp://www.bbc.co.uk/holiday/images/...py_300x193.jpg
this two breeds combined:
the so-called Silverlab!!!!!
Well could your trained eye please point the differances out to me.Quote:
the pics you posted are the reason why this people bred weimaraners to labs. because they look alike so much. you need to have a trained eye to note the differences
How so? If it's bred with a Weim, wouldn't they all be silver.
They can still produce correct colors. Just because it is not the right color, does not mean it is not part Weim. This is apparent in a lot of mixed breed dogs. A Weim/Vizsla cross could produce both Silver and Red dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CagneyDog
Whether or not they look like Weims is not it. A lot of them do, some don't. My point is, we do not know if they are part Weim or not, so they should not be bred until we can rule that out. And where did you get those pictures? Does that person show their dogs? Health test? Where did the dogs come from? A reputable breeder, or a puppy mill? You can't just pull images off of google and say that they're purebreds because their mom looks like it. I know of a few dogs who look purebred when they are mixed breeds. The Weim in her could be far enough back that they still produce Silver but look more like Labs.
No, of course not.Quote:
Originally Posted by CagneyDog
A quote from the website where you (CagneyDog) got the picture of mom and pups:
They do not know this dog's lineage. He should have never be bred. So you can rule this breeder out as responsible.Quote:
They started breeding labs after Marcie rescued their now stud dog Buddy from someone that had neglected him and tied him up on a short rope in a cement stall in a cow barn. He was 2 years old, untrained, not housebroke and on his way to the animal shelter when Marcie found him on this farm. To make a long story short, Buddy has come a long way and he and Marcie are practically inseparable.
This is so frickin OT, hehe, but I really really agree with you, Sarah! My friend has an amazing field-bred chocolate Lab named Tango, and I see incredible difference between her and just about every other Lab I see (which are either show-bred or BYB-bred). She's about half the size of my other friends championed show Lab (Im sorry - he looks unnaturally obese to me.) and her temperament is much, much different. Gonzo really despises 99% of the Labs he meets, because they are just so goofy and aloof, but he loves Tango, because she's just incredibly different and is actually very alert and less all over the place. I would personally never be able to handle a show or BYB-bred Lab, because I really value attentiveness and sensitivity in a dog (my BC spoils meh) but I'd love to have a Lab with Tango's personality. Several people I know have Labs who are sweet dogs, but just do not listen to a word their owners say. Tango actually has an Obedience title, too, which is not common with show-types as far as I've seen, and she qualified in every trial she's been in.
mehhhh, anyway... Cagney, I really don't see any "proof" in those pics. Honestly, it does not matter to me if they're purebreds or not. They aren't recognized. It's certaintly possible for a chocolate Lab bred to a Weim to produce "silver Labs" and "choco Labs". I think that if this "dilution" was actually that common in the breed, it WOULD at least be recognized by now. And, dilution of chocolate does not produce silver, it produces fawn or isabella, which is technically light chocolate. Dilution of black produces "blue". The AKC is not against accepting diluted colors, which is why fawn and blue Dobermans are accepted and shown. To me, the proof isn't there so I'm going to have to say it's not legit. Especially since all of the kennel links posted are to kennels that exclusively breed for silver coloring, which is a red flag.
Mmmmk, I'm done with this thread.
My BYB Lab (Nova) has that temperment to a tee. Luka is pretty close, but is a little stubborn (though we are working on this). That is what a field Lab's temperment is supposed to be like. It's why I love them so much! I will get a well-bred Field Lab one day, but it will be when I live on my own and can run more trials with them. My dogs are field-bred as far as I know, judging by looks, drive (they loooove hunting), and temperment. But at the same time they don't really know what they're missing, and I can't fit frequent field trials into my life while in school, so they are fine for now :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bckrazy
And I agree with what you just said, too! ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CagneyDog
i just did in page 6.
it wouldn't all be silver...in fact, you could get even a black one.
I would not support breeding a chihuahua and a great dane or other designer breeds. I am speaking of a coat colour. Breeding other markings that the breed comes in is not creating a new breed nor changing anything about the build or health of the dog. It doesn't change the type or the working ability. The ONLY thing that changes is the coat colour. It is unnatural for labradors to come in yellow, chocolate, and black. It is line breeding done by show breeders. It is natural for labradors to come in other colours. So why not line breed a b&t or a brindle or a dilute colour? The only logical reason to not accept these dogs is because of the colour, because color is the ONLY difference in existence. You can't logically bring in any other arguements. Anything other arguement is irrational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRescue452
WELL, THAT'S A POOR WAY TO END A DISCUSSION. HAVE YOU EVER STUDIED GENETICS?
i bet you haven't, as well as you haven't studied or devoted your life to the lab breed.
please, take a genetics book and learn about coat coloration. by the way, it is not naturall for labs to come in a variety of colors, otherwise this colors would be recognizad, as they are for the chihuahua or amstaff.
you're being kinda redundant. it is pretty obvious that color is the issue here, that's what silver lab's are about: a color trait introduced by a cross with another breed.
and, too bad for you, those dog's will never be recognized as purebreds by professional breeders around the world, not by the akc, not by the FCI, etc. do you really think you're smarter than all of the reputable breeders in the world? or that you're right and all those people are wrong? have you ever been to a lab specialty? have you ever bred silver labs from purebred chocolate labs to say they really exist? do you know why is it that they only exist in america?
give me a break!
don't be too clever about what you say you know.
You're being defensive and making yourself sound important, but did you bring any relevent evidence in with that last post? Stick to the subject.
Torner Retrievers are those your dogs in the photos of "Correct Labradors"?
which photos are you refering to?Quote:
Originally Posted by cloverfdx
if you're talking about the ones with the weimaraners, no...those are not my dogs. those are to show how breeder's and the AKC parent club of the breed think the ideal lab should be.
my dogs appear at the 2nd or 3rd page i believe, as attachments
i'm not being defensive. it's a lot different if you feel attacked with me asking you about your knowledge on genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by IRescue452
and what's your response? "STICK TO THE SUBJECT".
COME ON!!! LOL. if you knew anything at all about the matter, as you pretend us to believe, you'd have come with a better reply. LOL
sadly for you, i did bring a correction to your arguement:
the breed standard for the labrador retriever does not recognize a variety of colors (as you imply by saying these come naturally to labs), because labradors have never come in a variety of colors. Black an tan, brindle coloration, silver, blue, etc. are considered to be disqualification mismarks. it has been this way since the beginning of the breed, unlike what silver lab breeders intend to make us believe.
for a color to be natural, it would have to appear at least in the 25% of the general population.
OK EVERYONE. JUST TO LET YOU KNOW (SINCE A LOT OF YOU ASK ME WHY BREEDERS AND MYSELF DON'T BELIEVE IN SILVER COLORATION). HERE'S THE INFORMATION ABOUT DILUTED COLORS:
Blue is actually diluted Black, Lilac is actually diluted Chocolate, and Fawn is
actually diluted Cinnamon.
SILVER IS NOT DILUTED CHOCOLATE. Silver is its own gene, as found in weimaraners.
as far as health...blue coloration (there are people selling blue and silver "labs") has a tendency to produce unique auto immune or coat problems.
here's a picture of coloration in shar peis (i couldn't find any other breed with black, blue, chocolate an lilac together in a single photo).
from left to right: black, blue (diluted black), lilac (diluted chocolate), chocolate.
note the difference in coloration between the lilac (above) and the silver (below). besides, note that the black puppy (below) has different type (has a wider head and shorter muzzle than the "silver" and the blue ones).
Here are other photos to compare
LILAC SHR PEI
BLUE SHAR PEI
SILVER LAB
(still don't see weimaraner in it?)
for a color to be natural, it would have to appear at least in the 25% of the general population.
A colour can't appear that often when only 3 colours are line bred by show breeders. If you put all colours of labs together and let them breed without human interference for enough time to overcome many years of line breeding you'd come across a pertenent palette of natural colouring. Of course this is never going to happen, nor should it. I'm not saying that these colors will be 25% of the population, I'm just saying they would come along and still be purebred and still be labradors.
well if we let every breed to reproduce without control and without following the breed standard....we wouldn't have any breed at all!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by IRescue452
they certainly wouldn't still be labradors. a brindle, B&T, silver, blue, etc.. would be a dog which's parents are labradors. for a dog to be considered as a lab, it has to fit to the breed standard. i don't see why this is so hard to understand.
it seems like you don't understand the relation breeder-standard. you keep saying that breeders are the ones that don't like or don't accept this or that color. it's not the breeders. it's the breed standard. i've seen breeders go through hell because they had their hopes up for that planned litter in which there's a B&T or a brindle, which by the way, turns out to be show quality except for the color. so they have to neuter it and give it to a good home. i've seen them let out a tear or two during this events. it's heart breaking, but that's not the point. the point is that some people, a 100 yeras ago (moreless) created a breed to perform and look one specific way. they parent club has published a specific standard and it has to be followed, to preserve the type, soundness and skills of the labrador.
Torner, you say silvers are more prone to certain auto-immune disorders... if true, that would make me more inclined to believe that at least a portion of silver labs are purebred genetic flukes. It seems like a crossbreed wouldn't be consistantly developing the same genetic defect, but maybe that's just me.
Also, if a color occurs in less than 25% of the population, it is unnatural?! Where the heck do you get that from, and how do you back it up? By that argument, all red-headed humans are fake and unnatural. I guess they must be crossed with orangutans or something :rolleyes:. Since none of us can prove they're not, I call for the sterilization of all red-heads!
You aren't an expert, so just ask me if I need to point out the differences and similarities:
http://www.kevinyoungphotography.com...ng,%201998.jpghttp://www.posters.ws/images/381164/alyson_hannigan.jpg
"No good dog is a bad color" -- Max von Stephanitz
The Bible, the Qu'ran, the Vedas, the Torah, the Breed Standard... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TORNER RETRIEVERS
Maybe it is because IRescue and Cagney see a dog first, and some arbitrary ruler of worth based on conformation to a standard in order to promote one's kennel/line/business second? Just a guess.
Dogs are not humans, don't treat them like one.
just what i was going to say, so it might not be the desirable color for show and breeding purposes but it doesnt make them less lab.
as if i get a husky with floppy ears or a blue eyed samoyed or a shepherd born with no tail, that doesnt make them less of their breed, just not suitable for breeding and/or showing, but still they are purebreds, even if some traits are genetic issues, as if people have two toned skin (i really dont know the correct name) that doesnt make them less human......
Sorry, I had to run to class. I couldn't finish. Anyway what I'm getting from all of this is that if white were the only shown color of human, then we wouldn't consider a black person human? They'd be worthless. Such as a lab that isn't the three show colours is a worthless creature that somehow isn't considered a labrador.
Husky mom: you are getting to extremes. I mean if a lab was born with no tail then by all means I'd say to neuter it. The colouring doesn't change the structure of the dog. One might not want to breed your husky or shepherd example, but I see nothing wrong with breeding white shepherds.
Suki: I know dogs aren't humans, they are objects we use to our working advantage. I don't quite get the illustration you were talking about either. I just don't get why can't we breed a silver labrador if thats what we want to use, for show or work. In fact I don't get kennel clubs at all. According to the AKC, there are many breeds that don't exist. The Hanoverian hound for one, does indeed exist, but according to AKC breeders there is no such dog. And a labrador that's silver in colour is not a dog. Strange lot of people they are indeed.
I am technically a mutt, but I'm also a human! Same way horses who are crossbred regularly compete, they are accepted in their sport, other than conformation. If you breed a dog for show and you get a silver, I say spay it and give it a good home. With all the overpopulation of dogs though, I don't believe in breeding dogs just for pets. If you wanted a pet only you could go to the shelter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suki Wingy
That is my view and I am done with this thread.
why. WHO says that they must fit the breed stardard? you? the people who make their living with beauty contests? why? just cuz they say so? and why should I listen to them or you? why are only you guys correct and the people with dogs that can actually DO the work wrong? please enlighten me as to why my whippet built, flop eared, extra fine boned border collie cant herd? (and she can by the way, she was dropped on sheep after 5 years of city living and right off the bat was herding better then the expeirenced dogs) and please explain how conformation has imporoved the bearded collie, and wehn people see then bouncing and barking at sheep the response is "oh thats how they are supposed to herd" thats odd because actually beardies were originally more like a wire coated BC and worked like BCs, in fact the 2 breeds used to be freely interbred.Quote:
it has to fit to the breed standard. i don't see why this is so hard to understand.
dont get me wrong i just gave examples that dont make a breed less breed, not that they should be bred, of course not, spay/neuter, but with color as in shepherds it took a while to get them accepted, they where present but not suitable for show and maybe silver labs will get their place as they had before as a variation of "chocolates", and as cali mentioned beauty contest..... in humans it doesnt mean we "need" to look like them, it just a "standard" for "beauty" that some people made and try to keep that way, that doesnt mean other people who are different are not pretty or human......
He made an assertion about recessive genetics and 'nature'. I simply extended it. That is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suki Wingy
If silver labradors were proven to be purebred would you breed them? You are acting the same way breeders did when chocolate labradors were first bred. :rolleyes:
well i dont see the problem. if they were bred for hunting what does there color matter?? i think they are too strict on colors for alot of breeds.
my friends mom told my my cocker puppy coulden't be shown because he has white markings on his black back. who cares!!
i didn't say silvers are propense to develop this diseases. i said BLUE colored dogs are. of course they wouldn't develop deseases due to the variety of genetic code from different breeds crosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allecto
that kind of sarcasm and comparissons are just the last resource for people who don't have anything to say. DOGS ARE NOT EQUAL TO HUMAS. they can be part of the family and loved pets, but not humas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allecto
dog population and human population are different. i'm not talking about labs as a species, but as breed. it's stupid to say that red headed humans are not humans!!!!
i'll correct your example: if both your parents, and your grand parents, and 20 generations before you are white skined, and have blonde hair, wouldn't it be unnatural to your family line if you were borned black?????
by your response, i do think you could be part orangutan.
oh..and you are? lol. at least i'm geeting my masters degree on coat color genetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allecto
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRescue452
no one is saying they're worthless. don't get so passionated about it.
please, READ and UNDERSTAND. your example of the hanoverian hound is silly. the AKC doesn't say that is not a breed, it just doesn't recognize it.
labradoodles is a new trend breed as well....just don't recognized by experts and organisms around the world.
you really should stop blaming all to breeders, it's not good for you. see the bigger picture! there are parent clubs to the breed who dictate what a lab should look like.