Do you approve?

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Originally posted by Rottieluver45
Wow! I`ve never had such a popular thread!!

Richard. Richard, Richard, Richard! You made me look at this in a completely different way! Thanks!! :D You`re right with out god there would be absolutley NO argument, at all! People say it`s a sin.

Is it a sin when you marry the one you love. That`s all it is. Just with the same sex. It`s not a sin!!! What`s so sinful? That`s the only part I`m not understanding now.

I respect the opinions of others but I just don`t understand them.

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But my friend, if there were no God, there would be no humans either, because there would have been no creator, so no humans, no animals, no world, no nothing. Now wouldn't that be a peaceful world? ;) It wouldn't be a world at all. :p He he he

oops I 0think I was missunderstood.

I meant if there was no -god- issue. The issue with god being "disappointed"

Ya know what I`m talking about? :D

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He wasn't saved. If you're not saved God can't answer you. Going to church for 25 years doesn't get you into heaven. The only way into heaven is through Jesus.

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Oh my, you're a piece of work, aren't you?

You have never met this person, never had a conversation with him ... how do you propose to know if he was "saved" or not? Did God tell you this? No one knows this information but God and this person ... I highly doubt you are privy to God's private ledger.

I did not say he "went to church" for 25 years. I am well aware of the fact that "going to church for 25 years doesn't get you into heaven" ... that's quite a no-brainer. I said he was a devout Christian and that he prayed every day for 25 years. BIG difference in that, and just showing up for church once a week.

You have just exhibited the infamous, right-wing, fundamental Christian fallacy ... "I know it all about everyone all the time, and I have the right to tell everyone what they think and how they feel and why they do things. Hallelujah. Amen."

And this ... "If you're not saved God can't answer you." Really? Interesting. Says who? Again ... if you are going to state "facts", you'd better be ready to back them up. Or maybe we read from two different Bibles? My God is a forgiving, kind, loving God. I'm not sure we are worshipping the same one.

Doesn't it all come down to just a few simple things.

It was Bush that said no gay's shall marry, right? Now does Bush have the right to judge peoples belifes or should that be left to God? I say leave it in Gods hands, when the time comes. If you belive different, so be it.

Maybe being gay in a sin, I can't say that for sure but what I can say is that everyone has the right to love another and no one should tell them they are wrong for loving another.

How much different is it then when I married a man 18 years younger then me, I was told that it was sick and wrong. Why, because they said so? Who where they to judge my love? So I ask who are we to judge the love that gay's have? Not me or you or even Bush. Give everyone the same rights, isn't that what the United States, foundation was based on?

We each have our own views on a lot of things in life, we should be big enough to accept that in each other. Just as some here said, their mind won't be changed then respect that others wont be changed also. Encluding the Gays.

Let God sort it out and let us just accept EVERY human being for what and who they are. Just picture what a better place this would be if we did.

what a great thread.

My 'god' is a god of understanding and love....

he is a god of trees, air, sunrises, smiles on a baby's face.............
my god is laughter, problems, results and clouds, rain and breathing..

My god is taxes, bills, a problem, heartache and sorrow.
He is a god of tears and my pets......
My god is stars, galaxies and things I do not understand.

My god is hope, despair and my voice.

I am my god and you are gods to me.

My god is belief and my accepting your god.

In the past 'gods' were used as a crusade, an inquisition and the trials of people thought to be evil.

My god is looking at you, seeing you are the same, but different, and my god tells me that you are right for your beliefs.

My god tells me that you are right.........

My god is everything yours is, except..................

My god loves you no matter what.


I don't know who my god is, he doesn't have a name or a book written about him............

He is a god of tolerance and a god of acceptance.

And sometimes I wonder why he has taken me under his hand.

My god is my breathe, my heart beat and my god is the ability to see good in everything around me.


Who is your god?

My god is the God of the Bible, God of Abraham, Joseph, Moses & Jesus. He is understanding and loving. He made me imperfect. He doesn’t hate me if I sin, because he created me a sinner. If I wasn’t a sinner, I’d be perfect and only God can be perfect. Therefore, I am a sinner. I need to repent these sins & try not to commit them again, but it will happen because I’m a sinner. Confusing, but very simple. He doesn’t hate me for who I am. This is my God. Yours may be different.

But, my God doesn’t love me any less for my sins that it commit. He loves me simply because I’m his child. It’s an unconditional love and though I may disappoint him a lot with my sins, he’s still my Father. He doesn’t hate anyone.

Now, I personally don’t care if someone sins, I still love them just like God loves me. I don’t always agree with them, but I still don’t hate them. There are some sins IMO that are greater than others. To me lying is to me a much lesser sin than child molestation and murder. I can only believe that God feels the same way.

I don’t know (or for that matter, really care) if homosexuality is a sin. I know many, many gay people and quite a few of them are better people than a lot of ‘Christians’ that I know. I also know many good Christians and some bad gays. There are good and bad people in any walk of life. Your job is as a fellow human being is to love them and try to respect them. Leave the rest to God if you believe in Him.

I think if there’s going to be a separation of church and state, then it must be totally separate. You can’t pick and choose to use the church at your whim.

Our Fathers created this country for freedom. One reason was that their religion had been persecuted by the Queen of England. They came here to create a place where everyone could practice their religion freely. That obviously doesn’t mean that Christian beliefs belong anywhere in the Government anymore than Pagan beliefs or Jewish beliefs. Yes, the country was originally based on a certain religious groups’ set of beliefs, but that group wanted religious freedom for all. I think they would be rolling over if they realized that we were using their Constitution in the way we’re trying to use it these days.

Religious freedom means that our country is not based on the laws of one religion’s beliefs and that we can believe anything we choose to believe. We must uphold our freedoms or we will become the country our forefathers left behind. :(

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Originally posted by micki76
Religious freedom means that our country is not based on the laws of one religion’s beliefs and that we can believe anything we choose to believe. We must uphold our freedoms or we will become the country our forefathers left behind. :(

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^^^what she said^^^

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Originally posted by micki76
My god is the God of the Bible, God of Abraham, Joseph, Moses & Jesus. He is understanding and loving. He made me imperfect. He doesn’t hate me if I sin, because he created me a sinner. If I wasn’t a sinner, I’d be perfect and only God can be perfect. Therefore, I am a sinner. I need to repent these sins & try not to commit them again, but it will happen because I’m a sinner. Confusing, but very simple. He doesn’t hate me for who I am. This is my God. Yours may be different.

But, my God doesn’t love me any less for my sins that it commit. He loves me simply because I’m his child. It’s an unconditional love and though I may disappoint him a lot with my sins, he’s still my Father. He doesn’t hate anyone.

Now, I personally don’t care if someone sins, I still love them just like God loves me. I don’t always agree with them, but I still don’t hate them. There are some sins IMO that are greater than others. To me lying is to me a much lesser sin than child molestation and murder. I can only believe that God feels the same way.

I don’t know (or for that matter, really care) if homosexuality is a sin. I know many, many gay people and quite a few of them are better people than a lot of ‘Christians’ that I know. I also know many good Christians and some bad gays. There are good and bad people in any walk of life. Your job is as a fellow human being is to love them and try to respect them. Leave the rest to God if you believe in Him.

I think if there’s going to be a separation of church and state, then it must be totally separate. You can’t pick and choose to use the church at your whim.

Our Fathers created this country for freedom. One reason was that their religion had been persecuted by the Queen of England. They came here to create a place where everyone could practice their religion freely. That obviously doesn’t mean that Christian beliefs belong anywhere in the Government anymore than Pagan beliefs or Jewish beliefs. Yes, the country was originally based on a certain religious groups’ set of beliefs, but that group wanted religious freedom for all. I think they would be rolling over if they realized that we were using their Constitution in the way we’re trying to use it these days.

Religious freedom means that our country is not based on the laws of one religion’s beliefs and that we can believe anything we choose to believe. We must uphold our freedoms or we will become the country our forefathers left behind. :(

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Agreed. Very well said Micki.

"An' ye harm none, do what ye will"

...Thought I'd throw out a quote from MY religion because I'm starting to get a bit uncomfortable with this thread.

Going on, right above my head, my god is having a grand old time.

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/showcase/text.shtml


So why are we, down here, worried about who is married to who?

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Originally posted by WolfChan
"An' ye harm none, do what ye will"

...Thought I'd throw out a quote from MY religion because I'm starting to get a bit uncomfortable with this thread.

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Feel free to. :) That's what the USA is about after all.

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Originally posted by WolfChan

...Thought I'd throw out a quote from MY religion because I'm starting to get a bit uncomfortable with this thread.

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A question???

why are you uncomfortable?

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Or maybe we read from two different Bibles?

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My Bible says in Leviticus that it is abomination for a man to lie with another man. It is abomination for a man to lie with his sister. It is abomination for a man to lie with an animal, etc.

Romans 1:25-27:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

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You have never met this person, never had a conversation with him ... how do you propose to know if he was "saved" or not? Did God tell you this? No one knows this information but God and this person ... I highly doubt you are privy to God's private ledger.

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No, God didn't tell me that. Only God knows if he is saved, and your friend should know. I don't know and neither do you. What I do know is that if he were saved then God would give him the streingth to over come his desires towards men.

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You have just exhibited the infamous, right-wing, fundamental Christian fallacy ... "I know it all about everyone all the time, and I have the right to tell everyone what they think and how they feel and why they do things. Hallelujah. Amen."

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I never calmed to know it all. I don't know it all. If there is something I need to know then I go to God and my Bible, and I get the answer.

When did one of my inlaws join the forum? :confused: :confused: :p

The bible also says a lot of things that society doesn't "obey" anymore. I for one do not submit to my husband. I am allowed to due many things that according to the bible, women shouldn't do. Women are church leaders now. We can speak in church now.

Welcome to the 21st century.

I'm pasting one of my posts in another thread.

Alright, if we want to get all biblical and bible thumping, then let's take of the gloves.

If we are going to go so far as to take what the bible says as literal, as you seem to want to do kblix, then let's go ahead and amend the Constitution based on it.

The US Constitutional Marriage Amendment.....
A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines, in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe, and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town, it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him (even ifhe had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)

This is clearly inscribed on the Jefferson Memorial.

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

WolfChan, a couple questions-
I have yet to hear from you a good argument for gay marriage. Because they love each other? That's like saying you should marry your pet if you love them, or maybe a car or something. Huh?

You keep talking about how overpopulated the world is. Do you have any evidence to back this up? The world's population can fit into Texas. Is there enough food in the world? There IS enough food in the world, but it's obviously not distributed well enough.

And then anyone who doesn't have kids should be rewarded? Why? Just because you hate kids? Most people love the joy of having kids! Obviously you don't. You've stated it with your many proabortion anti population posts.

And why do people always have to have an opinion that is the same as yours and that makes sense to you? You're right, not everyone has the same religion and I agree that it isn't a strong argument for everyone. But for a lot of people it is, because it says in almost every religion that gay marriage is wrong.

I think gay people are among the nicest on the planet, and they are wonderful people. I just don't think gay marriage should be legalized!

2kitties, you're not using a lot of those verses in the correct context, and you are leaving out a lot of the verse. You've done it several times.

You're welcome to correct me Kevin, if you'd like, by being specific.

But I think you are missing the point entirely. My point is sattire to illustrate that the bible has been translated hundreds of times and is used intirely in interpretation. No two Christian denominations read the Bible identically. If they did, then there would be no need for different denominations. So to base laws of our "Free" nation upon a Book which nobody can agree on in the first place is a ludacris idea.

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Originally posted by kevinrats
Because they love each other? That's like saying you should marry your pet if you love them, or maybe a car or something. Huh?

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Well, Kevin, I'll tell you this. If any person can find a dog or a car which a court of law finds legally capable of making decisions, and when that dog or car can make it through a civil marriage ceremony and sign the marriage license... then sure. marry them.

Okay 2kitties here you go: (out of NIV) I'll do these one at a time cuz their big.

Genesis 29:17-28
Genesis 29
17 Leah had weak [1] eyes, but Rachel was lovely in form, and beautiful. 18 Jacob was in love with Rachel and said, "I'll work for you seven years in return for your younger daughter Rachel."
19 Laban said, "It's better that I give her to you than to some other man. Stay here with me." 20 So Jacob served seven years to get Rachel, but they seemed like only a few days to him because of his love for her.
21 Then Jacob said to Laban, "Give me my wife. My time is completed, and I want to lie with her."
22 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. 23 But when evening came, he took his daughter Leah and gave her to Jacob, and Jacob lay with her. 24 And Laban gave his servant girl Zilpah to his daughter as her maidservant.
25 When morning came, there was Leah! So Jacob said to Laban, "What is this you have done to me? I served you for Rachel, didn't I? Why have you deceived me?"
26 Laban replied, "It is not our custom here to give the younger daughter in marriage before the older one. 27 Finish this daughter's bridal week; then we will give you the younger one also, in return for another seven years of work."
28 And Jacob did so. He finished the week with Leah, and then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife.

I see where you are trying to come from, but Rachel's Dad tricked Jacob, because Jacob worked 7 years to marry Rachel, but Dad gave him Leah instead, so he had to work for awhile longer to marry Rachel. It was Dad that had an uh-oh. It doesn't permit polygamy.



2 Samuel 3:2-5
2 Samuel 3
2 Sons were born to David in Hebron:
His firstborn was Amnon the son of Ahinoam of Jezreel;
3 his second, Kileab the son of Abigail the widow of Nabal of Carmel;
the third, Absalom the son of Maacah daughter of Talmai king of Geshur;
4 the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith;
the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital;
5 and the sixth, Ithream the son of David's wife Eglah.
These were born to David in Hebron.

The next couple I'll post in a few seconds...

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Originally posted by 2kitties
Well, Kevin, I'll tell you this. If any person can find a dog or a car which a court of law finds legally capable of making decisions, and when that dog or car can make it through a civil marriage ceremony and sign the marriage license... then sure. marry them.

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Exactly.

A dog or a car cannot say "I do." Although i'm sure a dog knows love i'm pretty sure a dog, or a car, do not know the true mean of a marriage. A dog can't speak for itself, therefore we'd never be able to know if the dog actually wanted to be in such a relationship. Besides that, a car has no emotional feelings.


There's far more things Bush should worry about, other than two people of the same sex in love, LIKE making sure food is availible for people don't starve like they do.



Now... what does Wolfchan's opinion on children have ANYTHING to do with this subject? :confused:

All I will say is that it is a pity that closed minds don't come with closed mouths.

Again, Kevin, in your arrogance, you completely miss the point.
You and I just interpreted teh same scripture in two completely different ways. THAT ITSELF is the point. In my mind, you're interpretation is entirely wrong.

You see, you can't base the laws of a FREE nation upon a book so open to interpretation. But keep posting until you are blue in the face--- please--- it just makes you look more arrogant.

2 Samuel 5
13 After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.

This is where David slipped up. But then later, because of this, disaster struck his family, people were raped and murdered. So yes, he took concubines but there were serious consequences.

1 Kings 11
3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.

Ahh, yes. But in 1 Kings 11:4, his wives all went away and his heart was not right with the Lord because of it.


So far, you have been quoting overall themes in the Bible. But the Bible is really a story of many people, and many of who slipped up and sinned a lot. A few more in a sec...

Let me interject for a sec.

WolfChan's opinion comes in because she said that there is no good argument against gay marriage. Maybe so. But she or anybody else isn't giving a good argument for it either.

It makes me look arrogant? You kept quoting them too. You started it too. If it offends you to unbelievable ends, I will stop posting.

Once again, conflicting opinions piss everyone off. This is ridiculous.

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Originally posted by kevinrats

3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.

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hold on a second.......This came out of the bible?
Seems kind of odd that this guy can run around with 1000 different women........


I am led astray one woman at a time.....

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Originally posted by kevinrats
Let me interject for a sec.

WolfChan's opinion comes in because she said that there is no good argument against gay marriage. Maybe so. But she or anybody else isn't giving a good argument for it either.

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That seems pretty heartless to me that you say that.
It's love we're talking about. Two people's emotions and feelings for eachother, yet they're looked upon badly. These two people can't own a piece of paper, can't have that word 'married' in their lives, just because some people frown upon it.


If that's not a 'good argument', please, please tell me what is.

Well I don't know about anyone else, but as soon as I start seeing quoted passages from the bible in relation to allowing or not allowing personal freedoms, I just lose interest in what the person has to say and dismiss it as irrelevant.

Then again, I am not a religious person at all, so for anyone who might be offended by my lack of interest in scripture; oh well - sorry to disappoint.

I fail to see what relevance the bible has to anyone's personal liberty and civil rights. Just my $0.02.

Hey, let's not forget that guy from a Jerry Springer episode that wanted to marry his horse. I don't think it ever aired.

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Originally posted by Maresche
All I will say is that it is a pity that closed minds don't come with closed mouths.

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Hehe, I'm going to have to remember that one!

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Originally posted by kevinrats


Once again, conflicting opinions piss everyone off. This is ridiculous.

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Temper, temper.......

It seems like we sail along with a pretty decent discussion for a while then we hit a pot hole.


Micki answered me with her version of who her god is. She did it eloquently and gave me the chance to see what her beliefs are.

I 'used' to be a catholic until I began to question some of the biblical accounts.....multiplying fish and loaves, Lazarus and the three wise men in a Honda (ACCORD) left me looking at the bible with a very inquisitive eye....


A few tips on arguing a sensitive issue like gay marriage...

1) Remember that religion is a personal thing, that and the fact that a Muslim, JW, Baptist may not have read or even know what is in a Bible.

2) Argue common sense first. Leave out your personal bent.
You'll get farther than the 'I throw my hands up' stage.

3) Listen to the other side and digest the words and thought.
ILR hit the nail on the head. Quoted bible verses have a detrimental effect on lucidity. Look around during a church sermon......If glazed eyes were donuts, Krispy Kreme would be out of business.

4) You do not have to accept a point of view. But you can listen to
it and know that the person that stands behind it, believes it.
It doesn't make them wrong, it doesn't make them right...

It makes them, just like you, a person with an opinion....

and you know....the world will keep spinning.;)

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Originally posted by Kfamr
That seems pretty heartless to me that you say that.
It's love we're talking about. Two people's emotions and feelings for eachother, yet they're looked upon badly. These two people can't own a piece of paper, can't have that word 'married' in their lives, just because some people frown upon it.


If that's not a 'good argument', please, please tell me what is.

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There's nothing wrong with *loving* a person of the same sex. I *love* many women myself. What we are talking about is when it is sexual. Being gay is not loving a person of the same sex. That is something we *all* do. Being gay, is committing sexual acts with a person of the same sex, and THAT is what we are against.

There is a difference between love, and love with sexual intentions. Big difference.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
There's nothing wrong with *loving* a person of the same sex. I *love* many women myself. What we are talking about is when it is sexual. Being gay is not loving a person of the same sex. That is something we *all* do. Being gay, is committing sexual acts with a person of the same sex, and THAT is what we are against.

There is a difference between love, and love with sexual intentions. Big difference.

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Out of curiosity.....

What or how would you deal with a brother or sister who confided in you, that they were gay?

How would your view of them change?

You cannot pick the person who you would like to fall in love with. No one can force love.

In high school, there was a smart, nice, sweet guy who asked me out. He really would have been the perfect boyfriend. But I turned him down for a 'bad boy'. On paper, it was a black and white decision - I should have gone for the nice guy. But my heart would not listen to my head and I dated the other one.

It is no different for a gay person. In their head, they know that it would be easier to love someone of the opposite sex. They wouldn't have to face being an outcast because of who they love. But their heart tells them differently, and they can't help that.

No one can choose who they love. It doesn't work that way. And asking someone to supress their feelings is just wrong.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
There's nothing wrong with *loving* a person of the same sex. I *love* many women myself. What we are talking about is when it is sexual. Being gay is not loving a person of the same sex. That is something we *all* do. Being gay, is committing sexual acts with a person of the same sex, and THAT is what we are against.

There is a difference between love, and love with sexual intentions. Big difference.

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It's NOT JUST sexual. Someone doesn't fall in love with another just for sexual reasons. LOVE is not just sexual.

Ok, so many hetersexual couples get married, and have love with sexual intentions. It's a natural feeling, whether it's for the opposite sex or same sex.

And since when is someone's sexual acts anyone else's business, anyways?

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Originally posted by Kfamr
And since when is someone's sexual acts anyone else's business, anyways?

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Kfamr - I couldn't have said it better myself. It shouldn't be anyone else's business but the couple themselves. Why people insist on making other people's sex lives their personal business is beyond me...

I've never understood it and I never will.

Arguments for gay marriage...

Marriage (even if it was called something else) has been around LONG before Christianity or any of its subsets.

A dying person deserves to have their best beloved by their bedside.

Someone who devotes their life to loving and caring for another person should have more say than some distant relative.

There is supposed to be a SEPARATION of church and state, which in theory would keep people from imposing their beliefs on others.

If one partner is arrested, the other can be compelled to testify against them or provide evidence against them, which legally married couples are not forced to do.

In many cases, even carefully drawn wills and durable powers of attorney have proven to not be enough if a family wishes to challenge a will, overturn a custody decision, or exclude them from a funeral or deny them the right to visit a partner's grave. As survivors, the family can even sieze a real estate property that they may have been buying together for years, quickly sell it at a huge loss and stick them with the remaining debt on a property they no longer own.


http://www.bidstrup.com/marriage.htm <~very informative


Oh, and Kevin...the question what what my opinion ON CHILDREN has to do with this subject. The answer is.... *drumroll*....Absolutely nothing! Once again, the discussion was doing well until you showed up.

Oh, and I noted that you still didn't come up with any functional arguments against. :P

"None of us can choose where we will love"

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There is a difference between love, and love with sexual intentions. Big difference.

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I guess I see it differently. I think there is a difference between love and being "in love". Being "in love" doesn't necessarily mean lust or sex. When people get married it's not just about having sex with that person, it's about being in love with the person.