Opinions on this story???

Liz, no I have no idea what caused this dog to do what it did. I feel that the smell of the food on the child's fingers is probably what started to put this whole scene into action. I was simply addressing something that someone had said regarding the fact that this story will just add fuel to the fire regarding pits getting a bad rap. My comments about breeding were to explain why I think pits (and others) are getting a bad rap these days. We often hear people say that "it's bad owners, not bad dogs" and that is very true. In the case of these dogs in particular I think there is a lot of poor breeding going on for the purposes I mentioned and we have a situation now where they have gotten such a bad rap from this that they are the breed we most often see in shelters because of the fear factor in adopting one from just these types of stories.

Pam,

I do see what you mean & I agree. A whole lot of different
things happened & with a sad result for the child & the pup.
I do know that a 5-6 week old pup should not be left alone
overnight with any child, in bed or not. There are some people
who consider a puppy a" toy" & just hand it over to any child to
handle just like any another" toy". The adults in this picture did
not act responsibly toward the dog or the children involved. I
believe another child brought the puppy into the bed to sleep
overnight with them.(from the account that I read).

Isn't the whole concept of crate training rather new? I never did it with any of my dogs, and they were all well-behaved animals.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Soledad
Isn't the whole concept of crate training rather new? I never did it with any of my dogs, and they were all well-behaved animals.

---

I've crated for 13 years and know people who crated for about 20 years now.

Well, I got my first dog when I was seven. That was twenty two years ago. I don't think this was mainstream until I well after I had my pups. Somehow, someway, people managed to train their pets before all of this.

Quote:

---

Well, I got my first dog when I was seven. That was twenty two years ago. I don't think this was mainstream until I well after I had my pups. Somehow, someway, people managed to train their pets before all of this.

---

I agree, I don't recall ever hearing about crate training with much force until fairly recently. And I do think it is perfectly possible to train a dog well without a crate. Every dog? No. But most dogs? Certainly. Crates are a useful tool, but not the end-all, be-all solution to every canine problem. And dog owners who don't have to crate their dogs and choose not to are not evil and negligent.

Quote:

---

But 4 fingers? And the kid just got up and walked around the next morning? Come on!!! The puppy would have chewed through arteries. The kid would have lost a LOT of blood. Don't you think the kid would have at least lost consciousness from blood loss? The entire bed would have been covered with blood - you'd think that he would have gotten cold from the wet bed long before morning, assuming he was conscious.

---

I agree with this. My brother cut the very tip of one of fingers off with a saw once, and the amount of blood was simply horrifying. HUGE amounts of blood, and that was the tip of one finger. What this story is claiming makes no sense.


I don't believe this story is the truth. But, giving some benefit of the doubt here, assuming it happened sort of like it was told, here's my opinion:

My opinion on the puppy: There's nothing evil about this puppy. It's a teething puppy. Maybe a hungry puppy, we don't know. If you gave a puppy a raw beef bone with some meat attached, wouldn't you think it would be perfectly normal for the puppy to chew and eat it? Of course. So, not to be gross, but to a puppy, don't you think paralyzed fingers are just the same as a beef bone with meat on it? Sure. No one is telling the puppy "No!", no one is saying, "Ouch!" and pulling their hand away. Of course the puppy isn't going to stop, why would it? It's a baby, it doesn't know any better, it hasn't been trained or taught. Maybe the child ate, say, chicken for dinner and had chicken on his hands. (Although if the child's hand is paralyzed, how is he eating dinner with that hand? Hmmm .... but I digress.) And maybe they gave the puppy some chicken too. So the fingers now smell and taste just like the chicken the puppy was given to eat. Puppy doesn't know, it's just a puppy.


My opinion on the parent: I don't think letting a new puppy sleep with a partially paralyzed six year old is the greatest idea. But it's not the worst idea either. Honestly, would 99% of parents think, "Better not do that, what if the puppy eats his hand?" It's just too bizarre; the normal, rational person wouldn't think of it. I don't think the parents were negligent. Maybe not the best choice, but not negligent.

Very well said, Twister.
I too wonder about blood loss, etc. This story seems a bit 'fishy.'

Excuse my ignorance, but i have never heard of crate training a dog, except when I came to PT, please what is it? I don't think New Zealanders do this!

(Although if the child's hand is paralyzed, how is he eating dinner with that hand? Hmmm

Twisterdog - excellent observation! I never even gave that a thought. Have you ever considered a career in law enforcement or detective work! ;) :cool: Now I am having my doubts too. Hmmm...

I first used crates for training in 1984 - YIKES almost 20 years ago! It was at the suggestion of the breeder whom I bought my dog from that year. Initially I thought the concept was cruel but gave it a try at her suggestion. It did help in quicker housetraining and each dog that I have gotten since then has been crate trained. Of course once they proved themselves 'trustworthy' to have the run of the house it was put away. I would never want to see a dog in a crate for hours on end though. Fortunately I only worked part-time while using the crate.

I don't believe it for all the valid points above. The truth will come out. Pam, tell little Ripley my Badger says "HEY BUDDY!" Hope to see you again in Doylestown next year. Three 1/2 weeks old, that pup could not survive without feedings every few hours, ask Aly.

I haven't heard anything on the news about it yet......

Quote:

---

Originally posted by carole
Excuse my ignorance, but i have never heard of crate training a dog, except when I came to PT, please what is it? I don't think New Zealanders do this!

---

A crate is a portable "kennel" that is just large enough to contain the dog it is intended for, made of either metal or plastic. "Crating" is the practice of using this kennel for training purposes, usually in housetraining and houseproofing a dog.
Crating is a controversial topic. There are those who believe that crate training is indefensible and others who believe that it is a panacea. The reality is likely somewhere in between. And, Dogs are by nature den creatures and the crate, properly introduced, is its den. It is a safe haven where it does not need to worry about defending territory. It is its own private bedroom which it absolutely will not soil if it can help it. Judicious use of the crate can alleviate a number of problems, stop others from ever developing, and aid substantially in housetraining. The major use of a crate is to prevent the dog from doing something wrong and not getting corrected for it. It is useless to correct a dog for something that it has already done; the dog must be "caught in the act". If the dog is out of its crate while unsupervised, it may do something wrong and not be corrected, or worse yet, corrected after the fact. If the dog is not corrected, the dog may develop the problem behavior as a habit (dogs are creatures of habit), or learn that the it can get away with the behavior when not immediately supervised. A dog that rarely gets away with anything will not learn that if nobody is around it can get away with bad behaviors. So people use crates to train there dogs to not chew and housebreaking plus the million other things people use them for. :)

I've decided that while it is a plausible story, I believe it is fiction, or mostly fiction. So I will bow out of the discussion.

Just wanted to include a link to the ABC story I read about
this event.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...5dogbite.shtml

Also wanted to add that I don't think the pup was evil or
demented, just a very young pup. Ever get nipped on the toes
or fingers by those razor sharp teeth that puppies have? Lastly, I
don't think it was sensible to leave a pup that age unconfined
anywhere. I'm sure it was not potty trained & most likely not
fed properly. Even if the animal curled up & slept, it would very
likely make a huge mess in the bed. Bad idea.

Never liking to reveal my age...but, I grew up with crate trained doggies, and I am, gasp, 38 this year!

My thoughts? WOW. This, like most things in life, comes down to education. If I have to place blame, as lawyers like to do, I do place it with the 'adult' in the house.

Taking the facts as true, who in their right mind places a baby animal with a partially paralyzed child? My thoughts would be FIRST for the animals safety, as that is what I signed on for when I brought them into my home, and the LIKELIHOOD of injury is with the pup, rather than the child.

I am NOT saying I don't owe a responsibility to the child, obviously, that is not accurate. But, in this situation, I would have thought the risk laid with the puppy, not the boy.

But, to PTS the dog? Come on. However, in the age of PP (permissive parenting) that makes much more sense, I guess, then saying to little Johnny, "no, puppy needs to sleep in his crate, the floor, outside your room, etc.":rolleyes:

The whole thing reads like fiction. And to the person that said, "what do they gain by lying about it"? Lies are abound, all the time, everywhere, in the news, internet, and sadly, in our own lives.

posted by Cataholic:
Taking the facts as true, who in their right mind places a baby animal with a partially paralyzed child? My thoughts would be FIRST for the animals safety, as that is what I signed on for when I brought them into my home, and the LIKELIHOOD of injury is with the pup, rather than the child.>>>>>>.

I agree, THe puppy is to young to be left
un-supervised with a young child whether or not the child
was partially parayzed.

(lets hope the story is fiction)

P.S.
Given an entirely different scenero:
Even an adult dog can be harmed by a very young
child, and the dog may protect itself by using it's teeth.

Why take the chance?

Thanks CamCam, that was very informative, I donot think this is practiced here in NZ, but I am not certain, as I don't know a lot of doggie owners.,but it is new to me.:)

Ok, I haven't read all responses to this thread yet (haven't gotten past the first page actually) but come on! This puppy was not a monster. Examine the facts.

- Puppy taken away from mother 5 and a half weeks too early
- Child's hands smelled like dinner from the night before
- Puppy started chewing because the hand smelling like food was right there and puppy probably had no idea what it was doing

IRRESPONSIBLE mother lets puppy sleep with young child. A number of things could have happened.

Not to mention, why when he was 5 yrs old was he walking home alone???????????????????? Thats when he got hit by a truck!!!! GEEZ.

Bottom line: 100% blame on mother. The puppy should still be alive.

Quote:

---

Yes, the puppy is a finger chewing monster.

---

I'm not putting blame on anyone here, but I would hardly call this dog a monster. Almost every puppy or kitten I have ever met likes to nibble on fingers, Corkscrew still tries to bite my toes at night, but that doesn't make him a monster. The reason why Corkscrew stops biting me is because I pull my fingers or toes away and say "No" so he knows he has to stop. But I know if I just sat there and let him and my toes weren't moving he would continue to chew unless there was something to stop him, but I wouldn't say he was unwell or a monster. I'm assuming that if the mother was letting the puppy sleep with the child he hadn't shown signs of aggression. How is a young puppy supposed to know that what he was doing was wrong? The fingers smelled like dinner and they weren't moving and nothing was being done to tell him he was doing wrong. To him the fingers were no different then a dog bone or anything else that smells like food.

Dogs can sense things .. since the hand was paralyzed, the pup might not have thought it was a real hand. Smelling like food didn't help matters either.

This is Sebastian at 2 weeks (they supposedly got the puppy at 2 and a half weeks)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...6/fb54b740.jpg

Sebastian and Piper at 5 weeks (the age of the puppy when the accident happened)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...a/fb23f5a1.jpg


They definately have teeth at 5 weeks, although I'm not sold on the fact that they could chew through 4 fingers. I guess its possible though, especially if they think they aren't human fingers, but a good dog treat. My own babies can never eat solid food on their own until 8 weeks though.

I'm with KayAnn on this one. Crate training! :mad:

Idiots.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by aly
This is Sebastian at 2 weeks (they supposedly got the puppy at 2 and a half weeks)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...6/fb54b740.jpg

Sebastian and Piper at 5 weeks (the age of the puppy when the accident happened)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...a/fb23f5a1.jpg


They definately have teeth at 5 weeks, although I'm not sold on the fact that they could chew through 4 fingers. I guess its possible though, especially if they think they aren't human fingers, but a good dog treat. My own babies can never eat solid food on their own until 8 weeks though.

---

I think that a child's bones are softer than an adult's. Also I know some breeders that feed a raw diet and they wean pups onto chicken necks and wings, so.....

Quote:

---

Originally posted by CamCamPup33
A crate is a portable "kennel" that is just large enough to contain the dog it is intended for, made of either metal or plastic. "Crating" is the practice of using this kennel for training purposes, usually in housetraining and houseproofing a dog.
Crating is a controversial topic. There are those who believe that crate training is indefensible and others who believe that it is a panacea. The reality is likely somewhere in between. And, Dogs are by nature den creatures and the crate, properly introduced, is its den. It is a safe haven where it does not need to worry about defending territory. It is its own private bedroom which it absolutely will not soil if it can help it. Judicious use of the crate can alleviate a number of problems, stop others from ever developing, and aid substantially in housetraining. The major use of a crate is to prevent the dog from doing something wrong and not getting corrected for it. It is useless to correct a dog for something that it has already done; the dog must be "caught in the act". If the dog is out of its crate while unsupervised, it may do something wrong and not be corrected, or worse yet, corrected after the fact. If the dog is not corrected, the dog may develop the problem behavior as a habit (dogs are creatures of habit), or learn that the it can get away with the behavior when not immediately supervised. A dog that rarely gets away with anything will not learn that if nobody is around it can get away with bad behaviors. So people use crates to train there dogs to not chew and housebreaking plus the million other things people use them for. :)

---

Did you copy and paste this? If so you need to site an author and copyright information. It just doesn't sound like you wrote it is all.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Shelteez2
I think that a child's bones are softer than an adult's. Also I know some breeders that feed a raw diet and they wean pups onto chicken necks and wings, so.....

---

I didn't say it was impossible. I stated I actually did think it was unlikely, but possible, so ............

Quote:

---

Originally posted by aly
I didn't say it was impossible. I stated I actually did think it was unlikely, but possible, so ............

---

Yeah I know, I was just agreeing with you that I supposed it could be possible. :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Shelteez2
Yeah I know, I was just agreeing with you that I supposed it could be possible. :)

---

Ah :) Sorry, I am too quick to jump to conclusions!

Anyone else not a huge fan of crate training? I remember my friend's mom telling me about it, and I did attempt it with Wylie a few times, but it just didn't seem right for me and Wylie. Am I alone? Everyone I know thinks it's the greatest thing ever.

Crate training is a wonderful asset if done correctly. Maybe you didn't go about it the right way? It should be made a positive, wonderful experience for a dog. I crate train all of my foster puppies and dogs before they go to their new homes. I crate trained my own dogs for the first month or so after I got each of them, but there is no need for the crate anymore.

The benefits to crating are numerous. The method has saved NUMEROUS dogs from being turned into a kill shelter. I know this for a FACT because there are always people trying to give my shelter their dogs for reasons like destruction. When my shelter doesn't have space, the people say they are going to take their dog to the kill shelter. I always talk to them about crate training and do a follow-up call. I cannot tell you how many people have been so grateful that they are able to keep their wonderful dogs because they started using a crate. Crating also helps with housebreaking and adjusting to new environments. Its also nice to have a crate trained dog in case they ever have to be kenneled at the vet (like in emergency medical situations). Also, it makes travelling that much easier if the dog is used to a crate.

The reason it didn't feel right for me and Wylie, is because Wylie was such a smart, considerate dog.

He learned all of his tricks on his first day at our house. He's never chewed anything of ours and he doesn't have accidents.

I think if I had had a less obedient and/or more hyper dog who wasn't a quick learner, crate training would have been appropriate, but with Wylie it seemed unnecessary.

He does have a kennel, and he is used to it. We just don't lock him up in it.

Simba is a very smart, considerate dog. He minds his business, he touches his things, leaves ours be. It's been like that since day one.

I couldn't imagine teaching Simba and Nala all of the tricks they know on the first day. That would be too stressful and boring for the dog.


We bought him a crate, which now Nala uses, the first day we got him. We didn't want to take the chances of getting into things that could harm him while we were gone. Not saying that he would, or he could -- We just took those extra percautions to take care of our baby, just in case.

Nala goes in her cage when we feed her in the morning & I have to go to school. I used to keep her in there at night, but she "graduated" to my bed. :p
Both of my dogs know the command "Go in your cage." We could tell them from the living room, to do so and they will. Simba even opens it.

Crate training or not, a 5 & a 1/2 week old puppy, being so young, I really don't think should be left unattended, especially with a young child, who is paralyzed at that.
It was totally irresponsible of the mother, and if I were her I would have been more afraid for the dogs safety than the child's. Although i'm I don't know this young child, most young boys or young children at that -- aren't too aware of "Hey, This puppy is alive. It feels, and it hurts. Be nice to it."

Aly, in my previous answer to this thread I opined the idea that a pup that age would most likely wake up every several hours wanting to nurse (5 1/2 weeks?) Maybe being weaned but still needing to wake every several hours. That reason, among others, led me to believe there was something not right about the story. I ended my thread by saying "ask Aly". To me you are the authority here on new born/just getting their wings puppies. Thanks for re-affirming my thoughts. Love you. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Soledad
He learned all of his tricks on his first day at our house.

---

:eek: :eek:

Wylie is an amazing dog. Never had one like him, and I imagine I never will.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Pam
:eek: :eek:

---

Ditto. ALL of his tricks on the FIRST day? :eek:

I really don't think this story is true. But if it is, it's not the puppies fault. It is the irresponsible mothers. I agree with Kay, a young child should not be left alone with a puppy. For both of their sakes.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Soledad
The reason it didn't feel right for me and Wylie, is because Wylie was such a smart, considerate dog.

He learned all of his tricks on his first day at our house. He's never chewed anything of ours and he doesn't have accidents.

I think if I had had a less obedient and/or more hyper dog who wasn't a quick learner, crate training would have been appropriate, but with Wylie it seemed unnecessary.

He does have a kennel, and he is used to it. We just don't lock him up in it.

---

When thats the case, then people usually don't crate train and thats perfectly fine. I'm a crate advocate for dogs who need it for behavioral reasons. My dogs are housebroken and not destructive so they are not crated anymore. I crated for the first month because Reece had seperation anxiety and would have busted through a window and Lolly I didn't trust alone with Shiloh at first.

Alright, I have scoured the net and found several versions of this story.

In some stories, the puppy was given to them as a gift by the aunt THREE weeks before the incedent.

Apparently when he was hit by a truck, he was walking home with his older brother. This happened over a year ago, and the doctors said that he'd fully recover from the accident. So why is he paralyzed???

I've seen several spelling/grammar mistakes in most of the stories I read. It could be that this story was severely altered in it's legitimatcy. Or it could be like the Macdonalds story.

I emailed snopes.com since I didn't find the story in their archives. I'm sure this is one they'd like to add whether it's true or not... (It seems a little "off" to me with the stereotyped breeds, young dog, and the whole scenario, but I dunno...)

I'll let you know when I hear back from them.

As to crate training...it isn't a punishment, rather, it is a tool. With Binx, I crated him for the first 3 days with me, until I had some time to see how he was, which happened on the Saturday and Sunday, 3 days after I got him. Binx doesn't 'need' to be crated. That is because of his breed, and prolly, his teeth. As a 4 month old puppy with teeth, I am sure I would have found his chewing a bit more destructive. Crating is a wonderful tool, when used right, as with most things.

Binx learned nothing his first day with me. Shoot, 6 months later, we are still working on some things....he he he...major things....

I would like to adopt a retired racing greyhound someday. They are crate trained for racing, and adopters sorta "switch them" to house-training. Obviously my future dog will have his own crate and have to stay in it now and then while getting acclimated.

Training in itself is not cruel, but it can be abused. Any training or care method can be abused either deliberately or simply out of not knowing how to do it properly.