Speaking of illegal immigrants...

The problem with absolutes is they are so ...well absolute.

For example....a man driving his in-labor wife to the hospital is speeding. Cop stops him....absolute says....detain him, write up ticket, etc.

Another example....kind and gentle man loves cats...hates suffering. He provides a home for many otherwise homeless cats...more than the law allows. Has them spayed or neutered...feeds them, provides them with proper vet care. He loves them while they live and mourns them when they die. Absolute says....must obey the law....cats over the limit have to go!

I see circumstances in both of these situations that suggest compassion, understanding and something more than absolute.

To me, the world is far more complex than absolute allows.

Better be careful Sara, your wisdom is showing. Bravo. :D

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Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary

To me, the world is far more complex than absolute allows.

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Absolutely!

:D :D

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Originally Posted by sparks19

P.S.S- Do you know what Mexico does to their illegal immigrants?

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While in general, I have some issues with what seems to be your lack of compassion towards others, it is this statement that I select specifically.

This is somewhat of the 'problem'. A country that does such a thing to their illegals is not to be congratulated, or, be held up as some example. And, maybe, just maybe, some of the people crossing our borders are attempting to escape such a country for reasons like this.

While it is one thing to say, "you can only come here if you do it 'legally'", it is quite another to consider the people for which this is virtually an impossible task. I just don't see it so simply as you do. You seem to think that, "If they would only just try, they could do it". I don't think that is accurate.

For me, I just can't look at the world without compassion and empathy. While I don't claim to have the answers to any of life's problems, I don't walk around without knowing how very priviledged and fortunate I am to have been born an American. (which is not to mean I am disrespecting any other country, or, thinking that if you are not American, you aren't anyone. Just recognizing I live a pretty priviledged life, and haven't walked a half inch in anyone else's shoes.)

Well, I don't know that much about American history, but I know that most of the people living there are immigrants - or at least your ancestors are. I have not checked what the laws was like then, but I believe that when those people came to USA, they were given a piece of land and started from scratch to build houses and find work. Were they legal or illegal? I think that they felt a lot more welcome than today's immigrants!

The world has grown since, and some people are born in very poor places. :( Shouldn't they be entitled to a good life too? They are certainly not reluctant to take sh!t jobs!

John and I have travelled a few times to Dominican Republic, and although the tour guides recommended people not to go. John went to Haiti to see what life was like there. He filmed quite a lot, and also mixed with the locals (he had learned a few sentences in Creole, which helped him having an entirely different experience), while the rest of the group followed the guide, and in fact was scared of the population. :rolleyes: When he came back to our hotel and told me how people were living there, I cried.

I have a feeling that a lot of Americans haven't travelled very much and seen what the world is like other places. Seeing things in real life often change your point of view I think. Recently, I saw a documentary about North Africans trying to get to Spain in small boats - it was heartbreaking! I would not have survived half the journey!

The immigration laws are changing all the time, and I think they need some adjusting now, to give everyone a fair chance to make a decent living. However, when a person comes to another country, he/she should make an effort to adjust to that country's rules and not try to convert the population to the rules they're used to.

Of course, the best solution would be to teach people in poor countries how to survive and build what is needed. Less children would help too.

Too bad we can't stop fighting wars and start helping other countries build up their economies so people wouldn't be so despirate they feel they have to leave, even if it breaks other countries laws.

Too bad some of our local programs for seniors and the low income have had to be canceled because the government can't afford to help it's own people any more either. I know lots of seniors who depend on some of those programs that no longer exist. (the programs, not the seniors) :(

I have been biting my tongue for ages, but I cannot hold it back anymore.

Sparks, you need to get a grip. You married an American, and are now working towards your citizenship. Great, I really hope you get it soon. I am just shocked by your lack of compassion for other people who do not have the means to go your route, and that you can not acknowledge you are privileged coming from Canada.

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Please note that if these "poor souls" came to this country LEGALLY, they would not have to live such a "hard life".

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I guess you don’t have any idea what sort of life that they left behind.

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Why do I not deserve to come here to LIVE with my husband without having to pay all that money and having to fill out all that paper work? Because I am white? Because I don't come from hardship? Why?

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No one is questioning your right to be in the States, in fact I have only seen people congratulating you. I am just amazed you cannot see the difference between yourself and someone who has no other chance to enter the US, except illegally.



I have been in Spain for 4 years, and have been processing my paperwork for all of that time. I am still not fully legal, and have spent thousands of euros and hours making these papers. Every week boats come here to Gran Canaria, filled with Africans, trying to enter Europe illegally. They come in huge numbers, run ashore with only the clothes on their back, after spend weeks living in their own sh*t and p*ss., in some cargo hold. Many claim refugee status, and get provisional residency within months. Even more simply disappear. Do I resent them or envy them for it? Not at all, I just wish all of them could be so lucky.

Claiming refugee status and just hopping the border are two totally different things.

I am sorry that you all see me as having no compassion but the law is very clear.

I am sorry but there are far to many poverty stricken people in the US already who are legal. I think we should use our resources to help THEM. The people in this country who live on the street, who can't feed their families, the starving children.

I think we should fix the poverty problem here before offering to fix someone else's.

I never EVER once said that I did not recognize that I was privileged to be from Canada. I just simply stated that how do you KNOW I was not living in poverty. how do you know I wasn't living on the street? Canada has poverty and so does the US. You just assume that because I am not from Mexico that I had all the means readily available to me.

Like I said, you want compassion. I have compassion for the people who can't get any help from their own country because they are too busy with someone else's poverty.

I am sorry you don't see it this way but I think we should be helping our own people get on their feet, once that happens then we can work on saving the southside of the border.

I just can't see not helping our own people who are law abiding (for the most part lol) in favour of helping illegals.

And Jackie if you have something to say just say it. What is the point in "biting your tongue" if you have something to say about something you believe in then you should say it. YOU are not going to hurt my feelings by standing up for what you believe in and I don't think you are going to hurt anyone else's either. YOU should ALWAYS stand up for what you believe in, not just sit in the background wishing you had said something.

RAndi You cannot compare immigrants 100 years ago to immigration NOW. Times are way to different for them to be compared. it is like comparing apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by sparks19

I just simply stated that how do you KNOW I was not living in poverty. how do you know I wasn't living on the street? Canada has poverty and so does the US. You just assume that because I am not from Mexico that I had all the means readily available to me.

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Your posts could not come from someone that had known such dire straits. And, you had means available to you, as you wouldn't be here if you did not. (I hardly consider living apart from one's recently married spouse dire straits).

There isn't any law that one must have empathy. You are free to make your judgments, as are all of us. But, I would hope that you would recognize the image you leave behind with your message.

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Originally Posted by Cataholic

Your posts could not come from someone that had known such dire straits. And, you had means available to you, as you wouldn't be here if you did not. (I hardly consider living apart from one's recently married spouse dire straits).

There isn't any law that one must have empathy. You are free to make your judgments, as are all of us. But, I would hope that you would recognize the image you leave behind with your message.

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Who's to say that my husband didn't save me from dire straits? :D

Anyway

to be honest. I don't really care about my "image" I believe what I believe and everyone else can make their assumptions from there. I don't live my life and believe what I do worrying about what others might think of me. There are ways for refugees to come to the US. Many have done it, many others can do it, they just choose not to.

I am sorry, I do NOT condone illegal immigration for anyone and if that makes me a bad person in your eyes well then so be it. There have been many refugees that have come from FAR worse conditions than Mexico and yet they are legal :eek:

At the risk of sounding callous to PTers...are we saying EVERYONE should be able to come here and live and have all the rights of American citizens without becoming a citizen? I guess I'm a bit confused...I'm proud to be an American, but feel that everyone who wants to come here needs to process properly! I welcome anyone who comes here and follows proper procedures, but, this other crap is for the birds....

As for U.S. History...yes, we were all, at some point, immigrants, with the exception of Native Americans, however, we were subjects of Britain (or Holland, or Germany, or Sweden, etc). When we fought the American Revolution and gained our independence, we wrote the Articles of Confederation (which were basically useless) and then scrapped those and wrote the Constitution and we became the United States of America. At that point there were immigration laws put into place, and while they have changed over time, we still use them today in order to keep our country safe and not over run with masses of humanity.

coming in a bit late here but...

I hate how people can come to our country and not pay taxes for 5 years. It sucks. And I hate how people come up with little organizations to go up against A CHRISTMAS TREE.. give me a break. Also, it annoys me so much how juries work. They put the stupidest people on those things. "Hey, some girl was being dumb and got burned from mcdonalds coffee while driving... let's make someone being stupid rich!" Everything is becoming a scam and if it isn't a scam- it is prejudice. Religion, color, race, doesn't matter. I just had a talk with someone the other day how it's like a white person is becoming the minority and others are being pitied more. Ya, whites did a lot of harm to indians, blacks, etc. but do they need to STILL be paid off? Immigants... why can't they just become a citizen if they hate thier country so much? I don't pity what happened to him because of what happened but i don't agree with what did happen. But then again.. it leads me back to "juries, scams, and prejudice" The juries got him in jail, the parents were scamming and someone out of that (or more) were prejudice. I think the government is going down the drain and something has to be done... or we are just getting stupider. Some of the things are up to the jury people (this one might have) so in a waay... americans could have put him in jail. Americans are using pity and scam to destory eachother. Its sad and i know this is heading off topic.. very... but yeah i'm disgusted with how my country is run sometimes.. even though i hate all governments practically. Systems don't work.

More for people coming here- they can come here all they want but i agree with mugsy- go through it properly.

Also, as long as i am ranting about the government, i do not agree with us being "police of the world" I mean as great as it is, look what happened in Star Wars. The jedi's were the peace keepers and then they turned and killed them off! Now there are people trying to blow planes up through explosives in LIQUID! I wonder when we will learn to keep off and HELP keep peace- not control it.

Alright i can go on forever so i'll stop. But sentence about the actual thread: I don't pity him but i don't agree with what happened.

huh? :confused:

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Originally Posted by mugsy

At the risk of sounding callous to PTers...are we saying EVERYONE should be able to come here and live and have all the rights of American citizens without becoming a citizen? I guess I'm a bit confused...I'm proud to be an American, but feel that everyone who wants to come here needs to process properly! I welcome anyone who comes here and follows proper procedures, but, this other crap is for the birds....

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Not what I am saying at all.

It was more in response to the few people who feel this man was there illegally and therfore shouldn't be entitled to free legal representation/he is a criminal and deserved jail time.

I don't know, for me it is a touchy subject because I personally know a lot of illegal immigrants here, and they would jump atthe chance to do everything above board. :(

There aren't any poor people in the United States or in Canada.

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Originally Posted by Vio&Juni

There aren't any poor people in the United States or in Canada.

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:confused: Was that sarcastic? Or are you asking? I sure hope you weren't serious!

JenBKR, that is exactly the response I was expecting. It's the same I feel when I see phrases like "if they would do it properly". I am sure people don't even know what they are talking about.

Do people really think that you can go to e.g. US Embassy in Moldova and say - I want to be an American citizen? Yes, a lot of Moldovans did get the settlement visa, but most of them were married to American citizens, just like Sparks - that is not immigration - that is a settlement visa for a wife (husband) that can give you the right to apply for citizenship after a few years. But, then again, if your marriage fails you're expected to go back to your country.

People can't go to the US embassy and say "I want to move to the US and live there, and become a citizen because life is better there". But people still want a better life for themselves and for their children and they find ways to get there, maybe with a legal visitor visa, overstaying, maybe crossing the border illegally. The problem exists and it will exist and if you toughen the rules, it just doesn't help cutting down illegal immigration - it will only help the facilitators - prices for their services will go up and the illegal immigrants will just suffer more humiliations when trying to cross the border. Believe me. I come from a country where 1/4 of the country is working abroad illegally. We have huge problems with people trafficking and even organ selling.

My point here is that by shouting loud "I could do it, why can't others do it like me?" it's impossible to solve this problem. The solution isn't simple, it's just as complicated as the problem.

To be understood correctly, I do not say that illegal immigration is good. I never did in this thread. I did say I don't think it is a crime, because by our legislation crime is something related to homicide, we have another word for minor deliquencies. It is illegal. What I tried to say was that people like to point fingers without even trying to understand the situation.

Let's do the following - check the website of the International Organisation for Migration (or any other organisation that deals with migration, BBC website might have some links to some websites) and see for yourselves how sophisticated is this problem and what solutions have been found for illegal immigration in different parts of the world. See the horror people go through to get to a better place and then tell me again "it's a free ride".

BTW, I don't think there is a better place than my country. I'd never leave my country if it was just for a better quality life.

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Originally Posted by Vio&Juni

JenBKR, that is exactly the response I was expecting. It's the same I feel when I see phrases like "if they would do it properly". I am sure people don't even know what they are talking about.

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Gottcha, for a second I was afraid that you may actually believe that everyone here is rich, which is so far from the truth. I tend to not weigh in too much about the immigration issue personally because I can see both sides. Dang, wouldn't life be easier if everyone just loved everyone and anyone could just go wherever they want? In a perfect world.......

well again all I have to say is I know people who come from far worse countries than mexico (Somalia for example, they can't even eat without flies being all over their food even in restaurants where the "wealthy" people go)

I know people who came from FAR worse conditions that make Mexico look like freaking Club Med. they managed to become legals why is it so difficult to expect people to go through a process. So all the time they have been working illegally in the States what have they done with the money earned? they should spend it on immigration to become legals. I just hate seeing in the news a bunch of bleeding hearts crying because some lady is being deported after living in the States Illegally for 30 years. In that 30 years she never had an opportunity to go through the process? I am sorry I just can't see your point of view.

I started my immigration BEFORE I was married. now that I am married I have to fill out a whole new set of papers. Don't tell me I don't understand how immigration works. I have been doing it for a long time now and I am still not half way done. it sucks. But if you are going to let anyone come in without going through the process then you should allow EVERYONE to do it.

Just curious Sparky....have you ever been to Mexico...or Somalia?

I have not personally been there but my husband was deployed to Somalia for a year and he has LOTS of pictures. he had to live their "lifestyle" for a year. Not quite as bad as they did because he was there with the army but he could not eat food without eating a couple 10 or 20 flies. They eventually learned to just eat with their eyes closed and just give a quick blow on their food before they stuffed it in their mouths. I trust what my husband tells me

I also know MANY people from Somalia and they all tell me the same.

I have been to mexico. Mexico in real life does NOT compare to Somalia even in pictures. Have you?

LOL P.S - how did you know sparky is my real nickname :D LOL I love it

I never mentioned any country, nor Mexico, neither Somalia. Do you think a Somalian can get a Green Card? Most of them came and stayed illegally in the first place and then tried to get a refugee status, which again is not real immigration.

Just out of interest, you said you started your immigration process before you married. Was it a fiancee visa that you applied for?

Sparks19, from where are you emmigrating? Canada?

I know the rules are different from different countries, even the ones that border the US.

I worked with two young women, J and K.

J's mother was a Canadian by birth, her father was American.
K's mother was a Mexican by birth, her father was American.
Both mothers were legal immigrants, and had dual citizenship.
Both girls were born on US soil, spent time living in both countries as children, but most of their time in the US.

When J turned 18, she was granted dual citizenship.
When K turned 18, she had to officially chose - she could have American citizenship, or Mexican citizenship, but not dual citizenship.

Interesting, huh?

I went to school in Mexico the summer I turned 16. I lived and worked in Mexico years later for two years as an expatriate. I have also vacationed there many times. Trust me when I say...vacationing there is NOTHING like living there.

I have been to Africa, but not to Somalia.

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Originally Posted by jackie

I don't know, for me it is a touchy subject because I personally know a lot of illegal immigrants here, and they would jump atthe chance to do everything above board. :(

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Then why are they not doing it??? Just asking...not trying to be nasty.

I just think that we need to have better border control...on both borders and stiffer penalites for those who come here illegally.

I think we need to take care of our own first and then help others. I know if I lived like some of the people in the back hills of Appalachia and KNEW how much aid was going overseas and I wasn't getting any of it, I would be beyond livid. :mad:

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Originally Posted by mugsy

I think we need to take care of our own first and then help others. I know if I lived like some of the people in the back hills of Appalachia and KNEW how much aid was going overseas and I wasn't getting any of it, I would be beyond livid. :mad:

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Yes...just think if we weren't in Iraq helping them establish a new government what we could do with that money here at home....New Orleans.....etc.

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Originally Posted by Karen

Sparks19, from where are you emmigrating? Canada?

I know the rules are different from different countries, even the ones that border the US.

I worked with two young women, J and K.

J's mother was a Canadian by birth, her father was American.
K's mother was a Mexican by birth, her father was American.
Both mothers were legal immigrants, and had dual citizenship.
Both girls were born on US soil, spent time living in both countries as children, but most of their time in the US.

When J turned 18, she was granted dual citizenship.
When K turned 18, she had to officially chose - she could have American citizenship, or Mexican citizenship, but not dual citizenship.

Interesting, huh?

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That is very interesting. Yes I immigrated from Canada. My husband was told that if he immigrated to Canada and then became a citizen that the US would make him give up his US citizenship after a certain amount of time. I don't know how true that is but I thought that was very strange.

Vio&Juni, No it was not a fiancee visa. I originally started with trying to get a work visa and then work towards permanent residency. But when we got married all of the work I had done was null and void. Getting married changed my status in the US. NOW, If I had come here gotten married and not returned to Canada (which is perfectly legal) I could have processed my papers from here but I would not be allowed to leave the country until it was done.

You see you don't have to get a greencard to be a legal citizen. Especially before 9/11. you can get permanent residency or you can get a K visa which will allow you to live and work in the states and process your citizenship papers from here. I don't have my green card. I am not even close to getting it. But I am a legal resident. I haven't even started filing the papers for my green card. THAT IS immigration.

What do you think immigration is? apparently you and I have two totally different views on how immigration works. you do NOT have to stay in your country until you have your green card. They have processes to allow you to come here and work here until you can file your citizenship papers. YOu don't even HAVE to file for citizenship if you don't want to. you can just file forms to be a legal resident. You pay taxes, you can work, you can come and go as you please but you are NOT granted citizenship. Many people do that because I know sometimes the US will make you choose citizenship. Like I said my husband can be a legal resident in Canada and keep his US citizenship but if he becomes a Canadian citizen the US will make him choose just one.

Edwina, I know vacationing is not the same. They told us at the resort that we shouldn't wander too far. well we did anyway. I can't tell you where exactly we ended up but it was very seedy. But they had homes and no one looked like they were starving to death.

My hubby has been to 32 countries and some of the places just look like a wasteland. Dirty water, flies everywhere, constant sand storms, the people were starving. No real shelter, only make shift homes that threatened to fall everytime a sandstorm passed through.

I talk about immigration with everyone I can. They are more helpful to me than any lawyer or INS officer. I hear the different processes people had to go through depending on where they were from and what they were coming to US/Canada for.

P.S- Vio&juni Have you gone through the immigration process? spousal immigration or otherwise?

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Originally Posted by sparks19

Edwina, I know vacationing is not the same. They told us at the resort that we shouldn't wander too far. well we did anyway. I can't tell you where exactly we ended up but it was very seedy. But they had homes and no one looked like they were starving to death.

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And which government would you have expected to bail you out if you had gotten in trouble by not following directions? Would it have been the Mexican government's responsiblity or the US or the Canadian?

Some countries allow dual citizenship some do not. The concept is when you pledge allegiance to a country you cannot still have allegiance to another country. Most people who have two passports do not have them offically. (I.E. they were born to parents of one country in another country.) Often the problem comes up in countries with manatory military service. Serving in another country's military is a big no-no.

Canada and the US have some special arrangements under NAFTA that allow workers in some specialities to work "on the other side" without the so-called green card. There are also H1B's and student practical work visas.

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Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary

And which government would you have expected to bail you out if you had gotten in trouble by not following directions? Would it have been the Mexican government's responsiblity or the US or the Canadian?

Some countries allow dual citizenship some do not. The concept is when you pledge allegiance to a country you cannot still have allegiance to another country. Most people who have two passports do not have them offically. (I.E. they were born to parents of one country in another country.) Often the problem comes up in countries with manatory military service. Serving in another country's military is a big no-no.

Canada and the US have some special arrangements under NAFTA that allow workers in some specialities to work "on the other side" without the so-called green card. There are also H1B's and student practical work visas.

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It would have been the Canadian governments responsibility. I am a Canadian citizen. If something were to happen and I, say, went to jail or something I think it would be Canadas responsibility to provide me with legal counsel or have me sent back to Canada to await sentencing there. I pay taxes there (well not now because I'm not living there lol but at the time I was). As for injury, I have travel insurance (it was either that or they wrap me up in styrofoam because I am dangerous to myself lol). so no concern there.

My hubby tried to come to Canada and work there but because of his skill set it was very difficult for him to find a job as a network architect. however it was quite easy for me to get a work Visa here. I don't know if it was because I don't have a specific skill set or what but I know it can be difficult if you have a very specific and very popular career. Everyone is an IT person these days lol.

can we deport this thread? ;)

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Originally Posted by RICHARD

can we deport this thread? ;)

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Sounds good to me


I have seen what Edwina's Secretary does to people she disagrees with :eek:






http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...d/edcfbe17.jpg

amen RICHARD, amen.. unless that too is bias toward a religious bent :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by sparks19

You see you don't have to get a greencard to be a legal citizen. Especially before 9/11. you can get permanent residency or you can get a K visa which will allow you to live and work in the states and process your citizenship papers from here.

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I know it's not only Green Card that allows you to stay there. What you explained works for you, as a Canadian. Nationals of other countries would not be allowed to work in the US and get legal residency. They would have to enter the country either illegally and find a way to legalise their stay or legally as a visitor and change their status, but you understand that is illegal too - you have to enter the country with the proper visa.

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They have processes to allow you to come here and work here until you can file your citizenship papers. YOu don't even HAVE to file for citizenship if you don't want to. you can just file forms to be a legal resident. You pay taxes, you can work, you can come and go as you please but you are NOT granted citizenship.

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No national of any country is granted citizenship immediatelly, you need the permanent residency for a few years.

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I hear the different processes people had to go through depending on where they were from and what they were coming to US/Canada for.

P.S- Vio&juni Have you gone through the immigration process? spousal immigration or otherwise?

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I mentioned earlier that I have worked for a Visa Section - not US, another one.

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Originally Posted by Vio&Juni

There aren't any poor people in the United States or in Canada.

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You are 100 percent correct.


People who live in AMerica are rich beyond beleif.

We might not have the best country on the planet.

We have crime, hate, injustice and all the things that go along with being the
"superpower" that people make us out to be.


Our richeness has tio do with the opportunity, freedoms, and ability to choose
what we want out of life....

THere are many people who think that riches are just connected with money.
Those are the people who are poor of heart.

I like to believe that I am richer than Bill GAtes.

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I tend to think that the bias towards illegal immigrants is the fact that they are breaking a law and overstressing a system that is out of order already.

It has nothing to do with where they come from.

But, that is my own simple belief.

Just remember ... what is illegal today, may be legal tomorrow. :eek: ;)

amen Sister ;)

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Originally Posted by RICHARD

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I tend to think that the bias towards illegal immigrants is the fact that they are breaking a law and overstressing a system that is out of order already.

It has nothing to do with where they come from.

But, that is my own simple belief.

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You hit the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned and have already said before!!!

We may be the richest country on earth but we also have a real problem with homeless people. How can we reasonably expect to absorb hundreds of people sneaking into the country every day when we can't help the homeless or our senior citizens for that matter now?

It's like saying " We don't care about you even though you are citizens. We are giving all the support to people who really shouldn't even be here. "

I truly hope everyone owns their own home and has a nice nest egg by the time they hit retirement age you you will be in a royal mess! Believe me, I speak from experience!!!