Printable View
I wasn't going to respond, but I'll just say that I can understand Popcornbird's take on the situation. If it was Jesus that was the target of the cartoon, I would be pretty upset. Not to say that I condone at all the threats and violence, but I can't judge an entire group of people based on a few extremists. There are extremists in Christianity that I'm not proud of, people that take it way too far, and I hope not to be judged by them as well.
Having freedom of speech is one thing. Using it in the wrong way is not acceptable when it comes to the media spreading it, especially when it is intended to hurt a major part of the world. That's called the misuse of freedoms. Too much of anything is good for nothing. If its an individual using his freedom of speech to say such things, fine. A newspaper showing it to the whole world and in such an insultive way is NOT acceptable.
Richard, I wasn't going to answer you, but I can't stand it any longer. Words cannot express how much you anger me sometimes. Do NOT dare bring the Quran in this. Comparing the Quran to flags? Shame on you. There's a major difference between flags and a book people believe to be from God. For Muslims, without the Quran, there is no life. Its more important than oxygen to us. You compare the wrong things. If you want to burn the flag of a Muslim country, big deal. That would hardly offend anyone. Even if it would, certainly not to such an extent. It makes me furious that you would dare mention the Quran in this way. I can't believe I'm responding this nicely when I'm so angry inside. Ugh.
I'm still observing and pondering over the hypocracy here. Its actually quite amusing. Sheesh.
PCB, I think this really is hard for us westerners to relate to, try to remember that. People drive around with a cartoon of a boy peeing on the cross all the time, to me you just can't get that mad about things like that life is to short and its not worth it.
On the other hand I think the cartoon was in poor taste but look people are getting killed over this that part is just overboard. Try to remember those are all symbols and people will desecrate them, whats in your heart is whats important.
Freedom of speech in the Middle East?Quote:
Originally Posted by popcornbird
We regularly have people burning flags and books, bibles and churches here in the UNITED STATES. No problem.
Apparently you miss the point. If these protestors have the right to burn Danish, Swiss and any other flags, why not burn a Quran?? I merely pointed out the hypocrisy behind the idea of the self righteousness of the idiots that are fanning the flames of this controversy.
I recognize the poor people used as pawns in the demonstrations and the AHs that are at the head of these countries, laughing at how these cartoons keep the heat off of them-They keep the populace poor, shoeless and illiterate....in order to keep themselves in power...
Hating the Great Satan keeps the people ticked off at them and not us!
You burn the book, not the ideals behind it. Same thing with any paper product.
Asking for Holocaust cartoons really makes sense...
Of course I can burn anything I want. It's my right. Should I be stupid enough to go downtown to a mosque and do it there I am assured that a few people will take exception and I probably will go to jail.
Hypocrisy?
Look it up in the dictionary.
It's people taking the teachings of Muhammed and calling for the infidels to be smitten.
It's an iman, with nothing better to do, advocating death because of a cartoon.
It's the guy from the Council on Muslim Affairs (or somesuch organization) coming on American TV and saying that it is wrong to portray the Prophet in pen......But not acknowledging the hooliganism going on...instead he makes excuses and says that the teachings of Islam are misunderstood.
Just like here in Lost Angeles after the riots in 1994.
People get the kneejerk reaction going and all hell breaks loose.
Burn down your neighborhood, the stores on the corners, burn it all down.
Just like the car fires in France and Germany. Show your discontent by destroying everything around you. Then come back and tell the world that you are mistrusted, misunderstood and not respected.
------------------------------------------
When the Holocaust cartoons are printed watch what happens.
Rabbis will shake their heads and wonder. The people who actually suffered during that time will shed a tear and no one will take to the streets to protest in front of any embassy...
-----------------------------------------------
I'll let you in on a secret. If I was stuck on a desert island with a Bible
and no paper to wipe my rear end, using it in that way wouldn't diminish the thought or idea behind it. It's what you believe and what's in your heart.
Not some moron who says, "Boycott, Kill, Protest, Destroy..."
There are plenty of voices like that that rise above the din. It's up to the people at his feet to pull him down and denounce that kind of 'free speech'-until that happens, I do not buy one word of it.
Bruce Hornsby says it best-
"That's just the way it is, Somethings will NEVER change."
Well I have stayed out of this up until now. My first thought was *it's all about how one responds to a wrong.* That said, of course the cartoon was insulting. No doubt about it. I think what bothers most people is the response to the cartoon.
As a Christian I have seen *zealots* (and I use the term very loosely) embarrass me. A good example of this is those who, supposedly in the name of Christ, will bomb an abortion facility. Of course the papers always are quick to report if the person has claimed they are a Christian and doing it for the Lord or some such nonsense. Never would Jesus condone that. Of course we all know that the murder of a doctor or the bombing of a facility is not the appropriate response for the taking of the lives of the unborn (and yes I do feel that abortion is murder but that is a topic for another day). That said, I think what is at question here is the response of the people.
PCB I feel for you in that I have been embarrassed by the actions of people who claim to be of my faith. Of course they are deceived and are not Christians at all because of the evilness of their actions. Please don't let this get you down. The media enjoys reporting bad news and bad actions and revels in the actions of hippocrits of all faiths and sometimes paints the entire religion with the same brush. I hope that there are enough people out there to see that the actions of those so-called Muslims and so-called Christians who do these terrible deeds are really not followers of any religion other than hate.
Exactly - you put that better than I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pam
I've been following the story on the news, and really it is a little silly, i mean they had placards that said 'behead those who insult islam' and stuff like that. Yes, it may have been offensive, but death threats are overboard. And as others have said, stuff like this happens to christianity all the time, and also around here jews are likely to be called names and stuff, but there's never been reactions quite on that scale before. I know many Muslims in my school and they are ashamed of the protesters and some aren't really that bothered, after all, it's just a cartoon, and they're designed to be a joke, not to take seriously.
An interesting article which gave me more to think about.
Mocking Muhammad
Published February 8, 2006
For all the uproar they have caused around the globe, the 12 cartoons of the Muslim prophet Muhammad commissioned by the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten are about as juvenile as the stunt that produced them.
Muhammad with devil horns.
Muhammad with a bomb in his turban.
Muhammad greets a band of suicide bombers at the entrance to heaven with the words, "Stop, stop, we've run out of virgins."
It's not surprising that Muslims, who believe any artistic rendering of the prophet is blasphemous, were offended. Offending them seems to have been the point of the exercise. The editor of the paper invited cartoonists to submit drawings of Muhammad to challenge what he said was a climate of self-censorship.
Angry Muslims demanded an apology. What they got was a simplistic defense of the right to free expression.
Newspapers across Europe reprinted the cartoons as a sign of solidarity. The German paper Die Welt printed the bomb-in-a-turban drawing on its front page and asserted defiantly that in free societies, "there is a right to blasphemy." The daily France Soir republished the drawings under the headline, "Yes, We Have the Right to Caricature God."
All of this indignant posturing overlooks the fact that nobody's stopping editors from publishing whatever they wish. Freedom of speech, after all, means, freedom from government sanction, not freedom from angry reactions by your readers. Petitioned by Muslim groups who wanted the newspapers prosecuted, the governments said they could neither control nor apologize for the actions of a free press.
The governments held to this position even as the flag burnings and boycotts of Danish goods escalated to mass demonstrations and the torching of embassies in Syria and Lebanon. Several Muslim countries recalled their ambassadors from Denmark, as if the Danish government were somehow to blame for the cartoons.
Many Muslims undoubtedly fail to see that distinction because their own governments dictate what is and isn't published. Some of those same governments aren't troubled by content that is offensive to other groups, regularly permitting or even encouraging the publication of anti-Semitic material.
In some Arab countries the message is controlled so tightly that U.S. officials are openly suspicious of, for example, the "spontaneous" protests in Syria, in which marchers chanted slogans against Americans and Jews on their way to set the Danish embassy ablaze.
The editor of the Danish paper that started it all says he's stunned by the response. Yes, the violence is a stunning response.
Yet, those who aren't offended by the cheesy cartoons can still be dismissive of the various papers' protestations that some greater good was served by publishing them. It's arrogant and disingenuous to claim the high moral ground for insulting an entire religion just because you can.
The Danish paper says it is sorry for hurting feelings but defends its right to publish the cartoons. American newspapers, including the Tribune, support that position. Most, though, including this one, have chosen not to print the drawings themselves. Editors here and elsewhere decided the story could be told without publishing images that many readers would find deeply offensive.
Yes, we have the right to mock Muhammad, Jesus Christ, anyone. But with rights come responsibilities. "Just because a society has almost unlimited freedom of expression," cartoonist Garry Trudeau told the San Francisco Chronicle, "doesn't mean we should ever stop thinking about its consequences in the real world."
Hmmmm, Trudeau thinking about the consequences? THAT IS FUNNY!Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbud
I'll have to read his strip from now on! ;)
Liz- I agree with that last part, about responsibilities...but, what about the idea that you can't control what someone else says or believes, or chooses to portray, so, just turn away?
I mean, we can't ever control what someone else does (at least not in this country, anyhow)- i.e., the cartooners, so, put the effort back where you have some control- on you (not you, Liz...but, you, the public), the viewer. Change your(not you, Liz) attitude towards the offense....
I just can't really envision mustering up such emotion over a comic strip. And, if it is choosing between the lesser of the two evils- I will choose irresponsible freedom of expression over censorship.
I do think its ironic that freedom of religions is enjoyed by muslims in all western countries but if a christian is caught with a bible in some middle eastern countries we are in big trouble. That is a bit of hypocrisy in my book.
Since everyone has their undies in a bunch about cartoons, where is the indignation about a REAL problem..
The tapes released by the kidnappers of Jill Carrol?
Richard- I usually don't see much mainstream news, not by choice, but, but by design, and was shocked to see that major story. You are so right, so right. Where IS the indignation over Ms. Carroll's capture?
What ever happened to Diplomacy? Does any country have Diplomats
anymore? With two cultures so vastly different from each other, there
needs to be better communication between the countries, or the world
is in big trouble. :(
Most western countries have diplomats in the middle east, but it is VERY hard to discuss diplomacy when your embassy is under attack.