is this cruel?

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Originally posted by micki76
I think what we all need to remember is that having dogs is just like having kids (or it is to me). Many parents don’t spank. Many parents don’t speak harshly to their kids. Many parents use other ways to motivate and discipline their kids than other parents. Everyone is different, so our methods will all be different. I personally don’t like spanking kids, unless they’ve done something atrocious, but many parents use it for not telling the truth, talking back, etc. Some parents don’t spank at all.

Let’s all remember that we’re all different.

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:) Smart minds think alike :) We posted pretty much the same thing at the same time :)

I also want to add, that someone who has never owned a giant breed, stubborn doggy, really can't understand the importance and usefulness of this collar....again, used appropriately, it can assist in positive results.

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Originally posted by bckrazy
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with using prong collars at all. Nor do I agree with choke chains. These are all just band-aids to the real training problem, using pain to subordinate your dog. To me, if some one absolutely needs a prong collar to control their dog, they have little to no control over that dog. What if the dog does manage to escape the collar? Will they be long gone? probably.

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That is a point I was trying to make, but you have worded it so much better than I managed to spit out. Sometimes I am so passionate about things that I don't know what I'm typing :o Great post and I totally agree.

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Originally posted by bckrazy
(because the dog lacks training and, despite the painful collar they're wearing, in their minds they are still the alpha).

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I disagree with this. Timber has always and will always be a very submissive dog. She has never shown any dominant behaviour towards a human. She would show lots of submissive urination when she was young. The prong collar also does not cause her any pain. Timber is very sensitive to pain. When something hurts her, she yelps. She does not even pull when she wears a prong collar -- which means she doesn't feel pain, nor does she even feel any discomfort. IF she is not feeling any pain or even any discomfort, I don't see how it is cruel. In my mind, letting her wear something that is potentially dangerous (ie, she can pull out of, she can drag with, or causes tracheal damage), is what is cruel. The only thing that works with her is a prong collar. No pain, no discomfort, because when she wears it, she does not pull at all.

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Originally posted by bckrazy
To me, if some one absolutely needs a prong collar to control their dog, they have little to no control over that dog. What if the dog does manage to escape the collar? Will they be long gone? probably.

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I don't agree with that at all, simply because my dogs are very well trained and I normally have full control over them. If they happened to escape the collar (which I doubt they could, prong collars don't slip off easily.) My dogs would come back almost immediately, I jsut think the sue of the prong is much safer for both the owner and the dog depending on the situation. I agree with pretty much everything Jordan said..... But once agian that's just my opinion:)

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy


I also want to add, that someone who has never owned a giant breed, stubborn doggy, really can't understand the importance and usefulness of this collar....again, used appropriately, it can assist in positive results.

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I don't think that is a fair statement at all. I use ONLY positive reinforcement on leash training shelter dogs (AND dogs in obedience classes) of all sizes, shapes, and personalities. Because I don't own a Giant breed doesn't make me ignorant to what works. I do this almost every day with some of the most stubborn dogs you'll come across.

I just wanted to add one more thing, sorry :o , some dogs are naturally, genetically, more stubborn than others, and also not so quick to learn. I have to say, our neighbors Shepard is much more quick with learing things, then Dale. Shepards are highly intelligent dogs. But i knew Swissie's weren't *the* most intelligent breed around, and can tend to be stubborn at times. This type of collar has allowed me to get through to him, in a way that works for *his* personality type...just the same as potty training...paper training may work for a 15 lb toy poodle, but would certainly not be an option for a Swissie. We certainly do use treats and so forth when training, from a day to day basis...just in this department, a pronge is a neccessity. OKay, I am done :)

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Originally posted by aly
I don't think that is a fair statement at all. I use ONLY positive reinforcement on leash training shelter dogs (AND dogs in obedience classes) of all sizes, shapes, and personalities. Because I don't own a Giant breed doesn't make me ignorant to what works. I do this almost every day with some of the most stubborn dogs you'll come across.

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Just because something works for you, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone and every dog. If you feel confident in your training stubborn dogs w/o one, then kudos to you (seriously)...but for *me*, personally, Dale needs to be on a pronge if *i* am to take him for a walk, where other people and dogs may be...before owning a large breed, i may have felt differently, who knows, but considering my circumstances...it is a good choice for us.

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Just because something works for you, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone and every dog. If you feel confident in your training stubborn dogs w/o one, then kudos to you (seriously)...but for *me*, personally, Dale needs to be on a pronge if *i* am to take him for a walk, where other people and dogs may be...before owning a large breed, i may have felt differently, who knows, but considering my circumstances...it is a good choice for us.

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It doesn't just work for me. It works for all other staff and volunteers at the shelter. It works for everyone who takes obedience classes from us. It works for some of the best behaviorists and trainers in the world.

And its not just the people who are experienced dog handlers and experienced in positive training. The everyday Joe Blow who takes our classes comes out with these methods working. And yes, several people in the classes have huge breeds.

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Originally posted by wolfsoul
The only thing that works with her is a prong collar. No pain, no discomfort, because when she wears it, she does not pull at all.

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I understand, thats totally your opinion and your dog, and this is just my opinion.. :) But to me, it just seems like if you have to put this pinch collar on your dog in order to walk her, there are still underlying problems. Its like dogs that need prongs are not pulling because of intimidation or threat. I think that dogs shouldn't yank you around because they respect you, and they've been trained not to pull, period.

And, yes I have had a very stubborn, huge dog in the past. when we got our Rottie, he had been owned by an abusive man and had never been leash trained at 4 years old. He would go crazy and bark and pull you across the street if he saw another dog (even though he loved other dogs, when properly introduced). We did use prong collars, haltis and choke chains at the strong recommendation of the highly educated Petsmart trainers. Nothing worked, at all. He would pull less with a prong collar, but the problem was still there, and if a dog really wants something and doesn't respect their owner and hasn't been trained thoroughly, they WILL pull to get it. Then my Mom found a wonderful Obedience academy, and after almost a year of training, he wouldn't pull us for the life of him, no matter what kind of collar he was wearing. He weighed well over 120 lbs, but he would walk right beside me with a loose leash no matter what kind of dog we were aproaching, when I was 9 years old.

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Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Just because something works for you, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone and every dog. If you feel confident in your training stubborn dogs w/o one, then kudos to you (seriously)...but for *me*, personally, Dale needs to be on a pronge if *i* am to take him for a walk, where other people and dogs may be...before owning a large breed, i may have felt differently, who knows, but considering my circumstances...it is a good choice for us.

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Amen girl!!! Well said indeed!!!!!

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Originally posted by aly
It doesn't just work for me. It works for all other staff and volunteers at the shelter. It works for everyone who takes obedience classes from us. It works for some of the best behaviorists and trainers in the world.

And its not just the people who are experienced dog handlers and experienced in positive training. The everyday Joe Blow who takes our classes comes out with these methods working. And yes, several people in the classes have huge breeds.

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Well, that is great for you and your staff and everyone who comes to your shcool. Different strokes for different folks. 3 out of the 9 dogs in *our* obedience class used them, and we all benefitted from it. Our trainer has been training dogs for 30+ years and I would go there again and again. His dogs are absolutely unbelievabley well trained. I am not going to turn this thread into *my* trainer is better than yours, and *my* trainer is more capable than yours...that would/could only be ones opinion and not factual.

I have been basing everything I've said on fact.

And I am not surprised your trainer has been doing it for 30 years. Those are mostly the ones who do still use those methods.

I think the main thing that bothers me with collars such as these, is that people DEPEND on them (Not saying all people do, but a majority do) - and I don't like that. I'd much rather someone spend time with their dog, training it on their own, instead of depending on man-made products. (This includes bark collars and so on)

That's just my opinion and not one that I need to be bashed/bickered at for. :)

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Originally posted by Kfamr
I think the main thing that bothers me with collars such as these, is that people DEPEND on them (Not saying all people do, but a majority do) - and I don't like that. I'd much rather someone spend time with their dog, training it on their own, instead of depending on man-made products. (This includes bark collars and so on)

That's just my opinion and not one that I need to be bashed/bickered at for. :)

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I so agree :) I'd also rather train my dog based on trust/respect than fear/pain.

STOP arguing! Gah! No one is going to change anyone else’s mind about this issue, state your opinions and then let it go!

Why does every disagreement have to turn into an argument lately?