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I think that depends on the breed, example rottweilers, they barely have any tail left after docking as some breeds have 3-4 inches left, it depends on the breed of dog.Quote:
If you ever see a dog whose docked tail is pretty much gone, then the vet doing the crop did not know what he was doing.
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Originally posted by DogLover9501
Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped
Then they obviously don't know much.
It's been proven that cropping has NO affect whatsoever on dogs getting ear infections or not.
Well ear croping is not one at all over here so i dont have to see it. but if it is for breed standerd showing, to me, breed standerd is as they are not how they have been modifid (?sp).
all dogs and cuter naterally.
As for tail docking, i have never seen a BC with docked tail, to me they dont need to be docked.
if they are a well known happy breed then maybe it should be done but for working purposes no they need their tail for balance etc.
Sheep do need to be docked, as cleaning a flock of over 100 sheep and lambs is obserd, fly strike can kill a lamb.
As for cows well i would laugh it became comon, how stupid is that, they (mostly) are brung in for milking twice a day so it wouldnt be any trouble to wipe away the muck,
But people will do as they wish no matter what we think.
Ky and Rio
Done in the USA, not everywhere. Cropping and docking (but especially cropping) is illegal in other countries outside the US. Tail-docking and ear-clipping are already illegal in most European countries, including Britain. I've been doing some research and reading and here are the list of countries I have found as pertains to cropping and/or docking:Quote:
Originally posted by GSDgurl
I see no reason in trying to change something that is done in so many breeds for so many years....I just can't see it happening.
United Kingdom: Cropping is illegal.
Australia: Cropping is illegal.
Canada: In Newfoundland and Labrador cropping is illegal.
New Zealand: Cropping is illegal
Netherlands: Ear cropping became illegal in the sixties.
September 2001 docking was also illegal.
Belgium: cropping was illegal by end 2001. In January 2006 docking will be illegal.
Italy: Cropping is reported to be illegal. Docking is reported to be illegal since February 2001.
Germany: Docking and cropping have been forbidden for a few years.
Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and Denmark): docking has been also banned for years.
Switzerland: docking has been illegal for a couple of years
A clip from AR-News article:
I'm reading from many sites that quite a few vets are opposing surgery for purely cosmetic reasons totally.Quote:
A bill to ban ear-clipping is in the works. But even while such practices are still legal, Ms. Barnato is encouraged by the number of vets who are starting to take a stand on their own. In one recent survey of California vets, only 10 percent said they will clip ears, and 56 percent support legislation to ban it.
From Vet 4 Pets page:
I'm additionally apalled that a breeder can legally do this procedure on their own without vet care.Quote:
Although breeders can perform this procedure, it is best left to a licensed veterinarian, who has appropriate anesthetics. Puppies who undergo this procedure expect at least a few weeks of painful, sensitive ears. Unfortunately, the splinting of the ears is necessary especially during the early stages of healing, which adds to their discomfort. Unless you're planning to show your dog in conformation classes, ear cropping is un-necessary, and therefore becomes personal preference.
From an MSN news article:
There are just tons of articles on this issue, and if you (meaning anyone reading this) are someone who feels that it is only a small group of extremists are making a fuss about it, you are very wrong. This practice is very much in question, and a very hot issue with bills being introduced and discussed.Quote:
Healing from ear surgery is slow and painful for a dog and there is a risk of complications such as infection. That according to Dr A Crook of the Atlantic Veterinary College.
Australian shepherds don't have tails, and they can be quite good herders. Rottweilers can be good at herding as well. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Rio and Me
As for tail docking, i have never seen a BC with docked tail, to me they dont need to be docked.
if they are a well known happy breed then maybe it should be done but for working purposes no they need their tail for balance etc.
There are reasons for tail docking and I don't feel it should be baned.
I'm going through it right now, we are trying to decide if we need our Dane's tail docked. He has hurt it so many time, by beating it against wall, trees, tables, fences and he has even hurt people with it, me being one of them. He has so much force behind his tail and it's always going at full speed. There have been so many times I've had to doctor his wounds that the vet has suggested to us that maybe we should think out docking it, just a little
All 3 of my Boxers have their tails docked, not that I did it, But I couldn't image them having their natural tail. Just by watching how fast their little stubs move, I can only image what damage they would do to it if it wasn't done. Some breeds needs their tails docked, for their sake.
I'd hate to have some law maker telling me sorry you dog will have to suffer with his wounds. I don't think so.
The ear croping, I have a different view. I did Tuffy's ears, and I will never do that to a dog again. I was told it was not a big deal to do his ears and I was foolish enough to belive them. For anyone that says it not that painfull for the puppy, I'd have to say come look at the pictures I have of Tuffy. We both went through hell with his ears. It is painfull and I learned a very hard lesson at the Tuffy's expence. I will never crop a dogs ears as long as I live.
My other 2 Boxer and my MinPin came to me with thier ears already done, it was not my doing, for anyone who might question that they have theirs done too. I do not crop ears and never will. Even though they do look cute with their ears. ;)
I think in time ear croping will be baned in the US, even now it's harder to find a vet that will do it. I know that for the 3 countys around me there is only one vet that does it. But I hope they don't ban the tail croping complety, medical reasons, well being of the dog it should be done.
K9soul- Thats neat your reading many sites.....pertaining to this article. Personally I didn't know so many countries had banned these procedures....Thanx for the incite. As for the U.S....I don't see it being banned...because...well thats the U.S. And yes....I well still believe it is a group of people trying to ban this.....I don't care what anyone says. There is also a "group" of people that are against banning it. (not trying to be rude....so plz don't take it that way)
Fox-Gal- The cropping can go wrong for some dogs....but that doesnt mean all. My Dobermans ears healed up great after his surgery n' he diffenetly didn't go though "hell" because I made sure he didn't have too.
Kfamr- But yet a dog with standing ears has less of a chance of getting an ear infection then a dog with floppy ears.
As for not many vets doing this practice.....we have 5 vets that practice ear cropping in just my area.
That's true, different breeds have different standard lengths for the tail to be docked at. But a lot of people who don't know anything about docking think, and say, "Poor dogs, it's so mean to cut off their tails. How can they tell you they are happy if they can't wag their tails." Which, of course, is false. I just wanted to make sure people knew, docking is shortening, not completely removing, the tail.Quote:
I think that depends on the breed, example rottweilers, they barely have any tail left after docking as some breeds have 3-4 inches left, it depends on the breed of dog.
A dog with heavy drop (floppy) does indeed have a far greater risk of ear infections than a dog with prick (standing) ears. Bassets, cockers, springers, etc. are all much more prone to ear infections than a dog with prick ears. The reason being is that the bacteria and/or yeast that cause ear infections grow in an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment. If the ear flaps are heavy and hang close to the dog's face, then oxygen cannot get down the ear canal, and bacteria and/or yeast grow like crazy in there.Quote:
Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped
Then they obviously don't know much.
It's been proven that cropping has NO affect whatsoever on dogs getting ear infections or not.
But yet a dog with standing ears has less of a chance of getting an ear infection then a dog with floppy ears.
So, there is indeed much truth to saying that a dog with prick ears gets less ear infections than one with heavy or hairy floppy ears.
However ... most of the breeds that traditionally have cropped ears (boxers, pit bulls, great Danes, dobermans) etc. do not have excessively heavy drop ears. And they do not have the hairy ears of a cocker or a springer either - hair being another thing that contributes to lack of oxygen in the ear canal.
So to say cropping prevent ear infections is probably not valid, beause the breeds that are cropped are not normally prone to anaerobic ear infections anyway.
Now, if you were to crop a cocker's ears (perish the thought!) it definately WOULD get less ear infections. Many vets recommend tying a cocker's or a basset's ears together on top of its head with a hair tie for several hours per day, to allow the oxygen into the ear canal.
Simple good ear hygiene can do a lot to prevent ear infections as well. Ear mites can contribute to ear infections, especially in the outer ear canal, due to their droppings. Willie got an external ear infection once that I had to medicate with an antibiotic ointment, though his ears weren't floppy at all. I really don't think it's necessarily accurate for that vet to say Jasper would not get infections if his ears were cropped. Boxer ears do not hang down too heavily and they do not have "hairy" ears.
People with dogs who have very heavy ears are often advised on keeping a closer eye on ears and keep them clean. If they swim or get the ears wet I think it's especially encouraged to clip the ears up for a bit until dry.
However, I would not crop the ears of a bassett or bloodhound or cocker just to reduce ear care and possibility of infection, thus why it is totally an invalid excuse IMHO for the cropping of Dobes/danes/pits etc etc.
Honestly, and no offense intended here, I think people just get used to a look and so they don't like to see something different, even to the point they turn a somewhat blind eye to the fact that there IS pain involved for the dog. Would you want to see a yellow lab with cropped/pricked ears similar to that of a doberman or a boxer? They have a very similar type of ear to the natural ears of those breeds. We are used to a lab's ears the way they are, so I'm willing to bet most people would be appalled/shocked to see cropped ears on a lab.
If the ears of these breeds had never been cropped in times past, we would all be perfectly used to seeing these dogs with their natural ears, the same way we are with a lab, retriever, weimeraner, and on and on with other dogs who have natural ears that are very similar in size and set.
My grandfather crops all of his cattledog's tails. He says it prevents injury. That working dogs often get them stomped by cows, shut in gates, etc...
As far as cropping for cosmetic purposes goes, I'm undecided. I love the look of cropped ears and tails. Yet, I am not sure that I could bring my family dog in for cosmetic surgury. I'd probably rather them look natural then put them through unneccessary pain.
BTW. I was asking about cropping one time, and my vet is really cool, so he let me come back. They had this pitbull puppy put under on a table. There was blood everywhere as he trimmed his ears with scissors. He just keep looking and trimming a little off each time until he got the look that he wanted. It was very gory and disturbing.
K9soul- I also don't think that it is necessary to crop a bloodhouds or bassets ears.....just b/c they are heavy. I was just "stating" that a dog with upright ears is less likely to have ear infections than dogs with long heavy ears. I was not saying to just crop them all to prevent ear infection.
And yes I do agree with what you have said, about "if no one would have ever started this then everyone would be use to the way the dog "really" looks in its natural state." But thats not what happened in the past and we can't change that. If someone likes cropped ears...I feel they shound't be criticized for liking it.
I just feel like just because I like the look of cropped ears and I did my dogs ears....that you take me as a cruel, unhearted person towards mine n' others animals. Which is totally wrong....as I love all my animals to death n' would do anything for them. Yes cropping is a painful procedure, but its NOT cruel.
Im sorry if thats not the way any you guys took this....but that how I feel you did.
Casey
Uhh...then what's cruel in your dictionary? :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by GSDgurl
for them. Yes cropping is a painful procedure, but its NOT cruel.
Oh well. People have their own opinions.
Thank you for all your interesting comments, it has helped me now to form an opinion, I also had not heard of ear-cropping before and am glad to see its illegal in NZ.
I agree with what some others have voiced, if its just for cosmetic reasons, and causes the animal pain and suffering, then I am AGAINST it!!
As for our farm dogs, they never had their tails docked and no injury's ever happened either.
Most of the cattle here have their tails docked and sheep as well, and as you know we have a lot of sheep in NZ.
I think the bill will go ahead, despite a lot of objections from dog owner's, but we shall see.
I would never ever object my pet to un-necessary pain, just to show them, or because I thought it looked good, and yes if it goes ahead I guess dog shows will just be showing dogs with tails from now on.
You know I always thought cocker spaniels and dobermans were born that way, I never knew their tails were docked, naive I know, but honestly thats the truth.
:o
i love my little Jesse's docked tail. whenever she wags her tail; which is all the time, her cute, little butt wiggles all over. :D :D :D
GSDgurl, I don't feel you are a personally cruel, unloving pet mom. I hate the procedure and I don't like that it is done for looks, but I don't feel someone is a cruel person who has it done. It's hard to explain. My feelings are totally toward the actual procedure, I wouldn't feel hatred towards you or someone else who has had it done. I don't like that the AKC still promotes it, it seems like they are one of the only big kennel clubs left who still do so.
I guess I feel it's very important that people research and get the facts about it, the fact that it is indeed painful for the dog. I am betting a lot of people who have it done are told it's minor and maybe even that it isn't very painful, but from my research, the ears are one of the most sensitive places on a dog's body. The ears are packed with nerve endings and the pup's ears are quite tender.
As far as cruelty, well, I don't know if I would necessarily label it as animal cruelty in the sense of what I think of as cruelty. If it is done correctly, the pup goes in and is under anesthetic. He/she wakes up and probably has sore ears but does not understand why or understand that they are hurting in order to have a more pleasing look to their person. They aren't being beaten, traumatized with fear and real cruelty, if you see what I mean. They may be loved and adored and spoiled just like my pups, and live the rest of their lives in a wonderful loving home. That is why I don't classify it as cruelty, but to me it IS a mutilation and unnecessary.
I'm trying to be careful how I word things here, because I have no desire to attack anyone personally or pass any personal judgements by any means at all. It is the procedure I do not like and am against, not the people who have had it done.
I'd just encourage anyone to learn all about it that they can, and seriously consider it. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind here, but if I can help inform a few facts that maybe someone did not know, then I am very glad to have spent the time to communicate those. :)