Westminster 2009

I'm always extremely critical of the newly ruined "AKC" toller versus the original package.

Tyson has good points and bad.

Good: His body is well proportioned. Tollers should only be as long as they are tall. When they get too long they look like red border collies.

Bad: His head is too domed. His ears are just not right. His tail is too short. He at least looks 15-20 pounds bigger than he should be. Stop too prominant. Muzzle too short. Coat looks like it was shaved.

Honestly, if you set me in a room full of AKC tollers and asked me to judge their good and bad points, I'd walk out. The AKC is turning them into red and white golden retrievers.

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Originally Posted by IRescue452

I'm always extremely critical of the newly ruined "AKC" toller versus the original package.

Tyson has good points and bad.

Good: His body is well proportioned. Tollers should only be as long as they are tall. When they get too long they look like red border collies.

Bad: His head is too domed. His ears are just not right. His tail is too short. He at least looks 15-20 pounds bigger than he should be. Stop too prominant. Muzzle too short. Coat looks like it was shaved.

Honestly, if you set me in a room full of AKC tollers and asked me to judge their good and bad points, I'd walk out. The AKC is turning them into red and white golden retrievers.

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Sure, he's not perfect -- but what dog is? AKC hasn't ruined them that badly. They've only been recognized for 6 years, and IMO, haven't changed that much. In fact, Tyson is a Canadian bred dog, is he not? I think Tyson's a really nice dog for the most part, and most definitely of correct size, too. I don't know where you get that he's too big. His tail doesn't look short to me, either. He'd look a little ridiculous if his muzzle was much longer, IMO. His stop is a little prominant, and sure, his head is a little bit too domed for my liking... but overall, he's a nice dog and definitely deserved to win the breed. And while you're most certainly entitled to your opinion, I think you're a little too critical of the breed. They're still relatively new, and breeders are still striving to produce an ideal Toller. They're not a very uniform breed as of yet, and there are many different "types" still. Spring & Dance for instance, while neither are the prettiest Tollers there ever was, are still good examples of that. The only thing they have in common are that they're Tollers and they're red. Structurally, they're miles apart.

Well I guess it was just the short grooming job that made his tail look way too short. I'm looking at different pictures. I like a good big flag on a toller.

I do hope they continue to have the good height vs length proportions though.

I stand by that he looks huge. I'd like to know his weight. He has a roman nose. Ears almost as big as my train wreck of a toller, who btw I wouldn't trade for anything, but I wouldn't breed her either.

I readily admit that I do not know as much about Tollers as the three of you do, but I am not sure what you mean by way too big either, Irescue. I actually thought his size was very good. Were you mainly talking length? I agree with you Orangutango, although both of your girls are very pretty, they do seem to represent different preferences in how a Toller should look. And as I have told you numerous times, although I do think Dance is a very pretty girl, I just love the structure of Spring and her deeper color, she is my type of dog. :)

I like the Bichon for obvious reasons,saw the Breed judging video,thought they were all cute,liked that the winner was a female .I like her name Gemstone Spoiled To Perfection,I imagine she is spoiled as much as Fritz is.I was on up her on Animal Planet Canada,we don't get it, the first night is on again tomorrow on TSN ,a sports channel.I saw the Sussex Spaniel Stump won,nice looking dog.I will watch this tomorrow,see the Bichon in Non Sporting,too bad she didn't win,she got 4th,maybe she should have won instead on the Standard Poodle,and she got placed behind a Bulldog and a french Bulldog,ther is always next year.

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Originally Posted by lute

The only dog I don't understand winning is the herding group winner. I've seen that Puli in person and he's, in my opinion, not that nice. Plus, they dye the dog's coat.

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You know I thought the same thing. But I am just not a huge puli fan! But I said that to a friend of mine yesterday and he apparently knows the breeder of that dog.. and claims as far as Puli's go.. its a nice one? I don't know.. that is what he said LOL I didn't care for that dog. As far as the rest of the herding group.... the smooth Collie I wasn't real impressed with. The rough collie that got a G3, she is ok. She has only been with the handler who showed her at westminster for a few weeks... she always looked so much better with her previous handler... I think she got a G4 last year.

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Originally Posted by lute

CONGRATS STUMP!!! Very nice dog!

Cali is correct. You are actually not suppose to dye or chalk your dogs. Although, a great deal of people do chalk their dogs. Dying is much more frowned upon. I've even chalked dogs. Mostly legs and feet. In both Sibes and Aussies. You can't cover anything other than minor kennel stains with chalk. Dying can dramatically change your dog.

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I chalk my dogs (legs, chests, necks -- the white areas) I also have some brown powder chalk I chalk I can use on faces... but the majority of the chalk is brushed out before going in the ring. But chalking for some breeds has more of a purpose than covering stains.

I've seen A LOT of rusty tri-colors dyed for the ring... I've never dyed my dogs though, never had to... my tris are BLACK...

I don't think pulis meant to be nice.

Stump is a beautiful dog, but I have to question the ethics of showing him if he had a mysterious illness. You'd have to be absolutely sure it isn't anything that can be passed genetically, or why bother showing him in a show meant to select good breeding stock? If they can be sure it wasn't something that could be genetic, then great. He's a great dog and its so nice to see a breed win that isn't such a common winner like, say, oh, the poodle.

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Originally Posted by IRescue452

I don't think pulis meant to be nice.

Stump is a beautiful dog, but I have to question the ethics of showing him if he had a mysterious illness. You'd have to be absolutely sure it isn't anything that can be passed genetically, or why bother showing him in a show meant to select good breeding stock? If they can be sure it wasn't something that could be genetic, then great. He's a great dog and its so nice to see a breed win that isn't such a common winner like, say, oh, the poodle.

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He's 10 years old - wouldn't his stud days be pretty much in the past? He was sick 5 years ago, with no problems since then. From what I read, his owner/handler didn't make up his mind to go forward with this until last Wednesday.

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I'm always extremely critical of the newly ruined "AKC" toller versus the original package.

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well considering Tyson is Canadian, you cant really call him a "newly ruined AKC Toller" lol. I dont mind him actually, I agree that he DOES look a bit goldenish, but he a way nicer then many others I have seen, he can actually move for one thing, he has nice angulation..which BTW is a HUGE problem, one top winning Toller(over here) I know has such a straight rear you could put a ruler from his thighs to his feet and NOTHING will cross over that line, most others have back legs that are so long and straight they stick out backwards at an angle like a vaugely wavey slide. that is not sound structure for anything. I have a better question..can Tyson work? I would like to see him in a field, get at least a SH and hold up fine, if he can do that then I dont really care how "goldeny" he looks.

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Originally Posted by IRescue452

You'd have to be absolutely sure it isn't anything that can be passed genetically, or why bother showing him in a show meant to select good breeding stock?

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Yes... shows are meant to select good breeding "stock" however, in this day and age first off there are MANY MANY people out there who buy dogs from breeders just to show them, but do not breed. The point of dog shows is the pick the dog that the judge of that day feels best represents its breed standard, regardless of the dogs age, or what health problems the dog may have. You have to judge based on what dog is the best compared to its breed standard.

There are plenty of dogs out there who are finished champions who should NEVER be bred.. and there are plenty of beautiful, healthy, quality dogs out there who never finished their championship title but ended up being wonderful producers, producing better than finish champions.

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Originally Posted by Grace

He's 10 years old - wouldn't his stud days be pretty much in the past? He was sick 5 years ago, with no problems since then. From what I read, his owner/handler didn't make up his mind to go forward with this until last Wednesday.

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It really depends on this dogs health and upkeep on whether he is still able to sire litters at age 10. I know of Collies who have sired litters at 10-11-12yrs of age, large healthy litters. CH Pinewynd's Sparkling Brut, ROM is the top champion producing smooth collie stud in breed history. He just died last year at around 14yrs of age. He sired his last litter at age 12.

This morning, cute little Stump was on Good Morning America. His handler or owner or whoever it was with him said he had a bacterial infection but didn't elaborate on what type or what caused it or anything like that. Stump was a doll. Yes, I saw the scottie let fly! Granted, I don't watch a lot of shows, but I had never seen that....it WAS funny!!! She never missed a step

I LOVE WATCHING WESTMINSTER. OF COURSE I LOVE THE TOY BREEDS. :love:THE SMOOTH HAIR CHIHUAHUA PRANCED AROUND SO ADORABLY. :love:

Wellp... I was disappointed.. I knew who won (from the daily question on freekibble.com) but it just stung a little more once I watched it. Stump's not my type of dog.. and I really dont see what all the fuss was about.. but boy the crowd sure loved him.

About the Toller.. I honestly think Orangutango's Dance is better looking. (I'm a big fan of your crew btw...) I thought the coat on the Westminster one looked rough and I wasn't really awed by him.

We picked out some future furkids though.. I want a fawn boxer (She was beautiful!), a harlequin great dane, and a red doberman. Wow.. They were all beautiful.. and J wants a Bull mastiff or a dogue de bordeaux.. =) Of course.. whatever we run across in shelters is who we'll actually get.. but thats my wish list!

I actually picked the winner this time. That's a first for me. There was just something about that spaniel. :) Not a breed I am into, but I loved Stump. The non stop tail wagging I think it was did it for me.

I have become an admirer of the Norfolk Terrier, for sure. And, David I both really loved the Scottish Deerhound. What a beautiful, happy gait!

I was so happy Stump won! Gotta love it when the oldster wins, especially if he isn't the most glamorous of the bunch.

I didn't like the standard poodle either, not at all. I groom some better looking standard poodles than that one, I swear. The toy poodle, OTOH, was so adorable!

And I LOVED the rough collie, that dog is gorgeous.

It's been a long time since my breed, the smooth fox terrier, was in vouge at Westminster.