Shepgirl she was not talking about family dogs and you know it. She was talking about dogs being trained to be Service Dogs. Dogs that are trained to be Service dogs with the prong. Stop twisting things.Quote:
Originally Posted by shepgirl
Nicole
Printable View
Shepgirl she was not talking about family dogs and you know it. She was talking about dogs being trained to be Service Dogs. Dogs that are trained to be Service dogs with the prong. Stop twisting things.Quote:
Originally Posted by shepgirl
Nicole
SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.
Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash.
This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
I've watched people train dogs with almost every kind of gimmick out there. It doesn't mean the dog wouldn't learn without them, but their choice is to use training tools.which is perfectly fine, I've also used training aids.
But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program and given to a pet home or back to the foster home that nurtured them. They can also become EAD.
The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs. Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.
Agian you are false. Some facilities do use prongs. Why? Because some people, Like people that are severally paralized, are very weak in the hands so they need a collar that will get a quick response. Agian just because you have not see it does not mean it is not done. I am on enough training groups for Service dogs that have trainers from facilities and owner trainers to know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by shepgirl
Nicole
I'm not posting to argue but to clarify some core issues. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shepgirl
The OP was talking about real life scenarios and you happened to mention SD facilities in the course of the discussion, which I perceived as a general example for supporting the argument of non-use of the prong collar.
If you examine your comment, you say these facilities train without prongs.
Here is a main issue. Trainers in facilities are not not your average joe and they are not training average dogs. Do be aware that dogs chosen by SD 'facilities' for training are a subset of reality and the entire scenario has little similarity to real life circumstances and actual users of SDs and the eventual owners who need control over their dogs.
Compare real life dogs to the following:
Facility trained dogs are often expected to be certain generic breeds with selectively endorsed, despecialized behaviors. To further differentiate them from 'typical dogs', most used in service work are initially screened using a Vollhard type test and other protocols (and yet still result in 50% failure on average but this is another issue and an area where I also have experience).
What is "despecialized"? These dogs represent a population that are not intense herders, earthdogs, hunters, sighthounds, protection breeds, flock guardians, or gun dogs. These selected are not highly independent dogs which can have strong opinions about what their canine purpose on earth shall be and so ...they are ruled out. Dogs that are chosen are usually social, people oriented, medium or softer in temperament and are characteristically despecialized representatives of a limited number of breeds.
Secondly: Regardless of breed, these dogs are expected to be trainable for the professional SD trainer who is using predefined "accepted" protocols of training -- or else, the dogs are systematically removed from the training program when they are not adaptable to the program's methods.
Above selection scenario has elements of 'fixing the outcome' due to preselection ...and continuous removal of dogs from the programs.
It does not represent the general population of dogs. It can hardly be used as an endorsement for the non-use of prong collars.
I am not dissing positive methods of training method that work.
BF Skinner wrote about operant conditioning. It was only later that some took the methods, applied them to dogs and later there started to be a sort of religious jihad against other methods.
And finally, back to the program trained service dogs -- another reality check. :( ---
SD users (and the public) do run into certified program trained dogs whose owners are not able to consistently "perform" with their dogs with the same level of response as did their dog's trainers. --- NOT that it is happened, but to think that SD trainers could actually take a moral high ground due to the fact that they personally did not need prongs to train dogs to meet their own training goals, has very little practical relevance to the SD user who is not as 'accomplished' or able bodied enough -- and who desperately needs to stop their dog 5 seconds from now, from ripping their arm partly out of its socket. A prong could fix that in a second without argument from the dog.
But yes of course, bravo to the dog's initial trainer who didn't personally need it themselves. :confused:
On my site, I have written:
The best Trainers are those who never stop learning.
* They are the ones who have learned not to base their opinions about the usefulness of a training method, on the inability of someone (or a population of people) to understand and learn to use a method correctly.
* They are the ones best equipped to work with the sometimes unconventional (but so true-to-life) combinations of individual idiosyncrasies, personal strengths, and weaknesses which present with each student-dog/handler team.
. . .even when it means they must revise previously held concepts and challenge old ideas.
Thanks, and yes that is their heritage. :) They are very independent and tend not to transfer authority very well to other members of the same family sometimes. They are sometimes inclined to treat a person like a clod of dirt if they have other priorities. Selective deafness and all of that. So it takes a very specialized approach to modify their training and find ways to motivate them for different needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by shepgirl
http://www.cobankopegi.com/my/pt/pupsheep-ivan2007.jpg
Above, a couple pups with sheep.
Many Anatolian breeders have taken dogs back from 'pet dog trainers' who gave up on their Anatolians. Some had truly met their match in these dogs. Most pet trainers also do not compete in formal obedience as the degree of control & precision in sport training is just not 'their thing'. This is not to say that Anatolians are sport dogs but this is an example of why it is that some trainers are not as well balanced in their theory work as they think they are. It does seem that 'pet dog trainers' are very common now and some seem to be very opinionated. That's fine by me. We are all entitled to an opinion.
I have had problems however when the prospective owners of Anatolians report back to me saying that a trainer in their area will not accept Anatolians in their classes (I've seen the similar frustrations in reports on Caucasion Ovcharka and on Kuvasz, among other flock guardian breeds). This is not a general rule, but it does happen that some flock guardian breeds are refused outright before even being seen. This is hopefully changing. It's probably more common for owners of bull breeds to automatically be refused attendance in some training classes.
There is a danger in this in assuming all dogs and breeds of dogs are the same. This is why some of the Anatolians I know had to go back to their breeders. The expectations of the trainers were not prepared. Breeders did warn, this is a very independent dog, blah blah, but sometimes trainers are a bit overconfident. The breeder is hopeful and places the dog with this perfect sounding home, and before the dog is 18 months (in one case, only four months of age) the dog is back with the breeder. It is generally true that both the handler and the dog need to find a level of communication that is successful and I think sometimes Anatolians really drive that point home where it will not soon be forgotten. For some individuals the path is a bit easier and they wonder, are all Anatolians like this? -- their next one usually shows them the ropes. :)Quote:
Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash. This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
As I wrote in a previous post, this is an option for trainers who can choose the types of dogs they will train.Quote:
But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program
This is not a real world situation for trainers who MUST find ways to establish communication, trust and respect between a human and a canine student.
There is no cop out for them.
Depending on the person, their skills and motivation may or may not allow them to cop out on different situations.Quote:
The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs.
I agree. I don't think we disagree on anything previously written. Just that we have a different way of approaching it. I like having multiple choice in training methods.Quote:
Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.
Since I am a breeder of a potentially difficult and enormous breed, I often have to keep the human, canine and sometimes livestock behavior elements in mind when making a match or creating a solution. I usually advise people not to fight fire with fire when it comes to Anatolians, but there are times when strong adversives are necessary. The Anatolian has a very high pain threshold and electrified fencing may not hold them in if they see a predator such as a bear, lion or cheetah on the other side of a fence. Likewise in training with a human, sometimes a firm voice or a look (even a raspberry) can put them off (make them obey), other times you have to yank them off their feet. Their drive and gameness is legendary in Turkey.
Spanks may probably never need a stronger collar or harness than you use, but I have had communications with toy dog owners who do use mini microprongs. If they have a dog with a collapsing trachea and the dog is sometimes a handful (a chi trying to take on big dogs when on walkies, eg, a Great Dane), sometimes the collars really help settle the little dog down and the dog doesn't need to be handled roughly at all in anything like a 'correction'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenisrubber
Picking up a small fiesty dog when it has annoyed a larger one, even one on leash, can be dangerous for the handler and the small dog, because the large dog may reach up to see the small dog's face again, esp if the small dog is still yapping --and the owner can get scratched or knocked down. So keeping the dog on the ground when it is an option works fine, and some do use the micro mini prongs.
Thanks for the picture SemiviLady. I had heard that they put the pups in with the livestock to let them mingle and protect.
About the prongs, yes we are definitely on the same wavelength, you just express it better than I do. I don't have the enrgy to go into long descriptive posts so I was very interested in reading yours. I think the only difference is that I have never known an owner trained dog where you seem to be familiar with them. I guess maybe each country has their own methods.
On a side note, I know what you mean about training the Anotolian. I talked one of the neighbors to attend classes and it was a riot at first. Those are STRONG dogs...lol. But, believe it or not, this guy graduated with the rest of the class, But his dog is gifted for protedting his sheep and other livestock.Aloof is a mild word for their attitude...he knows us well and will sometimes greet us with a wagging tail where as on other occasions he will act as if he can look right through us ....lol. Gorgeous dogs although I really don't think my capabilities lie with that breed .....