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My two dogs "play fight" with their mouths & paw at each other ALL the time. It has taught my puppy awesome bite inhibition, & Gonzo has awesome bite inhibition as well. I think it's perfectly ok, actually I'm glad they play rough! It's healthy & normal for well-socialized dogs. They've never hurt each other, even by accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl
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Originally Posted by applesmom
Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but it didn't seem like you were agreeing with her, rather being sarcastic. My bad. ;)
That's okay. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference with just the printed word and no body language to go by. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfamr
I have to agree, my dogs even the cocker play fight with teeth bared and snarls and barks and anything else you can think of. No one has ever been hurt, and when they are brought to events for foster and rescue are the most patient and sweet tempered with the untrained and exuberant ones!
I think, it is common courtesy no matter where you are to ASK, the other owners, but in this case, that duty was incumbent upon the club. It was their decision to allow an exuberant pup and a novice handler participate, the more experienced handler that hit Zeke should have been reprimanded. Zekes mom should have been discreetly told what constitutes appripriate behaviour, and if she could not get that from Zeke, then for someone to TEACH her how.
You do not hand over car keys and say you have watched me drive for 16 yrs so here ya go, they should not have handed her an off lead time and done the same. Everything takes time and learning, it is up to those of us that do know to make sure that those learning are taught, at their pace, in the way that is best for their animal.
Just my opinion.
A mutual play fight is different from play agression. Just playing ruff taken all by it;s self isn't the problem either.
Hyzzie has play agression. She was feral when I got her having been dumped at a young age and fending for herself. She didn't know the difference between play and real fighting. She just had fun fighting. She still needs reminding.
Even just jumping all over another dog that's minding it's own busness and doesn't want to play is bad enough, though wasn't her issue really with strangers dogs. She had it real bad. She'd attack Quasi thinking it was play then try to correct her and she'd turn on me. I'm just lucky she found me most any other owner would of had her put down. She has drawn blood on me, in play!
She's a lot better now. She's always been sweet but she's still a big bully. She'd never want to hurt anyone. We call her our little nurse. She worries over everyone. She doesn't draw blood now and knows which people to play more gently with and who'll allow more.
Play agression is play to ruff. If a rottie pics up a chi and tosses it around that's to ruff. If it draws blood or makes the other dog yelp it's too ruff.
Play agression is using seriouse growls and not play growls but you need to know your dog to know the difference.
Play has gone to far if hackles are raised.
Play agression is being to forcefull. Trying to make another dog play when it doesn't want to. Hyzzie will pester Quasi and be all over him then if he snaps at her it actualy just eggs her on because now to her he's playing or she's is just being a bully and thrilled for a reaction. She's better with that now too but we have to be the ones to correct her for pushing him. Another example is the little dog running after the big dogs barking and nipping wagging it's tail the second it sees them at the park.
It's play aggression to run up to another dog, mainly strangers, and start playing ruff with no warning or work up to it. Some people play fight with friends or wrestle ect but it wouldn't be okay for a stranger or casual aquantince to run up to you and suddenly start doing it to you.
It's play agression to not take no for an answer. If the victom dog snaps at you or growls or says enough in some way and you just come right back for more.
They do have play fights and Quasi now just snaps at her when he's decided he's done. I don't like that but she does stop now when he does that. Since he started doing that he has trouble getting her to play sometimes because she doesn't know when he'll just snap and say enough but he couldn't get the point across before. He does get in trouble for that anyway. There are more exceptible ways to say I'm done and she'll get in trouble if she ignores them. Actualy he doesn't do it so much any more.
Play fighting is fine. Heck her favorite game is keep away and growling and snapping at us over a toy. That's fine too now that she knows her limits, with reminders. to ruff we stop. and if she's just played to long or we say stop she has too.
Hyzzie was a little mess she had just about every type of agression known to dog, play, food, possesion, territory, fear, redirrection, dominance A regular handful of fun.
Play agression is a real problem for anyone dealing with it. some play agression is linked to dominance and some is from being taken from mom to young and or not being taught what was to ruff by people and or other dogs at an apropriet age. Really it is linked to dominance to try and force another dog to play, while playing to ruff is mostly from not knowing better. Both are a problem, together it's worse.
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Originally Posted by bckrazy
bcKarzy is correct, in flyball you need a thick skin, if you have a thick skin then its actually a really fun sport with fantastic people, I supposed though it can be kind of offensive if you dont. flyball people refer to Happy as "that evil dog" and highly experinced people in my club were afraid of handling her I could take huge offence to that, but I dont when I hear things that people say about me or my dogs, I just laugh it off, because hey, they dont know me very well, and they only know my dog in one situation. I laugh it off and just go with the flow. there are a few true rotton apples, but most people are just fun loving, and while they can seem rather rude and nasty, they really not trying to be.
I thought the same as Kay did...I guess I misread too...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfamr
Zeke "bites" if when he plays, but what dog doesn't? He in no way hurt any dog. The guys are just nuts. They're way to perfect. Their dogs do AWESOME and they sit around after complaining how terrible they were...geez. I joined flyball for fun. I talked to other people who quit that club because it's too competitive and they just wanted to have fun. The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.
I think you need a thick skin for anything really, even day to day life...I just don't. I usually just leave the situation if it's too much as I get way to stressed and it's not worth it.
applesmom: yes I said rant, as in I needed to get it out as it was bothering me....I don't mind comments, I just don't want people going on about everything I did wrong in the situation, and how Zeke needs work...that is all very obvious. I don't need 5 people to tell me lol. I know no one was "yelling" but to me, it was hurtful. Intentional or not. All I wanted to talk about was the people and how they treated me, but I needed to explain the situation so people could see where I was coming from.
And I knew Zeke shouldn't cross, I knew the rules, but they kept putting me back up with other dogs...I didn't say oh please let me run with other dogs. THEY set up who runs with who. They know the dogs better than me to know who he could run with, knowing he may cross. They were horrible with helping me. I think one time I went away for a while and asked if someone could run Zeke if my dad took him. Like 4-5 people offered...and someone said I was just looking for them to train him?? Cause they ran him ONCE? Or maybe cause I kept asking for help with training him...I don't know.
The guy that hit Zeke never said one word to me the entire year + I was there. Not even "hi". My dad knows him and says he was always a bully. It really hurt me that everyone who "saw" him hitting my dog said "no, he didn't hit the dog" when I KNOW he did. Why would they lie about that?? Then people who I thought were friends just turned their backs on me. It really hurt me because I thought I fit in, and I thought I had "friends". They never liked me, nor did I ever fit in.
I think with any dog sport you need "thick skin" as mentioned before.
A similar incident happened with Pixie at agility practice; one of the other handlers was walking her spaniel when Pixie and I were out on the course, and the cocker started to bark at her. Pixie then started to run toward her (we're still working on training with distractions) and even though she responded to my recall, at the next trial the spaniel's owner announced that Pixie had "come after" her dog at practice and to "stay away." :rolleyes:
So ehh...we changed out of that class and are now ina different one. I'm not letting it get to me too much, but I know it can be hard. I'm alot like you, in that I'm very sensitive, anxious, and get hurt easily.
Honestly, I don't have "thick skin" either, Audrey. I'm very sensitive and I always think of other people's feelings... and it sucks when they completely disregard mine.
To me, dog sports are for fun, and when people stop making it fun and instead make it their own sick/wierd/obsessive way of making themselves feel like the best or living vicariously through their dogs, it ruins the fun for everyone. I don't feel it's fair to expect me OR you to just ignore and put up with rude, inconsiderate, self-righteous A-hats... what's important is how you feel about Flyball, because Zeke will feed off of your energy. If it stresses you out this much, IMHO, I would look into other dog sports that will make both you and Zeke happy. There are tons out there! Frisbee, Agility, Tracking, Obedience, Rally-O, etc.
first Happy doesnt bite when she plays, she doesnt playfight at all. and I am one of those super competitive folks thanks, and I know a lot of others personally. remeber there are 2 types of flyball people, and they have 2 types of DOGS. there are the pet people who get their pet dog in flyball just for fun, that would be you. then there are people like me who choose their dogs FOR flyball and they compete to win, our dogs have fun, and our dogs are allowed to just be dogs, but our dogs have an "I want to win" streak, dont get me wrong, these dogs and us handlers love the sport and we enjoy it just as much as the for fun people, but we play to win, both the handlers AND the dogs have the desire to win. know how many trainers said I should not do Flyball with Happy? every single one. every last one of them thought Happy would hate it and it would be to stressfull at that time I agree'd, Happpy diidnt seem to have any insterest in it, after a break from the sport she came to a parctice and when running against slow dog buddy of hers she got a taste of winning. and never looked back, now try telling her that she doesnt like flyball. no, what Happy hates is loosing, she has an extremly competitive streak, she loves to win, and she loves to show off doing it, she is like that is any sport, for example I was playing frisbee with her one day in a feild, when it was just me and her she did not even try, not once did she even bother to try catching it, then a person walking by the feild and paused to watch, suddenly Happy was leaping through the air, catching every single disc and doing funky flips while she was at it, when the guy left Happy stopped trying again...actually now that I descibe her she really is just like me lol I have a hard time competing with Misty though because she could not care less if she wins, its drives me batty lolQuote:
Zeke "bites" if when he plays, but what dog doesn't? He in no way hurt any dog. The guys are just nuts. They're way to perfect. Their dogs do AWESOME and they sit around after complaining how terrible they were...geez. I joined flyball for fun. I talked to other people who quit that club because it's too competitive and they just wanted to have fun. The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.
I was refering to the people in my own club. I don't know anyone else so I can't really say anything about it. To me, a dog should be allowed to play fight and be a dog...socialize with other dogs. I'm sure you do, but these people don't. They don't want any other dog to touch theirs. I personally feel bad for that because wild dogs play fight. I've seen TV shows were parents work their kids so hard that all they think about is training and nothing else. They say they like it, yes, but when given a break they admitted they didn't like to do it ALL the time, and they wanted to be kids. I'm not saying dogs are the same, but it's just my opinion. I'm not saying flyball is bad, don't do what you;re doing. It's just my opinion, like you had yours about the way I had Zeke in the club.
"pets" should be able to play too. I don't want to play to be competitive...I just want to have fun and enjoy my dog.
oh I know,I didnt just mean me, I meant out of all the people I personaly know who are very competitive, the dogs may be kept on a short leash and may appear uptight in practice and tourny situations, but that doesnt mean that dogs are not allowed to be dogs at home :)
there are clubs with just for fun teams for the people like you who are just in it for fun, though I am afraid you will have to go through a lot of false advertising to find the right one for you. there are a lot of clubs that SAY they are just for fun because they started that way, but they got bitten by the competitive bug and changed, yet still tell people they are "just for fun". hope you find a real just for fun club for you and Zeke :)
Reminds me of any spots that young kids play. The folks take it WAY to seriously & end up ruining all the fun :(
I know Zeke is a good boy, just a little too playful, but hes not a bad dog, hes doing what a young happy dog does, Play.
I wonder if you could train Zeke to act differently with a different kind of lead on.. like a harness. When he wears that, hes NOT to be sociable with other dogs.. but once its off, he can be all silly again.
I did that with my old dog. When his harness was on, he was working & had to ignore all people & all dogs.... when his halti was on, he could play & be silly.
It might help :D
If not, just remember Zeke is a wonderful fella no matter what those snobs say :D
I've never stopped my dogs from playing with others when they were pups. They made their own minds up when they got a bit older that they didn't want to play with other dogs. Just because a dog doesn't want to play with other dogs doesn't mean it's owner never allowed it to play.Quote:
The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.
Having Border collies, they are an obsessive breed who are bred to work, not go up to other dogs to play. Their job is the most important thing in their life and if they do flyball, then flyball is the most important thing in their life. They simply aren't interested in play fighting, they have better things to do and some of them can get quite narky if other playful dogs run up to them and jump on them and bite them in play.
My dogs would go completely nuts if another dog ran up to them and started biting them, even if it only meant to play.
Think about it, would a shepherd want a working dog who only wanted to go playfighting with other dogs? No, he wouldn't, he wants a dog that is dedicated to it's job and that is how Border collies have been bred and they are famous for this attribute. I know that not only Border Collies might show this tendancy.
Like humans, dogs have very varied personalities and this is the case no matter what type of training they get etc...
Not all dogs want to playfight. In fact, many older dogs don't want to playfight. It's more common for young dogs, pups and those not much more than pups, to want to run up and have playfights.
Many dogs might playfight with other dogs that they live with but not want to do it with strange dogs...which is, again, understandable.
Saying all of this, I agree that the club made a lot of mistakes and handled things in an inappropriate way etc...
I also agree that this club is probably not the right place for you if they are too competitive whilst you just want some relaxing fun. The club I went to was more about having fun than being all competitive.
I just wanted to clarify that you are mistaken in thinking those dogs don't want to play simply because their owners never allowed them to and that ALL dogs need to playfight when they don't.