separation anxiety???

Carrie, I fear that I need Daisy more than she needs me and probably that is the problem. You are right I don't treat her as a dog, I treat her as my best friend. At our age we are in declining health and playing with her and Perry in the morning while we have our coffee is very beneficial. Our family thinks we are a little bonkers, we have photos of both of them all over. We already did the Mom and Dad thing and then we did the Grandma and Grandpa thing now for the first time in forty years we are doing our own thing.
I know deep in my heart a dog should be made to obey commands, do the things a dog should do and then I think of all the dogs in the shelters and if only I could save and help them all. Since we can't, the next best thing is giving Daisy and Perry all the love and comfort we can. Carrie, I truly do respect your knowledge and I know you are right, but at this time in our life, we would rather spend our time spoiling them than correcting them. I really do appreciate your input and it does help us to understand them and we try. You have been so wonderful and patient with everybody, you are a gem.
Jackie

Jackie, I think the world of you, I really do but earlier in this discussion I mentioned how people struggle with the meaning of dominance. Never once in this discussion have I said that play is a bad thing - it is, in fact one of the fundamental ways a dog learns. I have not mentioned giving corrections - you shouldn't until you are seen as the leader and then only in extreme conditions. All need for corrections vanishes when the dog understands that you are the leader - all you need do is give the dog signals that it understands the meaning of.
I am not trying to stop anyone enjoying play, cuddles or time with their dog. All I am asking people to do is take pressure off the dog to be something it can not ever be. By doing this you can spend more time doing enjoyable things with a happier, more relaxed and unstressed dog. There is no forcing, no corrections - you have a dog that does what you ask of it because it wants to, does not have the feeling that it has to protect you or your house from everybody and is less likely to react badly to strangers, both canine and human. It is an animal that has only to enjoy life with you and has no worries. Not one negative word needs to be uttered nor any physical force used.

Jackie,
I can relate!!! We are doing the mom and dad thing now (two boys age 25 and 11) and look forward to the grandma and grandpa thing but I'm sure we will always be doing the doggie thing! :D :D :D I sometimes let my dogs get away with small things but in the big things, I make sure I win so they keep it in perspective who is boss. I love sleeping with the pups and constantly hear from the 11 year old "How come you get to sleep with them but they don't want to sleep with me?" What can I say..... they just love the mama person :)

Carrie, I understand what you are trying to say, you know I don't know how dogs think, so I use words probably not very professional like correction etc, I know I will never be the Alpha with Daisy however she considers Don the Alpha and listens to him and comes to him when he calls, so I think she is o.k. and relaxed. You are exactly right in your directions, except there are people like me who look at their dogs as babies and I don't think you could ever change us, but we try. :D :D :D
Jackie

Hi to Carrie, Aly, Rachel, and everyone else who has responded to my questions. I hope you are all still reading this thread. It was a couple days ago that I said that I felt there was a breakthrough with my dog Scout. Well.......tonight she just went pee on the carpet! I am frustated! I guess I have two questions: #1. Can I still feel things are on their way to definate improvement since she had a relapse? I mean, it has been several days now, which is better than what it has been. Is it 'normal' for there to be some old behavior for a period of time? I have only been being firm and more alpha for aprox. a week now. How long is it reasonable to expect this to take? Right now I feel like I/We have failed, and I must still be doing something wrong. Or worse yet, that my dog is being especially BAD.
#2. The other question is that she keeps going back to the same spot(s). I have been using an enzyme type order & stain remover, but I know that sometimes it takes several applications (on carpet) to work completely. Is it possible that she thinks that maybe it is okay in those spots, because she can maybe still 'smell' urine there even though we can't? I have used that stuff before with my cats and it worked wonders. Is there something better?
Maybe I just worry too much, or am expecting too much too soon. Set me straight if I need it! Thanks everyone.

You have done a sterling job to change your dog's view of life in such a short space of time. She is no longer in a total panic about you every time you leave her sight - just imagine what a difference to her life that must make.
One accident.....paaah! So what? (try washing the spot with biological washing powder that you would use in your clothes washer)
Your dog is not BAD - just in a bad way.
Can I also say that this has not got a time limit, when you have taken the pressure off your dog it is important that you don't let old habits return.
I'm not sure what you mean by being firmer with her. It is yourself you need to be firmer with, not the dog. You need to be sure that you have no eye contact with the dog when you leave or enter a room and don't speak to her until she has been relaxed and settled for a few minutes. Then she must do something for you before you give her any attention - a simple sit is enough and then you can show her how pleased you are to see her. If she doesn't do as you ask simply move away from her and ignore her for a little longer. You must be totally convincing and totally calm. Ignore her if she asks for your attention until she has been calm and relaxed for a few minutes - then ask her to sit before she gets any fuss. That is all - no shouting, no getting angry and no forcing. It is her choice and if you can do this she will choose to relax quicker each time.

You dog is not BAD. She just doesn't understand yet 100% what you expect of her. You are seeing progress so be excited and not frustrated! Make sure when you take the dog out that you give a command such as "Go Potty" and praise like crazy when she does. If she has an ACCIDENT in the house and you see her, then quickly escort her outside and give the command. Chances are she has relieved herself enough not to have to go again but she will make the connection if you give the command and praise her enough.

You do not correct, yell, or punish the dog, especially if you do not see her in the act. This just instills anxiety in her and frustration in you! Make sure you give her plenty of opportunity to please you by making sure she goes out about 20 minutes after each meal, immediately in the morning, before bedtime, and several other times during the day. If you set her up for success then your job will be much easier.

Keep up the good work!!!!

I agree. Try to give your dog a specific routine, a schedule so to speak. This includes feeding and outside for potty. Try to keep the times as consistant as possible. That is, if you normally get up at 6 am, then do it even if there are days when you could sleep late. (Get up, let the dog out and then go back to bed, if you want to.) If this were my dog, I would accompany her outside and watch to make sure that she "goes" when she is out and then give her praise when she does. I know, I know, it is a pain in the butt, but it is a big help. The main thing is you don't want her to establish a habit of going in the house. There have been a lot of changes in this dogs life. First who knows what she went through in her previous environment, then there was the trauma of the shelter where maybe she HAD to relieve herself in her cage, then you took her home but were going to work, and then you were there and home with her and taking her everywhere with you and then you started to leave her again at varying times which she couldn't predict. So be patient with her and do not expect miracles overnight, but have faith that you and she can come to grips with a routine that is going to make her comfortable and secure. I know you spend a lot of time and play with her, but try to make this at a specific time of the day, so she can count on it as part of her routine.

In regard to the area she has chosen to go in the house, is this an out of the way place, like a dining room that is rarely used? If it is, then make sure that you use that room more. Play with her there, maybe sit and do your reading. Some dogs choose out of the way spots in the house as they don't feel it is as much a area where they live.

Please have confidence that this is a problem that will get better with your dedication and efforts which will help Scout to understand and feel secure.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

Okay, thanks everyone- I feel much better now. I will also incorporate some of your suggestions into my routine. She was really good today! Left the neighbors dog on the other side of the fence alone (well, once she harrassed her), no potties on the carpet, and finally would 'shake' on command with NO treats to entice. She has known how to do that for awhile, but would only do it for treats before! She would look at my other hand to see if I had treats, and if not, would NOT shake. We are making progress!

Well, I'm about to add my two cents here. I am a believer in using crates for several types of discipline and when you just cannot trust the dog. Think of it as the dog's "room". Just as you would give a child his/her own room, the crate functions like that for the dog. I did not see what type of crate you are using and that could be a factor in what is happening. I seldom use the wire type of crates as they do not give the dog the "den" security that airline types do. The crate must be properly "fitted" to the dog as well. It should be long enough for the dog to lie down in with little extra room for "accidents"; one and a half times the adult body length is the standard we used at PetsMart.

I have a Jack Russell Terrier that goes into her crate during the day when I go to work and at night when I go to bed. Why? I don't trust her to not eat things or behave. She is fairly well adjusted otherwise. My JR mix almost never goes into a crate as she can be trusted to stay out of the trash, not potty on the floor, etc. She's also 12 years old! I have crated almost all my dogs as above until the age of about 1 year at which time they are usually more reliable, but have had a couple that could not be trusted not to get into the trash. We rarely had any problems about them going into their crates.

Obedience training will help establish you as the leader of the pack as she will learn to do as you say. That is part of what being the alpha is about. I am an advocate of postive reinforcement using treats to begin and working away from them. Also, one of the best things I got from Barbara Woodhouse's "No Bad Dogs" is the word "What". Use "What a good dog" or something similar when you praise her. Additionally, working on "tricks" adds to the image that the dog "has to do what you say". I had a dog that I taught several tricks to and then we ended up selling him to a show home, but everytime I say him, he would do all his tricks everytime I asked him. No treats, either! The trick to obedience work is using your "karate" voice. It must come from the diaphragm like a karate yell, but not as loud. Whenever you give her a command, feel it coming from the diaphragm and you will find that she will listen better. Yes, men have deeper voices and frequently will get a dog to obey better/faster. I saw that with several of my students. Firm up your voice and be CONSISTENT about commands. You and your hubby must use the same commands to mean the same thing all the time. Never put a question tone on the command, either. "Will you sit?" is less effective than "Sit!". Also, the more you can use one word commands, the quicker she will learn them.

Cleaning up after her, yes, use something like Simple Solution or Nature's Miracle and do not use a carpet cleaner that has ammonia in it. Guess what that smells like!

Bed - well, almost all mine have been allowed to sleep with me and we did not have "dominance" problems (and DO not have problems). Just now, the pup sleeps in her crate and the older dog sleeps wherever she likes. It's usually the cats that sleep with me (and one likes to sleep on top of me).

What it all boils down to is: consistent scheduling and commands and using the crate on an "as needed" basis. I have even crate trained my cats for purposes of transportation and when company comes that I prefer the cats not to get onto. Another note, whoever takes the dog to obedience class will become the "dominant" being in the dog's life. Be sure that you and your hubby both work with her on the obedience work and make sure you are working with her at least 15 minutes per day on the obedience. I read a book about obedience training that freaked me out. Can't recall the author, but she used to put her dogs on "long" downs for purposes of training. When I say "long" downs, I mean she advocated anywhere from one to three hours or more. That is not right from anyone's standpoint.

One last thing, I believe in the "stare-down". If your dog ever sits and stares at you, stare her down. In the wild, eye contact is a challenge and the one who looks away first is "submitting" to the "dominance" of the other. Oh, yeah, try to use a growly voice when "correcting" the dog. I use "no" on a long, drawn out, growly tone when I see the dog about to do something I won't approve of. I also use "Aaat" for some of the same reasons. All my dogs have learned what both terms mean and are really good at changing their minds when I use them. Well, my two cents turned into a dollar, but I hope some of this is helpful and hope no one of the other answerers is offended.

Ktreva, your dollar's worth of advice was a real bargain! I think your comments were all right on the mark! As a matter of fact, the shared wisdom in this particular topic is just terrific. So many good suggestions and so much encouragement. Yorkster I wish you much success with your little one. She sounds like a sweetheart. Keep giving us updates on her progress. :)

Thanks Pam! She is a sweetheart of a dog, and what a face she has, which is why I have caved-in before and allowed her to do things that she shouldn't. Now that I am being more consistant about her obedience, etc. she seems to be responding in a positive way. There IS light at the end of the tunnel!
Ktreva52, thank-you for some helpful tips. About her crate: it is one of those partially enclosed types like the airlines use. It is quite large too. Someone had suggested puttung a blanket over it, and playing music if we were going to be gone. I think I will try that tomorrow night.

I think the best thing about Ktreva's advice is knowing that she is BACK!! :D :D :D

Welcome Home, Chris!!!! :) You might have to reintroduce yourself. It has been a LONG time since we've "seen" you!!! :D

Yes, it is nice to hear from her, I believe it has been a long time.
Jackie

Welcome back, Chris! We missed you!