Barking

ok lol this is silly now! lol..Noone sticks up for me, noot the pt, if i was better at expressing myself i could explain it but i obviously can't. I e-mailed carrie and i hope she understands me a little more.

I know carrie is a wise person and knows a hell of a lot about animals, more them me i agree. It my age factor setting in again, just because i am younger then most people here, my advise means nothing and i have no clue what i'm talking about. Thats the ONLY thing that bothers me. My mom is the same way actually, she'll ask my bro for help with the puter before me even though i might know whats going on, he's older.

For being a stupid young person, I know a lot about animals, i've grown up around animals and have always have a passion to work with them. I took my dog to training, i got advise from everywhere, i took horseback riding as am pretty good at it. I helped out around the barn learning about them. And i worked at a vet clinic through school to help learn more.
A lot of ppl my age i know are out getting stoned or drinking till they have no damn brain cells left and doing drugs, and wouldnt dream of wasting time on pets. But thats not me, I always have a place for pets and always will, my furture job will involve animals, and you can ask any of my friends if i take good care of my pets or not?
Even though saying this it doesn't matter, because the youth in no world will measure up to the adult. 2 more yrs ppl! and i do know a lot about animals and am still learning! i just can't get you ppl to understand what i'm talking about! and i'd love for you to just come over and see the dog so you can say "ok, i see where shes coming from" but you ppl seem to just have one and only way of looking at things, and you tell me to open my mind..you can't say that when you don't yourself!

I think if i just say i'm doing it your way then atleast i'll be normal again, so yes i am.....if thats what you want to hear

Carrie: Please state your qualifactions, did you attend university and take classes on animal behavior and psychology? Work with a trainer or did you just get this out of a book. I know Audrey and it is a swat. It does not mean a wack or anything along that line. She just means that she knows what has the best result for Josie. You do not know Josie or Audrey, thus you cannot make the assumptions that you do. And Audrey came here for advice on what to do, she tried it failed, accept it. And dont ever ever assume that because someone swats a dog that they are a weak leader.

Lizbud: Where to begin, how about actually posting a reply instead of always agreeing to whatever carrie says. You may-as-well not post at all, but if you come up with an opinion, then feel free.

Caitlin

Audery! STOP!! LOL!!! I don't read anyone here calling you stupid! Only you are!! :D And, you know, there are LOTS of members your age here! As a matter of fact, Logan and I were just talking about how the younger ones are taking over! :D (And we're not that old!) And Audrey, it's not only young people disagreeing with older ones. Full grown adults disagree with each other as well, all the time! You're right! In two years you too will be in "our group," and you won't have the "excuse" of being a "kid" to fall back on when you and other disagree!!! That's just the way life is. I think you should stop putting yourself down, because no on else here is! We're all here to share ALL of our ideas. And I think, as I said before, that you are a very special young woman, with a lot of love to give to your animals, and that's the most important thing. I wasn't NOT sticking up for you, silly! I was responding to the comment made about Carrie by Jiz, who doesn't know her. You know how negatively I feel about hitting a dog because I already told you! And while I am not as knowledgeable about the science of animal behavior as others here, I have my own instintive feelings, emotional responses, as well as first hand experiences with my own dogs, that I base that decision upon. I told you about my abused husky rescue, Cody. Even the motion of a hand going up in the air and she yelps, cowers and belly crawls into a corner. She was hit throughout her young life, and I see the permanent harm it caused her, everyday. And I know, that is not the type of hitting you are talking about. But still, it is just feeling that there are so many other ways to deal with doggie issues than resorting to physical correction. Just give others... here, and in your life in general, a chance to share their thoughts, ideas and knowledge with you. None of us is too old to learn. Not me, for sure! Why not pick up a few books on dog training, talk to other dog guardians in your area, other trainers??? I know that since coming here to Pet Talk, I have learned so much about dealing with obedience issues with both my lab Star and Cody; all by listening to what others had to say and reflecting upon what their experiences have been with their dogs. Star is a lab, and she can certainly be a handful!! :D She is VERY independent, strong willed, intelligent and very demanding, IF I allow her to be! She definitely wants to assume the alpha role for the whole world!! If she had it her way, she would bark her head off everytime the wind blew, would eat every minute of the day, and until just recently, would wake me up at 2am with her ball in her mouth, plop it on my chest, and whine to go out to play. :rolleyes: If she misbehaves, it is MY fault. I have given her the wrong message, signals. I have a very sympathetic side, and my tendency is always to "give in" rather than reprimand. Well, finally, I was getting too tired, being woken up every night at 2am! And, she has to learn to eat at the appropriate times, or she'd be yelping at the pantry and frig all day long! After a lot of discussion with knowledgeable dog people and my vet, I finally accepted the fact that I had to be the boss!! And it didn't require physical reprimand. It was hard, but when she would start to bark to demand something, when she would yelp and bark to go out and play at 2am, I was told I HAD to just ignore her. She would stop when she realized that barking or begging was not going to get her what she wanted! And, after a week or two, blessed silence. And no, I certainly am not denying her anything or being cruel. Ask anyone here. No dog gets MORE atteniton, time and love than Star and Cody. But, guidelines do have to be set or your life will be chaos! Just think about what others have said. OK?? Oh, and on my refrigerator, I have printed the Dogs' Bill of Rights. Among those rights is this...."I have the right not to be made a prisoner of my own misbehavior." In other words, "teach me how to be good...not punnished." And, the quote in my signature below, for me, says it all!

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

YAY! Caitlin is my hero! lol anyway, she understands my points! SOMEONE IN THE WORLD does..

Thank you caitlin (hugs to your sweet dee, fat little kit and mr farret

Fair enough, Audrey. Sounds like this perhaps was an issue that never needed to be discussed afterall, since there doesn't seem to be a problem, and Audrey is comfortable with her decision. Good, case closed! :)

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

LOL Sandra, Yes thats what i mean, I said in everything i said, that I have went to trainers, and i have read tons and tons of books, i've watched shows and everything.

Your dog that was abused if different, and thats probably why your so against swatting, i wouldn't call it hitting. Have you ever once swatted you dog?

And i garrentee that my dogs also get the most love and attention, i try everything and anything and thats what i'm trying to get across..Maybe i'd be different if one of my dogs were abused, which i have to say there never were. I'm staying at my moms for the weekend and went to see my little girl and i never saw a happier dog! we played for a while and shes perfectly happy! shes always so happy.

I don't, everytime she does something swat her, only when like the other week, she wasn't getting attention cause i had ppl over, and she chewed my expensive dovet, i told her NO, and that was bad of her, then put her in the kitchen, and she would never even think of chewing something again. She doesn't coward in shame or pain or fear, if she was being abused she would never be bad. My other dog Rufus, is the BEST most well behaved dog anyone could ever want! he NEVER does anything bad! hes such a sweety!! He was trained by my mom seeing i was to young and i learned from her.

I was tought to never give up, this is why i'm so persistent. But seeing that everyone is getting so upset with me, i think sandra's right and i give up, she says something about me, that i shouldn't be angry on this board, and shes right, but i didn't mean it in a rude way, to me what liz and carrie are saying thats rude, so i will look at it your way, maybe you could try and look at it my way also, it's x-masish and noone should be fighting. So as long as ppl don't keep continueing this, i will stay away. Sandra is right and this discusssion should now be closed.

Sorry, i might not know much about training your way, but i certianly know lots about caring for pets and veterinary stuffs.


Carrie, sorry and thanks for your advise, i will try again on my next dog from the very start and maybe it will work on it.

Liz, nothing to say to you....

Okay, no need for anyone to be angry here. We all have differences of opinion, and everyone here, for the simple reason that we all love animals, has strong opinions on any given subject.

Don't give up! Not on us, and not on Josie! :)

First, be persistent. You mentioned way earlier in the thread that you need to work on that. Dogs and toddlers will pick up on any inconsitency in our behavior, and, as you said, Josie is smart. And stubborn. So you need to be MORE stubborn and make sure that you are being completely consistent with her in regard to her barking. Set the rules for her and follow them - and make sure anyone else around does, too. Try the method you want, and be completely consistent with ot for two weeks, then report back. I bet you - and Josie - will be doing much better.

(The most bark-problem-y dog I ever knew had owners who were completely inconsistent, and so the problem remained. The humans decided, I think, that it was easier for them to ignore the barking and decide not get upset than to change their own behavior. Sigh.)

Everyone take a deep breath and go hug a pet.

There, feel better?

Karen, thank you. I have stopped with it thats what i ment with my last post. I ment i give up on the posty thing, i will never give up on Jo, but your right i don't think i'm all to consistent, and i have admitted that before. I will try to keep it up, actually i have the last few days, just by saying shes good when shes comes in not barking and bad when she barks and put her in her corner (for you ppl no swat) but still my own way, we'll see how it goes

Hi Sleipnir, my name is Jackie and I have two Schnauzers Miss Daisy and Perry, and I haven't read these posts before. I have the same problem with our Perry, he jumps up on the couch and barks, we are trying to be consistent in telling him "No bark" and he seems to be doing better, I guess it takes a while. I can relate to your problems with the barking and we are working on it too.
Don't get upset with everybody giving their opinion, everyone is so intense in their love for their dogs sometimes it doesn't always come out the way they want it too.
I can tell how much you love Josie and she is so beautiful. Carrie is very smart, she is a dog behaviorist and is very serious in her advice, very knowledgeable, but if you think your way will work better I'm sure she would agree with you to try it. We are so happy to see you young people on here who love animals so much, it warms the heart. Good luck with Josie, I'm sure she will do well with your love and care.
Jackie

I am not sure what this is all about but I think it is about training a dog to NOT bark.

My story: I had a former boyfriend who had a sheep dog. The dog ALWAYS barked while riding in the car, to the point of total distraction. I mean one bark right after another. The owner tried everything, including wacking the dog, yelling at it... to make it stop. The owner went away for a holiday and I took his dog for a week. He was a sweet dog except for the darn barking. He was highly trained and was taught to walk next to you without a leash etc. etc. So he was a smart cookie.

I had seen a program on TV (U of PA vet school's program) about positive reinforcement = food for good behavior (and a nice voice) and a strong NO for bad behavior ....... for dogs that were agressive with children. To make a long story short, within one car ride, I had the dog NOT barking. I took a bag of Pepperidge Gold Fish and the dog wanted them more than barking. Eventurally, he got one gold fish per ride. Then none. He stopped barking. The end. Hope that story helps....

:D :D :D :)

Yes, thats something like what i am doing, she doesn't get treats cause then she'll think..hey i came in and was good?? TREAT NOW PLEASE!!! -cute face- I ween her off but shes always wanting food, i feel like i starve her osmetimes but the vets says shes getting more then enough lol. I could give it a try though, one thing i haven't tried yet. Thanks

I have replied to Audrey's email and explained my qualifications and experience so I hope that helps some.

I am not angry or mad with anyone.

I'm sure things will work out well and wish you luck.

Younger people on this site are a joy and add a great deal to the collective knowledge and experience here. (I'm not THAT old myself!!!!)

I'm sorry you felt nobody was listening. That was not the case, I assure you.

Please take a look at the subject on dog training methods - I hope you will see that I am not stuck on one way and one way only.

Lastly, my point about Darwin was to illustrate that the work on natural selection and genetic inheritance that he started is vitally important to understanding how animals that we keep as pets function, react and behave. I should of been clearer on that.

Carrie, you are much loved and respected by everyone here for your knowledge of animal behavior, please don't ever, ever, feel you have to explain your credentials or present them to anyone. This is just a case of immaturity. God knows we all need help here one time or another and we look to you.
Jackie

I'm sorry i was "immature", but please this is all behind us, i think we should just go on as if it never happened, it would probably be better if the whole suject would be deleted, ppl have come and just read the 1st part and get upset about it, but carrie had some good advise.
I didn't want you to have to tell me about your qualifications, the way you talk explains enough and it doesn't matter anyway, I know a lot about certain things with animals and i'm sure no one cares where i found out, i don't mean i don't care that you got all that education, not at all , i just mean that your advise is enough and you shouldn't have to explain yourself in that way unless you want.

Ok..that probably won't sound the way i wanted it to, i'm a terrible writer.

For anyone reading only some of this, it is over with and a few misunderstanding were exchanged thats all, I understand were carrie is coming from, i just didn't want ppl thinking i'm cruel with my dog, or my way isn't efficient to dogs in anyway. I DO understand carrie i think, maybe i don't, if thats the case i really would like to. I'm sure she understands mine, shes very smart, and i appresiate her advise, i must have taken it the wrong way or something......

I was looking for new ways, but i just wanted to see what ppl had to say about it, i wasn't sure i'd find anything but i wanted to try anyway, I will keep anyone who wants to know updated with Jo's barking, i'm sure she'll come around :D

It's x-masish and i didn't mean for harsh things to be flying around (well..ppl thinking there were, thats not what was ment)

Carrie: have you ever thought of writing a book on dog behavior? everyone here looks to you for advise, and it sees like it could be..bookish...lol! i guess it takes time for that though.. :p

Jackie incase you dont know this was sorted out. And what you put was offensive, that whole thing was more immature on your part than me and audrey. And we wanted to make sure that she knew what she was saying so i dont think that that makes us immature.

Audrey, thank you so much - that is very sweet of you.

Several people have approached me about writing a book, but you are soo right about the time thing!! I would need, at the very least, two or three months by a deserted beach with a chef, a cleaner and my own bar. Until I can get someone to agree to these conditions I really can't see it happening.....a shame, really!!!!!! (For me, anyway!)

maybe someday then ;]

I'm sorry Twirlbird and Sleipnir but my post was directed to and I was talking to Carrie.
Jackie

WOW! What a hot topic this has become! I am almost afraid to post my opinions but I also have some opinions on this.

First off, I think Carrie is only trying to get you to see the difference between human and canine thinking. We tend to love our animals immensely and sometimes think that they are capable of understanding on human terms but they can not! They are not human and should not be trained on human levels.

There have been several posts in the past on dogs barking and how to stop it. Personally, I think positive dog training is the best and most effective way to train a dog. I have been training dogs competitively for over 25 years and have used all the methods along the way. In using corrections such as swatting or popping a choke chain the dog is learning to look for a negative correction to it's behavior. If done correctly and the timing is 100% done in the correct time, this method can be effective. However, most people do not correct in a timely fashion so the dog understands what it is being corrected for. If your dog is barking and you call her to you and she doesn't come but stops barking, sniffs along the way, and eventually comes to you and then you correct, this is ineffective timing. Corrections need to be no more than 3 to 5 seconds after the behavior is displayed for the understanding to sink into the dogs thinking.

I use treats to get the dog to understand what I expect and then slowly wean them off. If you are afraid of giving too many treats, then use the dogs regular dinner kibble and use it as a treat.

I am attaching the links to the other posts that have this discussion so hopefully something there will be helpful.

Excessive barking

Why dogs bark

Controlled barking

Max N Petey's story

I hope some of these threads give you the information you are looking for.

Positive reinforcement works more effectively and quickly than any other method I have used.

Good Luck! :D

Actually, folks, any contentiousness has dissapated. Communication is sometimes difficult with the typed word, but we do try to keep things happy here. Audrey and Carrie are not angry with each other and they now understand each other better, and I think that's a good thing.

So no squabbling on their behalf, okay?

I agree, everything is settled now, and it might be best just to leave it here. I'm pleased to say that when josie went for her pee and saw her fav. little doggie friend running around, she gave off one bark then stopped instead of her usuall howl. I'm trying something kind of my way but also a little of what carrie said. So i will keep up this way for a while to see how it turns out. So far i think its starting to get to her :] it's still my way, but just a little of what carrie has said about the dog language, and understanding your dog. I watch for her behavior and whatever, if she doesn't bark she comes in to happy me and a treat (her fav thing of all time!) if not then i'm not happy and no treat :(..but positvily training her.

Sleipnir - now that everything has cool off a bit :D :D I must say I've learned a lot by the previous postings. I do agree with Carrie's way a lot and especially with Dixie's idea of positive dog training. Like I said before I don't want my little Tess to think that my hands are to be feared or at all associated with her being bad. I choose to ignore the bad behavior or respond with a firm NO and treat the good behavior - I'll keep ya posted down the line to see if this works - right now nothing really works, she's just a baby but we'll see :D :D

Purrley, goodluck. Your dog is also little, and more fragile...lol..josie is pretty big and pure muscle (not saying your dog isn't..just small and young :D) Thats why she gets a swat, she doesn't take my hand as something bad. It must just be something ppl here to, cause i dont know anyone who doesn't, and i guess its diff where you ppl live :]

Audrey, you go girl!!!

Fantastic! I'm so glad you've found a way that works for you both, well done.

It sounds like an ideal method, write it down somewhere - you will be writing your own book one day, that is not a joke, I'm sure of it. You have passion and compassion, love and intense interest in what you are doing.

Keep us posted!

awww thanks :]