Actually, it's both.Quote:
Originally Posted by finn's mom
I admit I was a bit rude, but this just hit a nerve. It's something I'm very passionate about.
I apologize for offending anyone.
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Actually, it's both.Quote:
Originally Posted by finn's mom
I admit I was a bit rude, but this just hit a nerve. It's something I'm very passionate about.
I apologize for offending anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
As for why, I know the families I've had experience with have said it's because they don't agree with birth control, and, if God is allowing them to have children, they will continue to do so. My friend's brother has six kids, and, they're going to have more. She just miscarried what would have been their seventh, and, their reason for having so many is because that's what they feel like is the right thing to do. And, I guess a mom homeschooling different ages wouldn't be a lot different than WAY back in the day when all grades met in the one room school house. I don't know, I personally wouldn't do it, but, it's done, and, just as some publicly schooled children excel and others fail, I imagine the rate of success is just as diverse in home school. I don't know the statistics, but, I've seen it work for some kids and not for others. And, for what they get out of it, again...I think the answer to that is so personal and probably different even for each of their kids. I don't think a question like that can really be answered here.
Cool. I mostly had an issue with you assuming they were on welfare. ;) We just don't know. It doesn't seem like they have money woes, but, that's just a guess. Apology accepted. I wasn't so much offended, though, as I was just like...whoa.Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveReptiles
I think in our society there are many women now that have no desire to have children (the smart ones anyway :D ) anyhow I think it balances out the families that are large. I certainly would not want it to be dicated to me how many children I can have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseysmom
I was kinda thinking that, too, but, couldn't think of how to word it. I don't know how much it balances out really, but, I would think there are plenty of people that don't have children to at least counter the ones that have many to some extent. Especially nowadays, it's just not necessarily in people's plans all the time like it used to be, having children.
If you watch the video, completely, on CNN, you certainly can't walk away thinking that these folks are on any kind of welfare at all!!! They are building a 7000 sq ft house. Welfare does NOT afford this kind of thing and I happen to believe that they are doing something that the rest of us could learn from about budgeting, putting responsibility on our kids, etc. Although I could not function as a homeschooler to one, let alone 16, I think these folks definitely have "got it together" as a family unit. I don't think one dime of my tax money is going to support them after reading what I have, for sure.
Logan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveReptiles
It's okay, apology accepted. Just remember next time that it is better to express yourself calmly and civilly when posting on Pet Talk.
Most people rarely seem to have more then two children anyways, and those two will fill your, and your partners place in the population when you die.Quote:
I think in our society there are many women now that have no desire to have children (the smart ones anyway ) anyhow I think it balances out the families that are large.
Whew! I'm so slow in my response that I was in General and my post ended up in the Dog House!!!! :o I watched the CNN video, twice, to make sure I was making a proper point.
I know that having 3 kids is expensive. Would LOVE to know what this man does for a living to afford 16! They're doing something right, for sure. One thing I remember from the Today Show this morning is that their grocery bill is in excess of $2000 per month! :eek:
This post should not be hostile. It is one family's choice, their decision, and it's making the news because it is interesting news. I like it when special interest news stories like this one hit the airwaves to balance all the other negative stuff that we endure when we watch the news.
I am a Fox News person and watch Fox and Friends in the morning, when I'm getting ready for work. E. D. Hill has 8 kids......is she wrong? I don't think so. I wouldn't want to walk in her shoes, but good for her!
I feel the same way about the Duggan family. Good for them! Those children will grow up to be responsible, good adults if what we're hearing is correct.
Logan (who thinks she is "done" with this discussion)
I do quibble with the "we don't pay for them." We do. Higher medical insurance premiums....they pay the same family rate as a family with one child - just for an example. "No man is an island" and we support each other...through taxes, insurance, etc in many, many ways!
That said...it is their business. I just feel sorry for the children and cannot find it admirable.
It mentioned something in the article about the father being in Real Estate so I doubt money is an issue.
I can't judge or say if the kids are happy or not. It seems like it from thier photos though.
Has any of the programs about them interviewed the older kids? I wonder what they have to say.
I wouldn't want 16 kids, but if they are all happy, well adjusted and well cared for I can't see why people need to judge them.
I wonder how much money it would cost to send 16 children to college?
Well, using those numbers as an average, not counting for inflation...Quote:
For the 2004/2005 academic year, the average annual cost of a four-year public college is $14,640 and the average annual cost of a four-year private college is $30,295. (Source: The College Board's Trends in College Pricing Report 2004.) The total figures include five expense items: tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies, transportation, and personal expenses
Public College: $234,320
Private College: $484,720
Thats quite a bit of money!
The couple with 16 kids are NOT on welfare. Although some tax dollars may have went towards them considering that the guy was a Senator Representative in his state. :eek: He's going to run again this year after losing last years election. So is it better to have paid the guy's salary with our tax dollars to represent the people of his state instead of supporting him with the welfare dollars of the state? :cool: :rolleyes:
Remember that 2 of them are sets of twins. One fraternal and one identical. That accounts for 4 of the children there alone. The couple also did not start having children until 4 years into their marriage! :eek: Then they had children about every 2 years between. The usual number people suggest separating children's births.
They have been working on building their 7000 square foot home for 2 years now. The bedrooms are going to be "dormitory" style. So the bedrooms are going to be shared. None of the children are "special needs" and are all healthy. Their living conditions and education is better than what most children receive. They are learning to work together and take care of one another which is what any body could ask of their children. ;)
I personally wouldn't want that many kids but I don't say that someone shouldn't. This isn't a case of having children for the sake of having children or getting a bigger welfare check. This is a situation where there is a loving home environment and each birth is treated like a miracle and blessing. I am almost jealous. ;)
Besides the woman who had the most children had 53 children!!! She lives in South America and is soo dazed that she no longer recognizes most of the kids! She's had several sets of twins and triplets which accounts for the large number. I think she's only given birth 25 times in all. :eek: So 16 isn't so bad after all!!! :cool:
If they were pet owners, wonder if they would be considered hoarders?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukedogsmom
LOL :D Good question Valerie..... :D
A LOT! For sure, Liz, but as many financial consultants will tell you these days, we need to put more responsibility on the child to earn their college education rather than providing it anyway.......I think there is a happy medium in there, somewhere. Just my 2 cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbud
I dont think ill have one kid.. let alone 16 of them.
as if the world isnt over populated enough as it is. ;)
WOW!! 16 kids!! I cannot even imagine!!
MHO, I think giving birth to 16 children is a bit over the top...we do have an overpopulation problem in this world. I do agree that it is their business and take no issue with them doing what they want with their lives. And I understand the birth control issue that Finn's Mom brought up also. I don't know the solution...except stop having sex and start adopting! :D:D;)
There are thousands,if not millions of children that need homes. I honestly haven't heard much about this family,just what I saw on TV tonight and what I have read here BUT I did hear the father say that they love children and love raising them. They can do that by adopting as well as they can by reproducing....sometines I think the "self-reproduction" thing is overrated and self-centered...the world doesn't necessarily need another "me" or even another person with my "bloodlines." The world needs to care for the children that need homes and love and TLC and raise them as good, kind, caring, productive members of society. I'm not all that wonderful that I think there needs to be another one of "me" living 200 years from now!! LOL!! ;)
However, that adoption issue brings back up the birth control issue and if they are against it then I don't know....? I read an article in Reader's Digest a month or 2 ago about a family that had 25 children, 3 natural and 22 adopted. All the adopted children had some form of disability, most had Down's symdrome and some had cerebal palsy and a few others had some other form of disability. (I can't remember exactly) So that family is raising even MORE children than this family is, the difference being that most of theirs were adopted. I guess if this family had stopped after 3 there would be room in their home and hearts for 13 needy children...That is just how I see it. I am a huge advocate of adoption in both pets and humans. However, I am also a woman of child-bearing age who does not have any children of her own so, in a way, I am speaking out of turn as I am not in their, or any parent's shoes.
Re: college education costs...I think that the ~$30,000 cost was a PER YEAR cost, not a 4 year cost. So that's $120,000 per child x 16. (I can't even attempt to to the math!! ;))
Simply mind-boggling!! And Logan, I agree with you to some extent that it is a good idea to have the child contribute to their own college education and that it is in no way entirely the parent's responsibility. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out the way it was intended, to teach responsibility and the value of money and education to your children. I paid for most of my own bachelor's degree, my parents paid what they could and sent me spending money ($20/month 10 yrs ago that was a GOLD MINE!!! :D) I also worked on campus while I was in college. I still left school with over $30,000 in student loans which is relatively mild compared to today's figures or what people with advanced degrees are paying but keep in mind,I went to a NY state school, not a private school. My first student loan payment 9 months after I graduated, was more than my paycheck for the entire month of work at my first job!!!!!!!!!! And I had a fairly decent job, comparable with other college grads at the time! I had to get my payments reduced time and time again until my pay caught up with the monthly payment they were expecting from me. Even now, I will easily be paying them for another 20 years. AND, because of those student loans, I lived with my parents until I was 27 years old because I could barely afford the 6 yr old used car I bought to get to work much less my own place to live!! Compared to my best friend whose parents were able to afford to pay 100% of her private school education as well as give her a used car when she graduated. She was living on her own at 22 and just built her own home whereas I hae little to no savings and am still renting. (I love her to death and maybe jealous but I am not bitter, I ADORE my parents and wouldn't change a thing, I'm just making a point.) I guess the parents will still get the "costs" of the education, either on the front or the back side...(That sounds funny!!:D) But you get my point I think...so I will shut up now... :)
When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, there were two competing families both with the last name "Mahony/Mahoney". Both lived within 3 blocks of each other, and when I left home at 16, one family had 17 kids, and the other family was 'baking' an 18th! :eek:I cannot fathom the chaos all those kids could create, but always found it quite amusing. As long as a family can financially support and educate their kids, and teach them all to be respectable members of society, I don't personally have a problem with that. It's ones that spew out dispicable brats that they think are perfect, and rely on taxpayers $$$ to support them....that gets me. :rolleyes: They're the reason our jails are filled to capacity, and then some. :rolleyes: It all boils down to personal choice, and I am happy to be mother to many! Animals :D
I think QSA summed it up nicely, it is about personal choice, and yes if they are well cared for and not on welfare, what the heck has it to do with anyone, we are all entitled to our opinions, there are people out there who would consider it ludicrous to own a large group of pets like some of our wonderful Pters do, but as long as the owner takes good care of them it is none of our business.
I know there are welfare mothers out there and here using the system, but I get a little peeved at all the animosity towards solo parents out there,for those who sit comfortably in their two parent families feeling superior, there is no guarantee your marriage will stay together forever , that your partner won't do a runner and you could all of a sudden find yourself in a position to rely on welfare until you get on your feet again, one should not judge so harshly until you have walked in those shoes.
My only concern was just how much individual attention these kids get, It is hard enough when you have two dividing your time between them, your husband, pets, parents whatever, however from what everyone has said they are well-adjusted young people, who knows they may actually be better off than coming from a small family.
I certainly would hate to have a family that large, but if they are happy in doing so, then it is fine with me.
At least they're not abusing the system. But she's probably abusing hers. She won't be so thankful when her insides fall out. But, hey! If they're capable of keeping their life in control, in all aspects, Bless them!
Adoption is a truely wonderful thing, but its not for all people. I don't think you can compare the adoption of pets, to the adoption of people. They are on two hugely different levels. Reproduction is not overrated or self-centered, its basic instinct. :pQuote:
There are thousands,if not millions of children that need homes. I honestly haven't heard much about this family,just what I saw on TV tonight and what I have read here BUT I did hear the father say that they love children and love raising them. They can do that by adopting as well as they can by reproducing....sometines I think the "self-reproduction" thing is overrated and self-centered...the world doesn't necessarily need another "me" or even another person with my "bloodlines." The world needs to care for the children that need homes and love and TLC and raise them as good, kind, caring, productive members of society. I'm not all that wonderful that I think there needs to be another one of "me" living 200 years from now!! LOL!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9karen
Karen, I had that same thought but didn't know how to put it. :D Oh my,
I'd like to see her interviewed at say, age 50. :D
I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere Logan. :) Maybe I'm old school,Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan
but I've always thought parents should be thinking & saving for college when
the children are still in diapers.I've always been willing to help with at least the first year or two. Those first years are sometimes the hardest for young
people to adjust to new places, setting good study habits, etc.
Wow, has this thread progressed! LOL
Ok, from the way I see things (in my own weird little way) I think that in all likelihood, thoe kids are getting as much, if not MORE attention than the average Amrican kid nowadays. From the religious folks in my area, I know of a few with 10,11, 12 kids. They all are GREAT kids. Honest, polite, helpful. The family means a lot to them, and they rely heavily on each other. Opposed to the typical American family with our 2 children, these families with 12 kids get by remarkably well. They rely on dad as the primary money maker, with mom taking in sewing, making crafts, babysitting, etc to bring in additional income. You'd be amazed at how finaincially stable they are. One family I know of through my FIL currently has 4 kids in college, 6 in private school (Mennonite day school... not some fancy private boarding school or anything! :p) and they pay CASH for everything. No student loans for the kids at all. Dad owns a small store, mom stays at home and makes jellies to sell at craft shows and such.
Thee religious families with a dozen kids are also are odd... in that they SPEND TIME TOGETHER! No cell phones, no computer games, head buried under a Walkman, no ten hour tv marathons. Mom and dad are there when you need them - instead of half listening instead of dividing their attention between cooking dinner, the scintilating soap opera, and the laundry. Mom has HELP folding the laundry, HELP peeling the carrots for dinner. OMG.... ask any of my kids or their friend to make dinner, you might get them to open a can of corn. Its a completely diffrent mind set and lifestyle. Their priorities are a bit different than you or I. Family is top priority. Everything else is non-existant to them.
Sometimes I think we could all take a lesson from them -- in how they relate to each other and separate the outside "noise" from their lives. We all list things as what we "need" - new computer, an ipod, a new couch. They list NECESSITIES... shoes, pants, coat, food. They get the couch when it falls apart and there's a NEED for it. Until then, they happily exist thanking God they even HAVE whatever it is they have.
All that said, I myself can't see having 16 children. My three are plenty, thank you ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by catnapper
That's what I was thinking, too. Every large family I've ever known has spent more time together as an entire family than the families with two kids. The kids help with everything, and, do it willingly. They help with the younger kids, they help with the chores, all of it. And, what you were saying about not having their faces buried in walkmans or tvs or computers, too...I was thinking that, too. My friend's brother's family is like that, they don't even have a television. They make most of their toys. Brian's brother makes almost all of their clothes, the mother makes all their food food from scratch, everything they eat is something they've grown. She makes their bread from grain from their own property. I mean, it's tremendous what they do for eachother, and, how well behaved and polite these kids are. He probably spends more quality time with his kids than most dads I know with one or two kids. I've always been amazed at large families, but, I definitely see how it can be a much better situation sometimes than the way a lot of smaller families operate. There was a family of many biological and adopted kids that I knew in Germany...I think there were eleven kids total, and, last I heard they were all either in college or already graduated. And, I know the several I went to school with were some of the nicest, most compassionate people I'd ever met.
I wonder what religious denomination they are?
I would say the type that don't believe in birth control. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
To each there own but the older one's miss out because there raising the younger ones. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Den Anne Pen
Miss out on what? I know I can only go on the few families I've known, and, not on this particular family because I don't know the details of their situation...but, the older kids in the large families I knew moved out of the home almost right out of either high school or finishing home schooling and straight into dorms for college. They were usually no older than 18, they didn't miss out on much that was legal, anyway. ;) Yeah, they did help a lot with the home and the family, but, they still had social lives (mostly church related, but, they did go to dances and out with kids of the same and opposite sexes). If the publicly schooled ones wanted to participate in extracurricular activities, they could. The only things I can think of that they missed out on were the things that they shouldn't have been involved with in the first place! :D
WAAAAAAAAAAY to crowded for me, thank you very much!!! As long as THEY can support them all, I say, to each his own. It's the ones that keep popping babies out that expect US to support them that really piss me off!!
*dialing phone..."Hellow Guinness Book of Records???"*
What did families of long ago do with so many children? Some I know had more children than that and did not depend on welfare!
Me, I could not deal with that many children, I had three, and can't keep their names straight, but I will not say anything bad against these people at all. It is their decision to do what they want! Sounds like they are supporting their children and asking for no help doing it.
Willie :)
Having seen the program on TLC about this family, what you have said describes them exactly. Many of us could learn something from watching how this family functions. They definitely are self supporting financially.Quote:
Originally Posted by catnapper
The one concern I had was that with the home schooling and church activities being within a real limited group (their church meets in their home and consists of their family and one or two others) the kids are in some respects being sheltered from the *real world*, and I wonder how prepared they will be in dealing with the outside world.
And I thought coming from a family of 7 was a lot!! :eek: I once had a friend in high school who came from a family of 12! Personally, I love coming from a big family. And I even wish it was bigger! We may not of had a lot growing up, but we had eachother and that's worth all the tea in China.
:)
AMEN to that!!!Quote:
We may not of had a lot growing up, but we had eachother and that's worth all the tea in China.
Logan, I think I can answer a few of your questions...saw several programs regarding the family.
The father was a state rep. at one time and he is or was, in insurance sales. Apparently he and his wife had some serious financial difficulties in the past, way into debt, bankruptcy, then finally decided to take control of their finances. They attended some credit managment seminars, financial counseling and apparently have their act together now!
The mother said that they shop for clothes at thrift shops, stating that she will pay 50 cents for a pair of childrens' shoes that others pay 50.00 dollars for and then will hand down outgrown items of clothing to the younger ones. They also shop for the majority of their houshold goods, furnishings, at yard sales and such. I heard about the home they are building, large but simple. She said the kids will be roomed in seperate boy and girl "dorms." I'm not sure what building/housing costs are in their area of the country, perhaps less than in the Northeast. A house that size would cost a fortune to build here, forget about the cost of the land!:D And it's not totally inconceivable that they are receiving some help from family; a good thing! They did say they will be purchasing 4 commercial washers and dryers, commercial frig and stove, etc. and that certanly is costly!
I have to say that that the children were precious on TV, so polite and well mannered and seemingly very well adjusted...and articulate! The mother said that each child is buddied with a younger child, to help the younger sibling with dressing, bathing, homework; a mentor of sorts. This provides an invaluable life lesson in responsibity, sharing for sure! But like Rachel, I do worry about their relative isolation from the "outside world," but perhaps the parents are compensating for that in ways other than school, church, etc.
If this is the path they have chosen for lives and are able to adequately provide for their children, I say God bless them! And each child is a blessing yes, but for me at least, the blessing is not born of the birthing alone. With so many homeless children in need of a loving family, I would hope that perhaps (considering their apparent financial solvency) they might considering opening up their hearts and home to a homeless child in need. I remember seeing a few programs in the past on families with 10, 15, 20 children, half of whom were adopted, many with physical handicaps, disabilities. Like this family, they were amazing!
It's hard for me to imagine being pregnant 14 of the past16 years!:eek: And while the mother's fortitude is certainly commendable, it is really not the best course for her to pursue continued, uninterrupted pregnancies year after year, from a health perspective, especially as she's into her late thirties now. Pregnancy definitely takes it's toll on the body!
Logan, E.D. Hill does "have" 8 children, but hers is a blended family. As I've heard her tell it, both she and her current husband came into the relationship with children from previous marriages. I think she had 3 children with this husband:) Still, a handful! lol
And I can barely keep my dog's names straight! :eek:
The only thing that saddens me is that at what point does she decide 'enough is enough?' When does she start thinking of the kids and not herself? And I'm not talking about the kids not being provided for or loved.
But she will not live forever. When she passes away, how old will the youngest child be? 1 year? 2? 5 or 10?
Sure, to lose a parent for any of the children would be awful, but to lose a parent you hardly get to know. To me, that's selfish on the parents part.
I don't understand. She is only 39...a lot of people have their FIRST child at that age. Anyone can die at any age...none of us have any guarantee as to how long we will live. She could very possibly raise all of her children and still be alive and healthy when the youngest is an adult. In fact...its worse if someone has 2 children...and say, the mother dies when the children are 1, 2, 3, 5, 10?? Who would take care of THEM? These kids have so many older siblings to love and care for them if God forbid, anything ever happens to the parents. None of us have any guarantee on how long we will live. You can't guarantee being alive long enough to raise 1 child. How would anyone know??? If that's a reason for her to not have all those children...well...that could be anyone's reason to not have children at all. Death is a part of life...none of us will stay on this Earth forever. I can't comprehend how that could be a reason for her to not have kids. I don't even think she is thinking of herself in this. I mean...how could it possibly be fun to remain pregnant almost 16 years in a row? I bet she's forgotten how it feels to NOT be pregnant by now. Again, it is her choice. If they're happy with it, and if the kids are all happy and well taken care of, none of us should have a problem with it. Its something *I* would never do, but everyone has their own choice in this world, especially when it comes to the amount of children they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanth
I didn't say she shouldn't have kids. And I don't doubt that she's still young and able at the age of 39. It's just that she says she wants more. What if she's able to have more at the age of 80? Should she? Wouldn't she want to see that child grow up?
Why should the other children who are only children themselves have to bear the responsiblity of raising their siblings?
How is that fair to them? How can they go out and meet people and have a social life if they are playing 'mom and dad'?
Yes, accidents happen. People die young and unfairly. I'm simply wondering if she knows when enough is enough.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It's just common sense. She's been blessed with 16 children. You'd think she'd count her blessings and be content in raising them.
I would rather be covered in honey and staked naked on a red ant hill than have that many kids. Actually ... I would rather go through just about ANYthing than have that many kids! OMG.
My ex's great-grandma and grandpa had twenty-three kids. Seriously. And she lived to be over 100 years old ... and was just about the meanest little woman I've ever met. Go figure ....
And those names. PUH-leeeeese. How cornball can you get??? Jinger?!?!?!? :rolleyes:
But seriously ... as long as they are paying for their upbringing, and not depending on the welfare system (our tax dollars!) to foot the bill ... than it is NO one's business but theirs. Have two dozen kids or have none, as long as you pay for it yourself.