Prong collars or chokers?

Of the two collars, I would (and do) use the prong collar. I used
it for Buddy & it was a godsend.We were able to go on walks
with me safely in control of him. He was a terrible puller.Bud was
trained using the old fashioned methods of the day with the
choke collar & pops of the leash. I was awful at giving corrections
cause I couldn't bear to hurt him.:o Switching to the prong collar
when very smoothly & was only used for long walks.

I am a failure at dog walking I guess, cause Smokey & Maggie
both use the prong collar with modifications. I had to remove a
few links & put the rubber tips on for them. I think the choke
collar is o.k. if it works for you & your dog AND the person knows
the correct way to loop the chain. It should relax the choke when
the dog is not pulling it.

I dont use either. . they aren't HORRIBLE when they're used correctly, but it seems like a band-aid to me. I would not go to a trainer that forces you to use prong or choke chains :rolleyes:. . she sounds really annoying and uneducated. Basically, she probably want everyone to put chokers on their dogs to make her job easier! In the long-run, training with a flat or rolled leather collar means youre voice and body language controls the dog, not a pinching or throat-restricting collar. Our trainers are the opposite, they don't allow prong collar, chokers, haltis or harnesses in class. . and all of the dogs that are past the first three or four classes never act up, pull, run away, or ignore their owners, they're all really good pups without anything but rolled/flat leather collars.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by aly
I'll be the first to admit that the methods I teach take a little longer than using a prong. But if you think about it, using a choke/prong isn't really *training*. It is a physical correction, but does it really teach the dog what the desired behavior is? I guess that is an arguable point, because with a prong, you will get a dog walking by your side. However, I just can't fathom how "popping" the dog and telling them "no" constantly helps your relationship and causes no harm to their mental well-being.

---

There is so much I want to respond to in this thread but lack of time will limit me. :( I would like to say that what Aly said hits the nail on the head! Using chokes and prongs is nothing more than a physical correction. Your dog may learn what not to do in order to avoid a pop again but it is not learning the desired behavior for doing it right from the start. Let me use an analagy. I keep drawing a circle but the teacher wants me to draw a square. When I draw a circle I get a pop (physical correction that is meant to hurt or jar my attention). Do I know yet that the teacher wants me to draw a square? No... so I draw another circle and the same thing keeps happening. Before long, I'm either going to do one of two things... not draw anything or try a different shape. Only a fool would keep doing something that causes pain.

Now lets try the same analagy a little different. The trainer wants me to draw a square and shows me that I'm suppose to draw a square. I draw a circle.... no reward and no physical correction. She shows me again how to draw a circle. This time I draw a square. She makes a instant noise and immediately something good happens to me (usually a treat but some other kind of reward could be used). WoW! I THINK that was great... let's try it again. OK.. I draw another circle... nothing happens BUT when I do the square that is what gets me the reward and makes the teacher happy... I'll think I'll continue to draw squares when she shows me that's what she wants.

Clicker training is the best way to shape a dogs behavior because the sound the clicker makes is constant and the dog learns to listen for it. No matter if you use the same "verbal" praise everytime the dog does something, it will be different because of your pitch in your voice. Having that constant tone is what makes clicker training so wonderful!

You can learn a lot by going to clickertraining.com. That website gives you the basics of training and how to shape a desired behavior. I feel some trainers do not like clicker training because it forces the dog to think and it forces the trainer to be creative.

The bottom line is that the dog determines it's rewards for doing desired behaviors instead of trying to figure out how to stop the next painful correction. I've done both and can testify that once you do clicker training and see the difference it makes in the dogs attitude, you will never use another training method. Do they all get results.... YES.... but at a price I am not willing to put on my dogs ever again. Each person has to figure out what works for them though. Clicker training and positive training methods in general just work for me!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bckrazy
Our trainers are the opposite, they don't allow prong collar, chokers, haltis or harnesses in class. . and all of the dogs that are past the first three or four classes never act up, pull, run away, or ignore their owners, they're all really good pups without anything but rolled/flat leather collars.

---

The first thing I tell people when they enroll in an obedience class is that only flat buckle collars are allowed. On the first class we teach puppy management. That is where the dog is on a short lead and the handler steps on it to keep the dog in a down position. There are dogs that fight this (of course my Dusty did) but it's more of an embarrasement thing than a painful thing because they only have flat buckle collars on. The dog is not in control and it wants to be so it puts up a fuss. It's hard for some handlers because they are not alpha over their dogs. However, after the first night we usually don't have any problems. This enables me to teach all the students instead of having a dog out of control distracting from the class. This is about as harsh as my classes get. From there is it all positive.

The misconception I think some of you may be thinking about positive training is that you never give your dog corrections. That is the furthest thing from the truth. You do give your dog corrections but in non painful and positive ways. I use the UTT OHHH verbal and break out of the teaching position. Then we go back to step one and start again. Pretty soon the dog learns that wasn't the right thing so Let's try again! Before long the dogs catches on (the light bulb goes off) and the dog has a good understanding of what is expected. The next thing is to proof the behavior to ensure the dog will do it under all circumstances. That's a whole different post. Basically, the best site to check out information on clicker training is clickertraining.com with Karen Pryor, the originator of clicker training.

I don't think there is one sure fire method that always works without fail for every dog in every situation. I disagree that the prong (as long as it is used correctly), is painful. It mainly prevents pulling from happening in the first place, at least in my experience, the same as a halti does. I do not really agree with popping it the way you would a slip collar in order to give a correction. I don't use it for training, I use it as a band-aid/insurance only when I'm walking Tommy on a very busy street with traffic because he is prone to bolting if something startles him. He is stronger than me, and I'd rather have him wear a prong than yank out of my grasp and bolt into oncoming traffic when something startling happens. As I've mentioned before, I used to use a gentle leader (for 2 years), but he was miserable every time, no matter how many treats I gave him, how often he was exposed to it. He'd have his tail tucked the entire walk because he hated that thing on his face. I decided to try the prong for his sake, not mine, as I would have preferred to stay with the leader but I couldn't stand his misery with it.

As I mentioned, I don't train with it, training sessions are pretty much 100% positive reinforcement. I don't even say the word "no" while training. I completely ignore undesirable behavior, or give a passive consequence such as halting the walk until they stop and sit down, then praising and continuing.

Negative reinforcement is not bad reinforcement in the sense that you might be viewing it (talking to Audrey here :)), it simply means giving a "negative" consequence that the dog will want to avoid, i.e. saying no, giving a correction, etc. In that light, I suppose stopping the walk until they stop pulling and sit is sort of a negative reinforcement. It's something the dog will want to avoid, but it seems to me most trainers don't really classify that as a negative reinforcer.

Positive reinforcement of course is a good consequence for good behavior, praise, treat, a toy, etc. Many trainers advocate using a mix of both positive and negative reinforcement when training. I suppose I do a combination in some instances, although not by saying "no" "bad" and making him/her do what I want. I prefer to behave in a way that makes the dog choose to do the behavior I want on their own. For example, if I throw Tommy's ball and he gets it and then gives it back to me when I say "give it to me" he may get a treat (random) or get the ball thrown again (which is a reward for him). If he goes and gets it, and does not give it to me when I ask him, I ignore him for a few moments and that usually does the trick, he'll often come give it to me when he sees I won't chase him. If he still doesn't, the session is over and he has to go back inside, no treat and no more ball throwing at that time. That's his consequence.

I found it's easiest to train leash manners starting out without a leash on, teaching off-leash heeling using treats as a lure and treating/praising heavily as they walked at my side, while saying heel. After some practice with this they learn to associate 'heel' with walking at your side and they do it enthusiastically for reward, not to avoid a pop. When they get proficient at that, you add in a leash and keep doing the same thing. I'd love to start out this way with a puppy and prevent pulling from ever happening in the first place, because once pulling habit is formed it's tougher to eliminate.

Tommy is fairly well trained on leash walking and I'm still working with him, however in his case he has his timidity issues, which I've also worked with extensively. Clicker training methods will not eliminate his startle response to sudden stimuli. I've worked with him on this extensively, and I still am. I have to work with each new thing individually, but I do not think I will ever completely eliminate his initial *jerk* response when something unexpected occurs. I don't use either choker or prong on Tasha, and I wouldn't use either on Tommy if he did not have that startle response issue. As it is, I only use it when I feel I am in a potentially dangerous situation, i.e. walking by a major highway or trafficway.

Jessica touched on something that I was going to mention earlier, but didn't.

I say I use positive reinforcement only because its easier than explaining the 4 basic training ideas...

Negative Reinforcement (something unpleasant that is taken away to increase the likelihood that a behaviour is repeated... the reward is having the unpleasant stimuli removed)
Positive Reinforcement (something added to increase the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated)
Positive Punishment (something unpleasant to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated - does not correct a mistake but teaches dog not to do mistake again - physical pain and/or unpleasantness)
Negative Punishment (removing a reward to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated - no pain inflicted)

I use a combination of Positive Reinforcement and Negative Punishment. My Negative Punishments consist of verbal "Uh-uh" or "Too bad!" and putting away treats or ceasing walks. I don't agree with Negative Reinforcement or Positive Punishment (choke chain) methods.

It is kind of confusing because the negative/positive verbage refers to adding or subtracting stimuli and not the definitions we're used to. So thats why I didn't mention it before.

Anyway, so I not only show the dog what to do using positive reinforcement, I also communicate to the dog what undesirable behavior is by using negative punishment (if the dog pulls on the leash, I stop walking and stand still until I have their attention ... if the dog doesn't sit when given the command, I'd say "too bad!" and pretend to eat the treat myself or put it in my pocket, etc).

We also don't allow prongs or chokes in our classes.

I've never used a choke chain, I do have a nylon choker type thing (the only reason I have it is because it was on clearance for $1 :o ) and I tried that a couple of times, he just chokes himself, I haven't used it since.

I personally cannot imagine using a choker or prong for anything but leash walking. I've taken Nebo to several obedience classes and they all used positive reinforcement and clicker training. They did teach us to do a negative correction too, but it was not a pop with a choke chain it was like an "eh eh" sound and believe it or not Nebo actually does respond to that. If I have him offleash playing with other dogs and he's doing something wrong...and the only correction strong enough for him to respond to was a pop with a choke chain, how am I going to correct him? A dog that responds from a voice correction is a lot easier to control in an off leash situation (not that he always responds :rolleyes: )

I have used a prong collar for walking situations. Nebo knows how to heel, he will do it if I'm walking just him alone and there's no distractions. He was taught how to walk nicely on a leash using positive reinforcement methods. But if I try to walk him when there's other dogs around, he will not listen to me. I have tried practicing with distractions around and have gotten nowhere. He would do it at the classes around other dogs, but not at home walking down the street. He's very stubborn. I have a halti, he HATES HATES HATES the halti, he just stops and scratches his nose every 5 seconds. I've tried to get him used to it and left it on not walking...still tries to get it off, he just can't stand that thing. When he has the prong collar on I never jerk on it to correct him, if he pulls it corrects him automatically. He does not seem to be in pain at all and enjoys the walk. That said, I very rarely use it. I usually just walk him with a harness, he still pulls but I deal with it....he does tire out after we've been walking for a while. He doesn't pull insanely bad like some dogs, basically walking on 2 legs because they are pulling so hard (Sydney!). He just walks but the leash is tight.

Aly, thanks for clarifying all of that. I sort of knew what the positive/negative terminology meant but didn't know how to really explain it. Many people hear positive or negative and consider it to mean Positive = good, negative = bad when in reality it's positive = add, negative = subtract.

I had to read through your definitions a few times for it to all click together in my mind :p. I've been trying to learn all the particulars of a new account with my work, and my brain is dead for the day.

I trained Tash traditionally with the slip collar in her obedience class when she was 7 months old, but had I to do it over again I'd definitely use the methods I used to re-train her. Sometimes if we're walking and she gets distracted and starts pulling ahead, I just say "uh uh" in a fairly chipper manner and it works to focus her attention back on me.

I'd highly recommend positive training methods such as those Aly and Candy mentioned for training sessions.