Terri Schiavo - so sad :(

One of the things that gets me is when people say to go a head and let her starve to death because she won't feel it.

HOW THE HECK DO THEY KNOW??????

I think she will feel it. They didn't think people in comas knew what was going on either. Now, they are finding, lots of them do know what is going on. Terri may too. Unless someone has been in her condition and recovered enough to tell about it, they will never know.

I watched them starve my dad to death and I think HE did feel it and he was in a coma. It still haunts me because I couldn't stop it.

Fox News said this morning that when this first happened one of the nurses that was taking care of Terri was able to hand feed her. Terri's husband made her stop and told her he wanted a feeding tube or nothing. It was a email they read this morning.

This has ME upset too. I wish someone would explain exactly what forces were behind all the hoopla on Palm Sunday night. Whatever is important enough to gather all these politicians? I don't think it really had anything to do with the family or Terry Schiavo - something else must be behind this.

I don't believe the federal government has any right to interfere in 15 years' worth of court decisions. What will happen now to individual state's rights? What business does the government or church have to meddle into such private things??

I keep wishing someone without ANY political agenda would explain what happened last night. Who paid for all this??? WE DID. It must have cost a fortune...

The whole thing scares me. Maybe I am paranoid - but it seems as if our lives are under far too much control - by goverenment, church, interest groups...I don't even know who was responsible or behind this latest mess but it was far bigger than it should have been. Since when do lawmakers use vacation time to listen to hearings?? Exactly what brought all those politicians out? What is the true agenda??

I suppose the only small comfort is the Living Will & Advanced Directives I have carried for many years. I have an illness (renal failure) that will eventually take my life and so it has been VERY important to me to take care of this one thing I feel I have some degree of control over.
Living Will/Advanced Directives: These are free. There are even available at websites - just need notorizing or two witnesses, depending on your state. If you don't have one, get one. Keep copies on file with your doctors, hospitals, at home and Xerox shrink a copy to carry with you at all times. Hopefully - if the time ever comes to have it honored - it will still be legally binding.

Murder is always a concern of the government and the church, or should be.

This would be legalized murder, plain and simple!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Murder is always a concern of the government and the church, or should be.

This would be legalized murder, plain and simple!

---

MOFF, that is one opinion - but then - is a Living Will considered legalized suicide??

Isn't is possible that the right to die with dignity really WAS this woman's desire?? I know most folks dislike her husband (hard to think well of him) but nobody can really knows what she wanted, unfortunately.

Are you honestly saying that all of the thousands of people on life support systems on any given day around the world.. who's doctors and family's agree there is no chance of recovery. Who's heart, liver, eyes etc could be used to save someone elses life. All of the doctors and family members who heart breakingly agree upon the final act of respect.. they are murderers!?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by lbaker
Are you honestly saying that all of the thousands of people on life support systems on any given day around the world.. who's doctors and family's agree there is no chance of recovery. Who's heart, liver, eyes etc could be used to save someone elses life. All of the doctors and family members who heart breakingly agree upon the final act of respect.. they are murderers!?

---

No! That's not what I am saying!
She is breathing on her own. She can follow objects with her eyes. She has not been given an MRI to find the extent of her brain damage. She has not been given the benefit of any kind of therapy to see if she could improve.

Most families I know, order every possible test to find out if their loved ones have any chance of recovery. In this case, her parents wanted all the tests, and were willing to pay for them. Her husband refused!

Most families make sure their loved one is at least, brain dead before they give the ok to start harvesting their organs. A person who is brain dead, can not sit there and look around at you. A person has to be legally dead before organs can be taken. Terri is not legally dead.

You need to be very very sure before you end a life because you can not bring them back. There is just too many unsetteling things about this that I feel should be looked into.

No one deserves to be starved to death. If they decide she really can't be helped, at least give her a lethal injection and make it quick.

A living will would have been a great help. At least her family would know in their own minds, it was what she wanted. It would give them a measure of peace. That is out of the question for Terri now though. All they have is the word of her husband who possibly would like her out of his life.

Did she have a will? I was under the impression that her husband "said that she said" one time . . .

I'm still suspecious of the husband. Probably wouldn't be if I knew he had been supportive & loving for the past 10 years. But obviously he has quickly moved on.

Like I said before, he needs to rid himself of this guilt . . . just too bad that it means a loss of life.

There is column in my local newspaper called Let It Out where
various opinions & comments are made about news events. This
comment appeared the other day & I must say it reflectes my feeling too.

" O K, federal government, get out of my bed, my kitchen, my
house,my car,my marriage, my health care, my religion and
especially my death bed. Try minding your own business, and I'll
take care of mine"

This sudden flury of activity by congress & the white house is
a very transparent ploy for political gain. They hope to profit from
this family's tragedy.

Dr. Kevorkian is my hero. No one has the right to tell me how to live or not live my life.

Like Lizbud said...

" O K, federal government, get out of my bed, my kitchen, my
house,my car,my marriage, my health care, my religion and
especially my death bed. Try minding your own business, and I'll
take care of mine"

Quote:

---

Originally posted by moosmom
Dr. Kevorkian is my hero. No one has the right to tell me how to live or not live my life.

---

That's fine as long as you are able to decide for yourself what you want.
But what if you never told any one your wishes? Or at least only told someone you thought loved you but might really have not?

I think I would be more at peace about this if her husband had not waited 8 YEARS before he first tried to have the tube removed. If her wishes were to die, why did HE WAIT SO LONG?

I'm doubly disgusted at Congress for jumping into this situation.

First of all, making political hay out of a personal tragedy is beyond contempt.

Second, why haven't we heard anything from Congress about the law in Texas that allows hospitals to remove patients from life support without the family's permission!

Last week, a Texas hospital removed the breathing tube from a six-month-old baby against his mother's wishes. Here's the story.

Has it reached the point where the government and large corporations that run hospitals pick and choose whose life is prolonged and whose isn't? And if that's the case, there's no hope for the poor and uninsured--life support is expensive, and corporations think only of profits.

It's not easy to make the decision to pull someone off life support because you're always going to be thinking, "what if", but when doctors, the medical professionals, are telling you there is NO chance for recovery or quality of life, then you have to do what's in the best interest of the one on life support. It's selfish to do otherwise. The mother of that baby (Sun) admitted that she didn't get prenatal care, which IMO could be considered neglect and if she had she would have found out and been better prepared for the decision she would have had to make when the baby was born. Someone had to make the decision to end his suffering and the mother was too emotional to do the right thing.

It's like having pet put to sleep. You know it needs to be done even though you have that shimmer of hope they'll get better, but do you let them suffer or let them go?

..and THAT, PC is the question at hand. Do you love them enough to let them go? doG knows I've been in that situation. That's why they have DNR as an option when someone checks into the hospital. DO NOT RESUSITATE. To suffer? A huge NO. so that part is a torment. We treat animals and even vile inmates with better compassion. THAT is the crime at this point in time by the damned politico's. In my most very, humble opinion. I will not comment any longer. I have too much respect for some PetTalkers here I adore and don't want to offend by getting into a pi$$ing contest over personal beliefs

Laurie, I agree that people should be able to die with dignity provided that they have signed a living will. In Terri's case there is only hearsay from someone with very questionable motives (i.e., the 'husband').. If she really wanted to die then her parents will owe her an apology in heaven. If she wanted to remain alive and that choice was taken from her then God help the people responsible for removing her feeding tube. They will answer to Him. Bottom line: we really don't know Terri's wishes and I would prefer to err on the side of life.

I agree with you, Pam...and therefore I did my living will yesterday.
Downloaded it from the web, got 2 wtinesses and had it notorized and placed with my regular will..

I'm not going to get into this discussion, but it has been interesting to read all of your thoughts. Those of you who know me well will already know how I feel about it.

BUT........I'm listening to talk radio this morning as I work and they are talking with two attorneys about Living Wills right now. I would seek local counsel in your state regarding living wills because apparently the laws for these documents vary from state to state. These lawyers are licensed in South Carolina and are approaching it from that perspective, but they say the SC law and Florida law are not the same. So, make sure, when you prepare these documents for yourself, at least have them reviewed by a lawyer in your state to make sure that your wishes can be complied with.

Logan :(

Here's the question that all these effing lawyers, congress folks, senators and everyone else should ask THEMSELVES..

IF for some god forsaken reason, they should suddenly lose all ability to care for themselves, would they consider spending the next 12 years, bedridden, in a hospice somewhere..


Therein the answer lies.

Counting the holes in the ceiling tiles is not quality of life.
:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Pam
...
This "husband" has been that in name only. His heart and life is obviously with his other family. The people who love and care about her are her parents and I simply cannot understand why he doesn't turn things over to them and let them take her home and care for her as they want to so much.....

---

Nice to "see" you Pam! :)
**hugs**

I agree with you about the husband. He was given an "out" when they asked him why he doesn't just divorce her and let the parents take care of it. If he wants to move on with his life and new family, I don't understand why he doesn't divorce her instead of keeping a "mistress" for all of these years. :rolleyes:

It sure seems like some background investigation should be taken, especially if there are questionable circumstances.

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. On one hand, if there is absolutely no quality of life at all, what's the point of dragging it out? Like others have said, we help our animals along when there's no quality of life. If in fact, her brain has atrophied and there is no chance at all for recovery...then it's not right to keep this person alive, especially if they aren't even aware of being alive. I could see why helping her along to heaven would be a better choice. After all, people are allowed to "kill" unborn babies who might have otherwise been healthy normal people...so why not help someone who has been suffering in a vegetative state for 15 years finally have some peace??!! :confused:

On the other hand, if she seems like she's aware of what's happening, then removing the feeding tube and having her starve to death seems really cruel to me.

I think having a living will would be the best option for any case like this when there is a lot of grey area.

This is all so upsetting to me... :( ! I think I mostly agree with Gracie's mom: I can NOT accept the way they want to let her die. Starve to death is a punishment and it is so cruel!!. Is THAT what this poor woman deserves??:mad: .

On Fox news this morning they interviewed a nurse that took care of Terri from 1995 to Aug. of 1996. She said Terri could speak and make her wishes known at that time. She was also able to eat thickened foods.

When Terri's husband found out she could eat, he stopped it and insisted on a feeding tube.

The nurse also said she caught Terri's husband giving Terri insulin. That would put her in a coma like state. She also found needle marks under Terri's breasts and arms.

She said he would come in and ask them if the b.... was dead yet. It's her opinion he was trying to kill Terri.

The nurse told her supervisors and the police. They did nothing but fire her. That's just what she said but I think this all needs looking into, especially since this is the second nurse to state things like this.

Terri's husband refused to come on the show and challenge the nurses claims.

A doctor that treats Terri said she has not even been tested to see if she can swallow on her own for years but she could, at one time do it.

If Terri is really beyond help, well that's one thing. Of course you don't want them to suffer.

But there are just two many questions, I feel. I'm not the one making the choices though nor, am I the one who will have to live with what ever is decided. But do they HAVE TO STARVE HER TO DEATH?
I still say, a lethal injection would be more humane.

This is being discussed on several other boards I frequent, I found a post from someone that I wholeheartedly agree with so I've shamelessly c/p this to here:

The parents have successfully made this guy out to look horrible, and have done a very good job at a smear campaign.. I do find it disturbing to watch interviews with the mother where she's asked if she knew Terri's wishes, and she says, "No". (CNN Larry King Live Interview, 9/24/2004) She said she just wanted to take care of her for the rest of her life. Realistically, Terri would outlive her mother, but what happens if her mother's health fails or if she passes away?

Next, her husband is actually an Emergency Medicine Nurse with a hospital in the area..

With all these stories of abuse, and that Michael gave Doctors money to say his wife is in a persistent vegetative state, etc are all BS.. This case has been through all of the courts MULTIPLE times over the past 10 years, and only a small percentage sided with the family. The family, grasping for straws, got a nurse to testify in the trial in 96 that she was a nurse for Terri and that she was alert and trying to communicate, etc. And that's what the family takes as THE TRUTH, however, her testimony was thrown out because she didn't come forward at the first trial, and only came forward after being let go from the hospice facility.

Now, trying to look at this from the family's side, I can understand a bit. Here's a family that I believe genuinely loves their daughter, and they see her smile once in a while, and blink and once in a while follow a shiny object with her eyes, sort of. So, they translate this into someone being behind those eyes, their daughter and they think that she will get better with therapy that they say isn't being done. They have doctors across the country sending them letters saying that she can talk but she just needs some help. However, independent doctors that have actually met with her and done work with her have said quite the opposite. In the early 90's Michael had taken her out to California to do an experimental surgery that had helped a small amount with people in less severe situations, it was inserting a stimulus in the brain. Most people wore for 3 months with some results, she wore it for 1 year with no results whatsoever.

Also, you should check out the brain scans that they had done in the mid 90's of her brain. Basically, the entire half of the rear has all deteriorated because of her lack of oxygen as well as spinal fluid eating away at it. However, she still isn't considered brain dead, just not cognizant.

her doctors, both hired by her husband and also court ordered independent doctors have said that she is in a persistent vegetative state, AKA, hopeless, and her guardian, her husband, has said that her wish is to not be on these machines that keep her alive

she was Bulimic (sp?), but as you may know for women it's a very secretive thing, even the closest people to them don't know it's going on... Even her friends said that she seemed to be eating fine, and seemed to actually eat quite a bit before the injury. Also, this has been to court MANY times, and this notion has been thrown out every time as there is no evidence and you can not hold someone to what you think they might have done by whatever prejudices you have for the situation.

If Terri really didn't want to be kept alive by any machines at all, then her family has kept her alive for 15 YEARS against her wishes. I wouldn't want video of me plastered all over every TV station showing my family having to hold my head up and me sort of glaring at a balloon and flashing lights not able to move and in a clenched position. For me, it's a quality of life issue, if I know that I wouldn't come out of it, and would be bed ridden forever, and am not actively talking and need machines to help me live, I wouldn't want to be kept alive.

Now,

Michael also said that HE WOULD NOT GAIN ANYTHING from her death at all. That has been her family saying that. Her family offered him $700k to relinquish guardianship and divorce her 2 years ago, he declined.. He has offered that if/when she passes to have them do a full audit of everything if they choose to prove to them that he is not going to get any money out of this at all.. The family is trying to make him out to be this bad guy that just wants to kill his wife to get insurance money and/or settlement money..

Interviews were done for both sides on Larry King... For Michael his Lawyer sat there with document after document and case after case of proof, her family sat there just talking about what they feel and not having anything to back it up at all, their lawyer sat there rather quietly..

The parents need to learn to let go.

If inmates on death row were denied food and water it would be considered "cruel and unusual punishment".
Seems to me, it should be considered the same for Terri, or any human.
There has to be a better way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because doctors don't THINK a person in this condition feels anything by being starved, doesn't make it right. They don't really know! They've not been through it themselves.

As for the parents needing to learn to let go, that's easier said than done if it's your child or kin that you love with all your heart. :(

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Luvin Labs

Michael also said that HE WOULD NOT GAIN ANYTHING from her death at all.

---

Then why not just divorce her? Principle? That's just spiting her family. The way I see it, he's moved on to greener pastures. He has a girlfriend and two illegitimate children. (Don't even get me started on the whole "'Til death do us part" thing.) If he stands to gain nothing, divorce would be a very simple way out.

I find it repulsive she is being allowed to starve to death. Animals in government facilities (animal shelters, etc.) aren't permitted to starve to death, but we will let a fellow human being suffer that fate? I don't think so.

This truly does show how very important a living will is, if nothing else. This whole debacle has made me sit down with my husband and parents and share my wishes with them so, God forbid, if anything like this were ever to happen to me they'd at least know what my wishes were.

Simply said, it seems to me that if there is any doubt, then they should ere on the side of life, and there appears to be much doubt.

Samantha Puppy, I agree with you whole heartedly on everything you said.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
Then why not just divorce her?

---

Because he wants to see her wishes carried out. And obviously the courts (fifteen years of dealing with courts, evidence and reports) have decided in her and her husbands favor.

HOW do you know she is suffering with the feeding tube removed? We dunno. You dunno. I dunno.

Quote:

---

the deterioration of Terri's brain left her without thoughts or feelings, that the damage is irreversible, and that Terri's life-like appearance is merely the result of brain stem activity -- basically involuntary reflexes we all have.

An independent doctor hired by the court reached the same conclusions.

---

From this quote, I really don't think we are 'killing her' since there are no thoughts or feelings... i.e. she isn't feeling anything because that part of her brain is not there.

Here's another site about this case:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

If I were her parents, I'd be in her room with water and an eye dropper just to see if I could get some water down her. They don't know that she can't swallow.

Choking to death would be no worse than starving to death.

No they don't know for sure she's suffering without the feeding tube but THEY DON'T KNOW SHE ISN'T either!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
They don't know that she can't swallow.

---

Actually, they've known for YEARS that she cannot swallow.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf

Page two, first full paragraph.

Can't c/p since its adobe.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
Actually, they've known for YEARS that she cannot swallow.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf

Page two, first full paragraph.

Can't c/p since its adobe.

---

Well, no wonder everyone is so confused. The doctors don't even agree.

One of the ones treating her said on Fox this morning that they have not done a test on her to see if she could swallow for years.

I'd still give it a go. At this point there's not much to lose and who knows?

True, it can't hurt just to try it again, who knows maybe she actually can now...

won't hurt just to try, I mean if it means proving she can or cannot, then it'll be current info/tests and hopefully help close this case

i have a living will, i've had it for many years. my biological family lives in another state, my family of choice lives here in ohio. i've worked in health care for 20 years, and i'm very very clear under no circumstances do i want a feeding tube inserted, if there is no meaningful chance of recovery. my primary physician has a copy of the directives, and i've looked her right in the face,every year since i had the living will done and reiterated, no tubes, dnr for me. my coworkers know dnr, no tubes. the doctors i work with, one that i love, a brilliant neuroradiologist, another a very very good radiologist know that i don't want tubes and want to be dnr. i've told as many people as i possibly can, do not tube me, i'm dnr. all of pet talk now knows, no tubes, dnr. may i never have to use it, amen. if i were found unconscious somewhere, the paramedics and er team would have to tube me, that is there job, to keep my human form alive, under all costs, but when i'm identified, by my telling so many people my wishes, those tubes can be legally removed.
this whole thing is sad beyond belief. i ache for her husband and her biological family. i am mightly pis#$d off at the politicans in florida and washington for having the shameless nerve to insert themselves into a private matter for their own political ends. how disgusting. this event is private and not at all the business of the florida legislature, floridia gov,. the us congress and the white house . terri is not a toy. this is wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by lizbud

" O K, federal government, get out of my bed,

---

So you enjoy the company of Uncle Sam in YOUR bed every April 15th too????;)

To expand on this topic a bit more....

Starving a person to death is a fricking crime...

Now, as pet people on this site what do we do when we find our pets suffering or living a life that has no quality to it????


This is not an easy question to answer...we do have to take measures that will insure us a peaceful trip to the RB....


Yeah, it sucks to see all this politicos hamming it up for the voters and even sadder to see it as the topic 'du jour' in the media..

Richard, I rarely disagree with you, but I do this time.......I only refer to my earlier post regarding ering on the side of life, since there are so many questions. The whole thing makes me sad, and yes, I feel it is murder......... :(

And yet....many of the same politicians who are calling for the sanctity of life...and "we don't know for sure" are all for the death sentence. We don't know for sure about many who are on death row. How many how been found to be innocent of the crime for which they were convicted??? How many people have been put to death "incorrectly"??? Why are these politicians who are so concerned about life not INSISTING on a moritorium on the death penalty until we are sure??? Why is one life more valuable than another???

I think it is a extremely selfish thing the parents are doing, let Terri have some peace from this Earth. She has no quality of life, put yourself in Terri's place, really just think about it and answer me this question... Would you want to spend 15 or more years like she has, would you really?? I know that I would NOT.

As for the government getting involved, it sickens me for several reasons. First and fore most if they really believed what they claimed about erring with the side of life then why didn't they get involved in the case in Texas?? :confused:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
And yet....many of the same politicians who are calling for the sanctity of life...and "we don't know for sure" are all for the death sentence. We don't know for sure about many who are on death row. How many how been found to be innocent of the crime for which they were convicted??? How many people have been put to death "incorrectly"??? Why are these politicians who are so concerned about life not INSISTING on a moritorium on the death penalty until we are sure??? Why is one life more valuable than another???

---

Sara, Alan Dershowitz was on GMA this morning and addressed this as it relates to both sides. He brought up your point but also said that many of those who are crying to do away with the death penalty are also first in line to end Terri's life. He said both sides have their agenda and that is the bottom line.

This poor woman was not convicted of a crime. She is not even remotely a criminal. She is an innocent person who is being allowed to starve to death. Though others have used this word barbaric I can't think of anything that so appropriately describes what is going on.

I am conflicted about the death penalty. My concern is not whether it is an appropriate punishment or not. My concern is the adequacy of the judical system and its ability to determine guilt. Too many times someone has been on death row and then exonerated when the real killer is found. And usually they are poor and minority.

If it is barbaric to remove her feeding tube....what is it to convict an innocent person....let them sit for years in prison...and then execute them???? Is it okay because they are poor, have committed other crimes, are mentally retarded, had a bad lawyer?

How many times is too many?

I agree with what Dershowitz said. But I also cannot understand how one can say they are pro-life and be pro-death penalty. The system just isn't good enough to ensure that an innocent person won't be put to death for a crime they didn't commit.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RICHARD


Now, as pet people on this site what do we do when we find our pets suffering or living a life that has no quality to it????

---

Well, we don't starve them to death!

Another thing makes me think. Her parents have to under go 3 security checks before they can get in to see Terri. (all ordered by Terri's husband)

I have no problem with THAT but why must they be strip searched?

Not to keep them from killing Terri. They know THAT won't happen. The only reason I can see is to keep them from giving her water / food and HELPING her.

I'm afraid it is too late for Terri now. It's like I said earlier, if she must die, couldn't they at least be merciful about it?

People can't even agree about when life starts, how can they decide when it should end?

:(

How do we know they are NOT being merciful? We dunno if they are giving her drugs or not to end her life peacefully.

chelsea

Quote:

---

As for the government getting involved, it sickens me for several reasons. First and fore most if they really believed what they claimed about erring with the side of life then why didn't they get involved in the case in Texas??
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...olitan/3084934

---

they actually DID get involved, they made a bill to pull the plug! You see bush flip flops just as much as the next politician.

Lemme find more information on that... I DO remember that El Presidente signed some bill in TX in 1999 that allows hospitals to pull the plug.

brb on that

Quote:

---

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Well, we don't starve them to death!

People can't even agree about when life starts, how can they decide when it should end?

:(

---

MOFF you have that right.

We were all discussing this at work today and one of my co-workers had an interesting thought. She said how in the world are both sides ever going to come together at one funeral? She made the comment that if it was her daughter lying there she could not be in the same church as the "husband." Possibly two funerals she thought. I hadn't allowed myself to go that far in my thinking but I guess I had better start doing so. :(

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I am conflicted about the death penalty. My concern is not whether it is an appropriate punishment or not. My concern is the adequacy of the judical system and its ability to determine guilt. Too many times someone has been on death row and then exonerated when the real killer is found. And usually they are poor and minority.

---

Sara I am conflicted as well. Recently there was a man on extreme make-overs who had been rotting in prison for years (maybe decades - I can't even remember) all because of a teeth imprint on the body which an "expert" testified was made from his teeth. Through DNA now he has been proven innocent and released. Amazingly he exhibits little bitterness.

As we become more and more sophisticated in the ways we handle forensic evidence hopefully these things will be happening less and less. Of course it is too late for some. :( My hubby is very strongly against capital punishment. I think it very much has its place in circumstances like the slime that killed little Jessica Lunsford. He has confessed. Let's save the state some money and the lawyers their trouble. My heart aches for those who may have been wrongly executed but I don't think we can throw out the whole concept. Let's throw out the lenient judges. Jessica's killer had 24 arrests. He should have been locked up and the key thrown away. Now there's a start. Sorry, I am getting off topic. :rolleyes: