An Explanation, and a Plea for Forgiveness...

Just a thought...

Even dogs that are not human aggressive have severely injured their beloved humans in the midst of a dog fight. Yes, a person could try their best to keep the dog from other dogs, but what if?

I wasn't there. I don't know Arthur, her, or the situation. I am just speaking in general.

I know that when my RB Rosco attacked that boy, there were so many thoughts running through my head. I had been working with him for quite a while and he'd been attack free for over a year when that happened. He tore down a tree and a chain in order to get the boy. THANK GOD that I was able to rip Rosco off of the boy in time. He was hurt, but not badly.

But to see a dog want something so badly that he gets superhuman strength is a very frightening thing. My adrenaline was going so fast and my heart was so broken, it was hard to think.

Maybe I could have done more, maybe Rosco could have changed. But what if I'd given Rosco another chance, and it was on that borrowed time that he killed someone? He loved me, but he was obviously wired wrong, what if he suddenly turned on me?

I am sure that Heinz has the same guilty thoughts and "what ifs" running through her head. That is a hell of a decision to make. I don't think that anyone should judge her until they've been in her shoes.

Just another comment...

I know that most of us would not stand by while a huge rottweiler was attacking our beloved furbaby. We'd get into the fight to save our pet. We would be injured too. I know no matter how much I preach to my son, he as a child, couldn't stand back while his dog got mauled. He'd step in and be injured. Just because a dog is only dog aggressive doesn't mean he isn't a threat to humans.

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I know that most of us would not stand by while a huge rottweiler was attacking our beloved furbaby. We'd get into the fight to save our pet. We would be injured too. I know no matter how much I preach to my son, he as a child, couldn't stand back while his dog got mauled. He'd step in and be injured. Just because a dog is only dog aggressive doesn't mean he isn't a threat to humans

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I'm sure none of us would stand by and see one of our babies hurt by any animal or human for that matter.I also would do whatever had to be done to stop one of my dogs from hurting a person or an animal. I also feel that we are all at risk of one of our dogs turning on us or someone else at any time. There are no guarantees that because so far we have been lucky enough to have loving, non agressive babies that they can't suddenly lose it and attack us, another animal or person. This is the risk we take when we own animals of all sizes and breeds. Yes bigger dogs can do more harm than smaller dogs and I know that so I take all the necessary precautions, watch their body language and in doing so I feel I am doing all I can to protect myself, family, friends, other peoples animals, etc. I feel I am a responsible pet owner and am always with my dogs when they are outside. All dogs have alert modes and if you know what to look for hopefully you can stop something before it gets out of control. I never take for granted that my dogs would not be capable of killing me or someone, something else but I try to read all I can about animal behavior and how they view us and our actions as humans. I pray that I never have to make the tough decision that heinz57 had to make.

((((HUGS)))) I do believe you did the right thing. I'm very sorry that it had to be so tough, though. :`( I hope Charlie feels better soon. Play hard at the Rainbow Bridge, sweet Arthur. :( (((((((((HUGS)))))))))

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Originally posted by Tonya
.. That is a hell of a decision to make. I don't think that anyone should judge her until they've been in her shoes.

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Well said!

Rest in Peace Arthur.

I agree Tonya. I don't know of anyone, except you, who's been there.

JC, I'm so sorry for this tragedy. I can only imagine how painful a decision that was for you. :(

Please take care.

I forgot to say before, you give Charley a kiss on the nose for me, okay?

I havent had a chance to post until now...

I would like to say how sorry I am about you having to make this dicsion. I know you did what you felt was best for the rest of your crew and Arthur.

:( this has been a really sad month for many people...

*Hugs* from me and the crew

No one has any right to condemn or judge this decision. We do not live in this house, we do not deal with these dogs. This was not our decision, nor our responsibility.

I have euthanized two foster dogs in the past for aggression. I was the one who was responsible for these dogs, and I was the one who had to make and live with the decision. It was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do, but I had to do it. And I had to deal with it. The last thing I would have needed was some uninformed people telling me I was wrong from thousands of miles away, never having met these dogs.

People seem quick to criticize at times, and quick to offer pat advice with no background or knowledge of the sitution. What people never seem to do, however, is take action. No one ever says, "I will take that dog into my home for you, then, and I will deal with his aggresion, and I will place my pets and/or children at risk." No, we won't do that ... but we will place blame and find fault.

Judge not, lest you shall be judged.

I just wanted to say that I agree that no one has the right to judge, as none of us were there and none of us experienced it, BUT I don't think anyone was questioning anything that JC did, I think they were just expressing opinions.

I know that this was a VERY difficult decision for JC to make and I'm sure she has already went through all the "what if"s in her mind, so we don't need to make it worse.

JC-I hope Charlie is feeling better and I hope you stick around.

JC And Bella please believe me I was not meaning to sound judgemental over what decision you made. I don't think anything I said today insinuated that and if so i apologize. I'm not a mean, uncarring person and I try not to judge what anyone does because as I said it's not my place to do so. Yes at first I sent you my deepest sympathies as did many others. It was after reading all the posts and thinking about everything the last few days that made me think was there another way? Only because of how you described what was happening with Arthur and Charlie when you asked for advice or help. This quote is from your reply post.

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We're going to be keeping the boys completely separate for the next couple days, and Arthur will be never be fed outside of his crate ever again. Charlie's looking sore, and more bedraggled than usual, and Arthur's all stiff and sore too. sigh... Arthur isn't aggressive in any other way. He's great with the kittens, Anna, Chloe, Bella and myself. And he's usually good with Charlie too, until the butthead goes after his food.

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So yes it was upsetting to me that he was gone. It didn't sound so bad being as it was a food issue with Charlie and he wasn't agressive at any other time. I had hoped things would get worked out.

Now I'm really upset since you posted this today.

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His aggression was no longer limited to just Charlie and his food. I could no longer take his chewies away without him going for me. NO ONE could walk near him, regardless of whether he had a chewie or not. We talked to a behaviorist. And again. And again. And again. When we did what we did, even she agreed it was for the best.

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You hadn't posted that he had become agressive towards you and Bella when you posted ( He's Gone ) All I knew was that Charlie was stealing Arthurs food and that was causing Arthur to become agressive towars Charlie. No mention of any other agressiveness at that time. Not until you posted today was that brought up. That being the case we did not have all the information we have now. I still don't think the majority of people judged you but rather displayed upset over what Arthur, you, Bella& Charlie had been through. I'm certain that if everyone had known that Arthur was agressive to you and Bella some things would not have been said today. I'm very sorry for all the pain you are in over this terrible mess and the loss of your Arthur. God Bless and help you heal. Rest In Peace Arthur.:( I hope you find my Nikita....please give her kisses for me.

:( So sory to read about the whole situation. Your heart must be aching terribly - I hope I never have to make a decision like that. My friend had to, though, when her male akita turned on her female akita and nearly killed her (after living together for many years!) My friend also made the choice you did and immediately put her dog down, not wanting to risk his aggression worsening.
As many have said, we weren't there in your shoes.
To me, it seems like you did try, you did work with a behaviorist - and you made a sane and mature decision based on the situation. I hope Charlie heals quickly. Prayers & light coming your way ---

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Originally posted by ChrisH
Well said!

Rest in Peace Arthur.

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Same here.. I agree..

I don't understand this -- seems like something is said, and most of the time, it's bashing.. let it go, please.. all you're doing is making her heart more ripped apart..

Unless one is fortunate enough to find a home with a handler that is experienced with rehabilitating aggressive dogs, I am strongly against rehoming an aggressive dog. I think it is morally wrong to hand over a knowingly aggressive dog to another inexperienced person and expect them to deal with it. People and animals die that way.

I Strongly feel that this person did what She had to do in Her situation....Every situation is Different...

But Again...I am not here to Judge...
Just Know that My Heart goes out to you at this difficult time...
And I hope that Charley is better soon!!!

The only thing that I will say...is No Judgement at All...

Just a Warning...STAY AWAY FromBackyard Breeders!!!
9 out of 10 Dogs with "Bad Wiring" are a result of years of cross and inbreeding ...to "Strengthen The Lineage!!!"
By Breeders who have Not a Clue what They Are Breeding!!
We have seen it over the Years in So Many Breeds!!!
Dobermans
Rottweilers
German Shepards
Dalmations
Pit Bulls
Great Danes
Yes,Even Cocker Spaniels!!!!
After Their Hips,Eyes and Every other part of their Physical is bred damaged,Then Goes their Mind!!!


R.I.P. Sweet Arthur....
You Probably Did Not Understand what was happening to you yourself...
Arthur Already Knows how much You Loved Him...He has Already forgiven you...
Play Hard at The Bridge Sweet Arthur!!!

I am so sorry. :( RIP sweet arthur. Play hard at the bridge.

Carly

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Originally posted by Kfamr
I'm glad someone said it.

I agree with Anna completely and fully.
I'll never fathom why this sweetheart was put to death so young.


And I guess that's all i'll say.

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I was thinking the same...

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Originally posted by Twisterdog
No one has any right to condemn or judge this decision. We do not live in this house, we do not deal with these dogs. This was not our decision, nor our responsibility.

I have euthanized two foster dogs in the past for aggression. I was the one who was responsible for these dogs, and I was the one who had to make and live with the decision. It was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do, but I had to do it. And I had to deal with it. The last thing I would have needed was some uninformed people telling me I was wrong from thousands of miles away, never having met these dogs.

People seem quick to criticize at times, and quick to offer pat advice with no background or knowledge of the sitution. What people never seem to do, however, is take action. No one ever says, "I will take that dog into my home for you, then, and I will deal with his aggresion, and I will place my pets and/or children at risk." No, we won't do that ... but we will place blame and find fault.

Judge not, lest you shall be judged.

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Well said, on all points.

I haven't been around much and missed this whole thing until reading the locked thread and now this one. I have to admit, I was absolutely shocked that people would have the audacity to comment on a situation that had absolutely nothing to do with them! If I were ever unforunate enough to have to deal with a similar situation, as Twisterdog said above, the last thing I'd want were some uninformed people telling me I was wrong from thousands of miles away, never having met these dogs... OR me.

JC's been a member here for quite awhile. You all probably know her better than I do, but even I can tell you that she loved her kids and I know she did everything possible to keep from putting Arthur down. She's one of us. She was faced with a horrible situation and she handled it in the best interest of herself, Bella, and their other dogs. It is really sad that Arthur had to be put down but to me, JC's actions were a hell of a lot more responsible than putting her safety, Bella's safety, and the other dogs' safety at risk OR trying to rehome an already-known aggressive dog.

JC, I'm sorry you had to deal with I know was one of the most difficult decisions you will ever have to make... and then to come here seeking support and deal with strangers questioning such a personal and sad choice - what a slap in the face. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Bella.

The closed thread that I responded to expressed my confusion
about the dramatic shift in Arthur's behavior from when he was
discribed as a "weenie" and a "peacemaker" in the group to a
dog acting with full fledged aggression against both people and
other dogs. An 8 month old pup ? What the heck happened?

I didn't understand, and still don't, but another thread last Aug.
now seems prophetic. http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...hlight=charlie

I will not post on this subject again ever. It makes me literally
sick at heart.:( Rest In Peace Arthur. :(

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No one ever says, "I will take that dog into my home for you, then, and I will deal with his aggresion,

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I'm sorry but you are jumping to conclusions here. I'm sure had it been posted that a new home was needed for Arthur than people with experience with Rotti's and aggression would have taken him. I can tell you that we would have taken him in a heartbeat. All our dogs are rescued dogs, all came with baggage and different behavioral problems that I have been able to correct. We all live in harmony here, even when I have a foster dog. So far as judging, your post was judging everyone who took part in the replies. I just wanted to point that out!
Nobody was trying to add salt to open wounds, people were just shocked, upset, sad, etc., human nature. Speaking for myself I really don't believe I was judging and said so in my posts. It's not anyones place to judge another person unless you are God.
I'm not saying anymore about this. Look at posts and quotes from JC. Seems Charlie was the problem from the get go to me.
I still send good wishes to JC and bella and have no hard feeling towards anyone on PT. I have loved it here and still do and hope to be here for many years to come.

Sending my love and hugs to everyone.
:)

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Originally posted by lizbud
The closed thread that I responded to expressed my confusion
about the dramatic shift in Arthur's behavior from when he was
discribed as a "weenie" and a "peacemaker" in the group to a
dog acting with full fledged aggression against both people and
other dogs. An 8 month old pup ? What the heck happened?

I didn't understand, and still don't, but another thread last Aug.
now seems prophetic. http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...hlight=charlie

I will not post on this subject again ever. It makes me literally
sick at heart.:( Rest In Peace Arthur. :(

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I now feel sick to my stomach. I hadn't seen that thread. So very sad. Thanks for posting that, lizbud.

It is very sad, and we are sure JC is as heartsick as anyone about the whole thing. She, Bella and Charlie will be in my prayers, and I hope yours, for a long time.

Let the healing begin. Let this rest.

Rest in peace Arthur.

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Originally posted by Twisterdog
No one ever says, "I will take that dog into my home for you, then, and I will deal with his aggresion, and I will place my pets and/or children at risk." No, we won't do that ... but we will place blame and find fault.

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Originally posted by RottiMommy49
I'm sorry but you are jumping to conclusions here. I'm sure had it been posted that a new home was needed for Arthur than people with experience with Rotti's and aggression would have taken him. I can tell you that we would have taken him in a heartbeat. All our dogs are rescued dogs, all came with baggage and different behavioral problems that I have been able to correct. We all live in harmony here, even when I have a foster dog. So far as judging, your post was judging everyone who took part in the replies. I just wanted to point that out!
Nobody was trying to add salt to open wounds, people were just shocked, upset, sad, etc., human nature. Speaking for myself I really don't believe I was judging and said so in my posts. It's not anyones place to judge another person unless you are God.
I'm not saying anymore about this. Look at posts and quotes from JC. Seems Charlie was the problem from the get go to me.
I still send good wishes to JC and bella and have no hard feeling towards anyone on PT. I have loved it here and still do and hope to be here for many years to come.

Sending my love and hugs to everyone.
:)

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There was an old dog named Speedy dropped on my lap this summer. I could not keep him, I could not find a home for him, and his health was failing. After calling many rescues, I asked PT for help rehoming him. No one could take him for me. Which at first was fine to me, I understood, I couldn't have him either. But once I put him to sleep, several people started talking about me behind my back. So I can vouch for that one...she's not jumping to conclusions.

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Originally posted by RottiMommy49
I'm sorry but you are jumping to conclusions here. I'm sure had it been posted that a new home was needed for Arthur than people with experience with Rotti's and aggression would have taken him. I can tell you that we would have taken him in a heartbeat. All our dogs are rescued dogs, all came with baggage and different behavioral problems that I have been able to correct. We all live in harmony here, even when I have a foster dog. So far as judging, your post was judging everyone who took part in the replies. I just wanted to point that out!
Nobody was trying to add salt to open wounds, people were just shocked, upset, sad, etc., human nature. Speaking for myself I really don't believe I was judging and said so in my posts. It's not anyones place to judge another person unless you are God.
I'm not saying anymore about this. Look at posts and quotes from JC. Seems Charlie was the problem from the get go to me.
I still send good wishes to JC and bella and have no hard feeling towards anyone on PT. I have loved it here and still do and hope to be here for many years to come.

Sending my love and hugs to everyone.
:)

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No, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I have done rescue for well over a decade, and worked with humane societies for almost two decades. I have plenty of experience to base my statements on.

It is very, very rare indeed that a known aggresive dog can be place, period. And, as Tonya said so eloquently, it is morally and ethically wrong to place an known aggresive dog with anyone other than a very experienced breed-specific rescue.

I tried for two years to place my two aggresive fosters with such a rescue ... someone who had more time, knowledge and experience than I did with the breeds and aggresion. I had no offers. I saw the same thing time and time and time again working at three different shelters in three different states. I am not jumping to conclusions ... I am speaking from almost twenty years of hard experience.

If you would have taken this dog, and you are qualified to do so, then kudos to you. You are indeed the very rare exception to the rule. However, in probably 99% of the cases, an aggresive dog cannot be placed, period.

I am so sorry you had to make such a difficult decision. Please know that I stand behind your decision 100%. I know it pained you to make it, and to read these comments must make you about break down. I am sorry for your double pain.

Hugs to you. RIP, Arthur, you are missed.

i really wished that this didnt become such a big discussion,i cant imagine how JC must be feeling about this,everyone talking about what happened to her little boy.:(

again we miss you Arthur:(

JC, I am truly, deepkly sorry that you had to make such a tough decision. May he be happy at the RB.

Everyone else: shame on you! Unless you have had to make a decision based on equal situations and circumstances, you are not to judge or berate JC for her decision! JC needs compassion and consideration right now - not out and out agression and venomous words.

Someday one of you will be faced with the same decision... remember that as you judge her. We are not here to judge others. We can only judge ourselves.

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Originally posted by catnapper
Everyone else: shame on you! Unless you have had to make a decision based on equal situations and circumstances, you are not to judge or berate JC for her decision! JC needs compassion and consideration right now - not out and out agression and venomous words.

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I agree, but I would go one further. Unless you were standing behind her and saw what was happening first hand, then I don't think she should be judged.

I'm sorry to hear about Arthur, my heart aches for you. :(

I am so sorry. I am sure you did what was the right thing to do. Best wishes to Charlie for a speedy recovery.

I've been reading this thread for a while, and my heart goes out to you for what I know had to have been a really hard decision to have to make. My tiny chihuahua cross (weighs 5lbs soaking wet) got badly attacked by our biggest dog Greta (125lbs) a few months ago. Peanut's eye was popped from the socket, and her jaw was dislocated, but she did recover. Peanut was the instigater in the whole attack, and I now keep her crated when I'm not there to watch.With Greta it was no doubt a corrective nip, but being huge, she doesn't realize her jaw size! Greta is elderly, and a gentle dog, whereas Arthur was already starting to have aggression problems. Sometimes no matter what we do, things can erupt so quickly. Hope things calm down in your home, and that Charlie heals from his wounds.

Rest in peace, Arthur. :(

I have one question and I will say no more. Were both male dogs neutered?

I am SO sorry about what has happened, and I am sorry that you had to put your dear baby down. :( I understand, and I agree that it was the best thing to do for him and for your other pets and for the people involved. I am also sorry for the way you have been treated on PT when you came here for support and comfort but instead you got angry words and belittling, and for that I am truely sorry. :(

With that said, I would just like to say this. I have been reading this thread for awhile, debating wheather or not I should post, and I decided I would. People who aren't standing there, seeing the situation first hand, or aren't INVOLVED in the situation start critizicing without considering peoples feelings or the fact that it has weighed heavily on them, and they did what they thought best. This is EXACTLY one of the reasons that I debated for 2 years wheather or not to join PT. I was afraid, that if I worded something wrong, or said something, or did something wrong I would some nasty replies and some nasty PMs. This is one of the reasons I quite reading PT for awhile and decided to never go back to this website, but after months of not having anything to do with PT, I decided to come back and read things, and it seemed that things had cooled down and people had starting acting civil to each other so I decided to join, but maybe I was wrong. I don't understand what the point is debating wheather or not she should have put Arthur to sleep when there is nothing that can be done or when other people have no control over the situation. i am sorry for going off into a little rampage, but it bothered me and I thought I would say something. Not only are you hurting JC, but you may also be chasing away potentential members of Pet Talk. I do not want people to feel that I am singling anyone out because of their post, but I just feel like I had to say this. There are people who said they didn't agree with it, and they said it nicely, but then there are others that didn't.

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THIS is exactly why I have learned to not come to PT for comfort/advice etc, because you never know what you will get. You could be hurting so much you wish you were dead, and then you turn to a place where you thought you could go for comfort, and you get mean and hateful remarks.

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That's a terribly sad statement. And what makes it even more sad, is that it is absolutely true.

When I have a cute picture or a funny story once in a while, I'll start a thread here. But honestly, I would NEVER come here with a problem or an issue, because I KNOW it would turn into just another "jump on the criticism bandwagon" fiasco. And I know for a fact that Miranda_Rae and I are NOT the only ones who feel this way ... not by a LONG shot.

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And I know for a fact that Miranda_Rae and I are NOT the only ones who feel this way ... not by a LONG shot.

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You're not. I pretty much quit posting here all together. It was causing more stress than it was relieving. :rolleyes: Rottie doesn't even come in here anymore for some of the same reasons, and I used to have to pry her away from this site. :(

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Originally posted by PJ's Mom
You're not. I pretty much quit posting here all together. It was causing more stress than it was relieving. :rolleyes: Rottie doesn't even come in here anymore for some of the same reasons, and I used to have to pry her away from this site. :(

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Same here...

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Originally posted by Tonya
Same here...

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You don't come here very much anymore?:confused:
With over 10 posts per day?
I am only at just over 4 posts a day and have been here for 4 years.
:confused: :confused:

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Originally posted by shais_mom
You don't come here very much anymore?:confused:
With over 10 posts per day?
I am only at just over 4 posts a day and have been here for 4 years.
:confused: :confused:

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actually, I think the post per day is just averaged by how long you've been a member and how many total posts you have. don't mean to get into this, I just noticed that ;)