Do you approve?

I thought this was an insiteful and interesting approach to this whole issue. It was written by a local talk show host (talk radio) in his daily "dispatch" which I get by email every day. He certainly brings up some valid points! :)

Not all marriage is equal



While the rest of the nation mires itself in what is likely going to be an endless debate over same-sex marriage, I'm going to change the subject, and begin a new, equally unpopular campaign on a related issue. I expect no success whatsoever, and very little moral support from people of any political ilk, whether they are liberal, conservative or anything in between.



I don't care because my goal is just and right and fair.



I start with the premise stated simply and succinctly last week in an opinion column published by the Wall Street Journal. The author is Mary Ann Glendon, a professor of law at Harvard University. She stated, "Society gives married couples special benefits because most of them are raising or have raised children -- and research shows that intact families are the most desirable for raising children."



You will find very little disagreement with that statement, either in whole or in part.



1. Society does give special benefits to married couples. That's why other couples want the same benefits. No one likes to be left out.

2. Most married couples either are raising, or have raised children. Not all, but most.

3. Nearly all pertinent research does in fact show that intact families are the most desirable for raising children. The key word there is "intact."



Each of the parts of Ms. Glendon's statement is true and the whole statement is likewise true. Society gives married couples special benefits because most of them are raising or have raised children -- and research shows that intact families are the most desirable for raising children.



Therefore, if society insists on adopting laws for the purpose of benefiting children, it should narrow, not expand, the body of people upon whom it chooses to confer those benefits. In other words, we need to start taking benefits away from many married people, because they don't fit the mold.



The most obvious people who would lose the benefits are those who divorce - people like me. The same research that sings the praises of intact families warns of the destructive nature of divorce. Therefore, divorced parents should lose the child tax credits in the tax code and should not be able to claim their children as exemptions. People should get one shot at the benefits that accompany childrearing. If you stay married to your first spouse, you get lifetime benefits. If you don't, you lose them forever. You can't remarry and recapture your benefits.



What other benefits would you lose? How about inheritance advantages? Why should a man who marries one woman, raises children with her, and then dumps that woman for his young secretary be able to leave his new wife all of his worldly possessions without having to pay inheritance taxes. What did she do for society to deserve that special treatment?



I don't have a complete list of all of the special benefits that society gives to married couples, but it wouldn't take long for a good researcher to find all of them in our laws and for Congress or the states to reserve them for those married couples who meet some objective criteria. Politically, this is next to impossible. It would be like trying to take meat away from a pack of mad dogs. But, it's the only policy that actually fits the consensus reason that society gives benefits to married couples.



A better approach would be for society to mind its own business and quit using laws as leverage for social engineering. But that's even less likely to happen, so we should at least strive for the reward system to make sense. Giving all couples the same benefits based on their marital status makes about as much sense as giving all teachers the same pay based on their degrees.

I have to respectfully disagree. With 6.4 billion people on this earth I think we really should be rewarding those married couples who do not reproduce.

Interesting line of thought though, that's an angle I hadn't looked at before. Thank you for sharing!

-Cathy

Very interestubg, Logan. Thanks for sharing that. There are some good points there to ponder!

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Originally posted by WolfChan
I have to respectfully disagree. With 6.4 billion people on this earth I think we really should be rewarding those married couples who do not reproduce.

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I agree. Scientists say that we are now at our level point. Level, meaning, our population has inclined greatly, and it's only time before we start dieing off, just like with all other animal populations. Just think of lemmings lol. That may be us soon. There are way too many people on the earth.

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posted by wolfsoul
People say that God doesn't like it. Well, if there really is a God, and He made the earth, and He made the people...then He shouldn't complain that He made some of his people gay.

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God did not make people gay. It was a way of life they chose. I don't support gay marriages because God created marriages to join a man and his wife as one. Regardless of who preformes the ceremony it is wrong. A man sleeping with another man is immoral, it is a sin, it is no different than a man performing sexual acts on an animal. We all sin, the difference is I ask for forgiveness and it's forgotten, I also try not to sin.

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God did not make people gay. It was a way of life they chose.

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Please site your source for this. Do you have a scientific study showing this?

In my opinion, it is a decision that the person can take to their deity when they die, and it affects us....not at all!

ITA Twisterdog...I would be very interested to see if anyone can prove that Deity didn't make some people gay. Once again I turn to ancient Greece and their religion....

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Originally posted by KBlaix
God did not make people gay. It was a way of life they chose. I don't support gay marriages because God created marriages to join a man and his wife as one. Regardless of who preformes the ceremony it is wrong. A man sleeping with another man is immoral, it is a sin, it is no different than a man performing sexual acts on an animal. We all sin, the difference is I ask for forgiveness and it's forgotten, I also try not to sin.

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You have GOT to be kidding.

Who in their right mind would choose to be gay knowing the ridicule and suffering they go through at the hands of people like you? That alone is enough to make me believe that being gay is not something you choose.

I too would like to see some evidence to back up your ridiculous statement.

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Originally posted by KBlaix
God did not make people gay. It was a way of life they chose. I don't support gay marriages because God created marriages to join a man and his wife as one. Regardless of who preformes the ceremony it is wrong. A man sleeping with another man is immoral, it is a sin, it is no different than a man performing sexual acts on an animal. We all sin, the difference is I ask for forgiveness and it's forgotten, I also try not to sin.

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I agree. I don't believe God made people gay. I don't need scientific proof for that. The words of God state how much God is against such actions themselves. Science is the research of mankind. While I do believe in most of it, I take God's words before man's words. The research of man can possibly have errors in it. How many times do they do research on certain issues, make a scientific discovery, and later say they were wrong, after further research? It happens all the time. I don't take the words of scientists over the words of God, Who created us and gave us guidelines in life to follow, which I personally, firmly believe in. If the words of scientists contradict the words of God, I don't take them. Whether certain people believe in that or not, that is another issue, but personally, when God Himself has told us how He destroyed the nation of Prophet Lot because of their gay acts, it is very obvious from the Bible/Quran/and other religious books that God is very much against this action. If God *made* people like that, He wouldn't have condemned this as such a huge sin. I'm sorry.......I don't believe God created people gay, and I never will. This is my opinion and no one has the right to condemn me for it. I am not condemning anyone for their opinions either. :)

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I agree. I don't believe God made people gay ... This is my opinion and no one has the right to condemn me for it. I am not condemning anyone for their opinions either. :)

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But see, PCB, that difference in your post and the previous one is that you are saying what you believe and what your opinion is. And you are absolutely correct, no one has the right to call another's beliefs or opinions wrong. It IS wrong, however, to state a belief or an opinion as a matter of fact, as was done in the other post. If you are going to state something as a literal fact ... i.e., "God did not make people gay. It was a way of life they chose.", then you'd better have something concrete to back that up. If you are saying, "My belief is ... My opinion is ...", then that is fine and well, and entirely up to you to belief whatever you choose. You are just stating how you feel, not stating a universal fact.

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Who in their right mind would choose to be gay knowing the ridicule and suffering they go through at the hands of people like you? That alone is enough to make me believe that being gay is not something you choose.

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I agree. Anyone who has ever personally known someone who is gay knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they did not choose to be gay, in any way, shape or form. Most homosexuals are tormented by their "abnormal" thoughts, feelings, emotions and attractions, and try to "change" and stay "in the closet" for years, decades, or sometimes their whole lives.

I have a friend who grew up a devout Catholic, and said he "spent twenty-five years praying every day for God to make me heterosexual, to let me find women attractive" Now, tell me, then, KBlaix ... here is a man who wanted more than anything to be heterosexul, to be "normal", to do what was right in his God's eyes. He prayed about it for twenty-five years, daily. He is still homosexual, of course. How can that be a "choice" he made?

Could you "choose" to become homosexual tomorrow?

God also said, "Judge not, lest ye shall be judged." And, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

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Originally posted by KBlaix
It was a way of life they chose.

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Actually if you read the rest of my statement, people do not choose to be gay. Scientific evidence has proved that levels of stress during pregnancy can cause a baby's testosterone or estrogen levels to decrease. The resulting baby might be homosexual.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
If God *made* people like that, He wouldn't have condemned this as such a huge sin.

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There are alot of things that are sins that we go through in our daily lives. And God maybe didn't "make" you do them, but He certainly gave you the ability to. I say that it shouldn't hurt to add another big "sin". We all hate sometimes, we get angry, we get selfish, we get envious. Being a seamstress, musician, or craftsmen is a sin for cyring out loud. They always say that even if we sin, as long as we believe in God we are forgiven. I know plenty of gay people who believe in God, and in their right minds they are going to Heaven.

Aside from all the scientific evidence that shows homosexuality is genetic, I know in my heart from my close friends who have dealt with this that it is NOT a choice. I've seen up close the pain they have gone through, along with their families. They would give anything to be "normal". The God that I know and love made all of us the way we are and never hates any of the children he made. I simply refuse to believe otherwise and I look forward to knowing my gay friends in Heaven as I know them on earth- only without the horrible influence of rediculous bigotry and persecution. And, let all be clear that God is not too keen on judgementalness and bigotry either.

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They always say that even if we sin, as long as we believe in God we are forgiven.

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That's not fully true. I know poeple who "believe in God" but are not saved. To be saved you need to pray from your heart and ask Jesus to come into your heart, you need to know that Jesus died to save you from your sins. When you know in your heart that Jesus died for you and you accept then you are saved. That's when and only when your sins are forgiven.

Being gay is a choice. Some part of them likes being gay, other wise they wouldn't be. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.- Philippians 4:13 . If they chose God as their way rather than the world then they would have the power to overcome their homosexual desires.

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KBlaix ... here is a man who wanted more than anything to be heterosexul, to be "normal", to do what was right in his God's eyes. He prayed about it for twenty-five years, daily. He is still homosexual, of course. How can that be a "choice" he made?

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He wasn't saved. If you're not saved God can't answer you. Going to church for 25 years doesn't get you into heaven. The only way into heaven is through Jesus.

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Originally posted by KBlaix


He wasn't saved. If you're not saved God can't answer you. Going to church for 25 years doesn't get you into heaven. The only way into heaven is through Jesus.

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But doesn't God love everyone??

If God, in all his greatness, chooses who he will
save, accept, love and forgive, wouldn't that make him just as jaded as we are?

We really should leave God to worry about who is going to be saved and answered. Altho, when I learn to really see into a person's heart I may
not depend on God so much....;)

We are all here on the planet by some funny miracle, we should take more time to see how much we are alike, rather than judging each other on invisible beliefs.

I was in an argumentative mood this morning. They were talking about Gay marriage protests in Utah on the news. I tried to make a nice argument with my mother. It didn't get anywhere, all it ended in was "Are you GAY?" :rolleyes: Can't somebody be ok with gay marriages and not be gay? Ugghhh

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Originally posted by wolfsoul
There are alot of things that are sins that we go through in our daily lives. And God maybe didn't "make" you do them, but He certainly gave you the ability to. I say that it shouldn't hurt to add another big "sin". We all hate sometimes, we get angry, we get selfish, we get envious. Being a seamstress, musician, or craftsmen is a sin for cyring out loud. They always say that even if we sin, as long as we believe in God we are forgiven. I know plenty of gay people who believe in God, and in their right minds they are going to Heaven.

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That is just ridiculous saying that if you believe in God, you can do whatever you want and are going to be saved anyway. Why on earth did God make hell then? Of course God gave us the choice. God gave human beings free choice to test them, to see who is a true believer, and who isn't. God also made Satan. Its part of the test..........to see who is strong enough to keep away from Satan, and who isn't. God gave us free choice, the freedom to judge for ourselves, and make our own decisions. God also made heaven and hell, and trust me, hell is not going to be no empty place. God made it for a reason. Just believing in God doesn't give you a free ticket to heaven. I guarantee you, there will be MANY so-called believers in hell. It isn't enough to say *I believe in God*, and go around disobeying Him in EVERY aspect in life, and then expect Him to forgive you. Why should God forgive you when you never left the sin, and never asked for forgiveness? He has no reason to. God is merciful to those who seek His mercy, not to those who commit sins after sins, and instead of feeling bad about it and seeking His forgiveness, they justify their actions and continue to commit their sins. Such people deserve no forgiveness. To God, sins are crimes, and just as criminals deserve punishment, so do sinners. Homosexuality is no minor sin. It is one of the GREATEST sins a person can commit in God's eyes, in all major religions. It is up to God to judge every person, but who are we to say there are good gays that in their right mind will go to heaven? God has punished gay communities in the past, in this world, and certainly has a more severe punishment waiting for them in the hereafter. Who are we to say the gays today are not going to have to face the same punishment that those before them had to face because of their sins and rejection of God's message brought to them?

That being said, God's doors to forgiveness are always open, and if a person sincerely repents and leaves a sin, even after years of committing it, God WILL forgive that person. The person just has to do it before death knocks at his/her door. ;)

Again, this is my opinion, and I'm not imposing my beliefs on anyone. This is something I feel strongly about, and my feelings will never change on this issue. I don't care if you choose to call me closed-minded because of that. I would rather be closed-minded on such issues than open my mind to what I see as wrong, and get myself a ticket to hell. And, I would like to add, everyone is closed-minded on different issues, just as those of you in favor of gays are closed-minded to why so many others are against it. We're all closed-minded on certain issues. If you don't have a little closed-mindedness in you, you aren't human. :p

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That's not fully true. I know poeple who "believe in God" but are not saved. To be saved you need to pray from your heart and ask Jesus to come into your heart, you need to know that Jesus died to save you from your sins. When you know in your heart that Jesus died for you and you accept then you are saved. That's when and only when your sins are forgiven.

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It boggles and frightens me each time I am reminded that "people" actually still think like this in this day and age. I usually find the least "Christ like" people on earth are those proclaiming to be Christian. :rolleyes: Last I checked judgements on morality were to be left to God. Who are you to pass judgement on anything?

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I would rather be closed-minded on such issues than open my mind to what I see as wrong, and get myself a ticket to hell.

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If we get our tickets together, one of us travels for free!!!!
:D

Alright group. What say we all agree to disagree. These kinds of things never get settled. You have your beliefs. I'll have mine, and we'll agree to sit back and think the other is crazy but not try to change that.
Really, this is bordering on going way out of hand and having people start saying things they can't take back.

*shakes any hand thats out there*

Some of these responses really made me disgusted. :mad: :( :(

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Originally posted by Kfamr
Some of these responses really made me disgusted. :mad: :( :(

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Good for you.

I agree with you 2kitties. Let's all agree to disagree and march out of this thread. There's no use arguing about it. This is a VERY hot topic, and everyone has strong opinions on it, that as far as I can see, isn't going to change on either side of the argument.

*Shakes 2kitties' hand, agrees to disagree, smiles, and waves goodbye to everyone else on the thread* ;)

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Good for you.

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:confused: :confused:

oh well,

I am going to forgo the discount and use my frequent flier miles for my trip.

The HUGE question that I have is WHY IS RELIGION
flaunted as such a great,loving and forgiving vehicle for peace and getting along when all the while it's the followers of ANY religion that turn it into a devisive tool?

Hokay...... __________ is against MY religion but does that make that person any less?
Should I turn my back on an accident because I suspect the person may be a Baptist? Muslim?
Jehovah's Witness?

Should I not hold the door for a woman who has dark hair because I like blondes?

Should I only go to the tellers at the bank because they are women, I don't deal with men tellers?

You religion tells you to that ____________ is against it's basic tenets, but it also tells you
treat everyone the same.

While it may not be on the up and up in God's eyes , He didn't give anyone the go ahead to smite and judge people because they are different.

Leave it to your God, He's far more qualified to sort out the bad seeds...

Again, Let he without sin cast the first stone....
Straight up in the air and pray that the rock don't land on your head.

Richard, I'd be glad to get a ticket with you, you can travel for free. That post was great. "Bravo."

I'm not religious or anything so I want to know why it's such a big "sin" to be gay? (Please don't just say "because god wants it that way"...I don't find that to be a valid argument, i want to know WHY he wants it that way...and I know that it says somewhere that he wants marriage to be between a man and a woman but WHY?) Why keep people who love each other apart? I thought god was about love forgiveness.

I'm 100% for gay marriages. If people love each other then let them get married. It saddens me that this even has to be an issue, I mean why can't we just let them be happy together?

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Originally posted by PepperRSM
Please don't just say "because god wants it that way"

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Let's take 'god' out of the equation.

Now,
What happens to the arguement? There is none.
It become a purely personal opinion..

Now, should you bring the 'natural' arguement up......

What is natural??? Well, pretty much anything..

Since,
Love knows no bounds, colors, size, distance or genders......

There goes THAT arguement!!

That means 50% of the discussion is wrong......

I'll let you guess which 50...;)

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Speaking of 50%...

K,

Let's split the freebie, o.k.?:D

Those of you who don't agree with us "religious" types need to at least respect our opinions. I don't see anyone trying to overcome your opinions, just stating their own.

If anyone is bold enough in this group to state that they are "against" gay marriages, allow them to do so!!! I've actually remained quiet because all of my arguments are religiously based, and I don't want to get into the fray.

But, I do accept and appreciate what any of you have to say, regardless of your stance. And so many of you are very well spoken! Allow some leniency here for those of differing opinons to state their too!!!

I do respect your opinions, sorry if it doesn't really seem that way, discussions make me a little....harsh I guess you could say. So, sorry and sorry in advance if I say anything else mean/hurtful.

I'm just wondering why god wants it that way. I'm actually interested in those of you who are into religion, because I don't really know anything about it. I want to know what you've been taught about why god wants it this way.

I'm just curious, that's all. I just want to understand it from your side.

I respect your opinions and I understand that you follow as 'God says', but I don't understand how some are able to support the law, and basically say that their beliefs, opinions, and such are meant for everyone. As if everyone has to follow by them. And that's exactly what banning Gay marriages, and what most religious people's "arguments" are doing or saying.

I'm not judging gays, or hating them. I know gay people, and don't hate them. They are simply miss-led and lost, like most of you. God does want all of us in heaven with him, however gave us that choice.

Being Gay is not a "big sin" there are no big or small sins in Gods eye, they are all just sins. However it's our sins that condemn people to an eturnity in hell. People put the lable "Big" on it.

Not even to get into the argument but..I totally agree with it. :) I have a strong belief in God but I just don't see the problem here. God allowed me to have free will which means I am able to have my own opinions on certain things. That's how I feel, anyhow.

That's all I'm going to say.

I don't understand why it's a sin, though. Why is it wrong to be gay? Why does god want it that way?

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Originally posted by PepperRSM
I don't understand why it's a sin, though. Why is it wrong to be gay? Why does god want it that way?

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God wants it that way because God created two different genders.......male and female, and wants both genders to be who they are. Being gay is against manhood/womanhood. Males aren't supposed to attract males, or vice versal, just like the same poles on a magnet don't attract each other...they repel, but the opposite poles attract. From a religious point of view, God did not make anyone gay. Just like God did not make anyone a thief, or a murderer, etc. They choose their own lifestyle. When one gets so involved in sin, they get addicted, and begin to think it is a part of them. Satan is around all the time and will always continue to push people into committing sins. When they become so addicted to what they are doing, they begin to think its a part of them, and close their minds to changing, or repenting. You know how you all say its hard to leave smoking once you start? Same thing. Its hard to leave sinning once you start. It certainly isn't who they are, but who they made themselves to be.

So, in answer to your question, God wants us to be who He made us. He doesn't want us to change His creation, and being gay is changing the manhood or womanhood that God created in us.

I hope this answers your question, though there are other reasons too. I just don't want to get into an argument, but I don't want to leave your question unanswered either. I respect all of you for having your opinions and wish that you would all have the same respect for others too.

*waves goodbye again* (I only returned so your question doesn't remain unanswered) :o

While I do try hard to understand those who are against homosexulaity due to religious reasons, I don't understand how or why the law has to follow these religious reasonings. There is "supposed" to be a seperation of church and state. Growing up I was told that America's values were based and equal rights for all citizens. It wasn't until I got older that I learned things don't work that way. Not allowing gay marriages isn't going to stop gay couples from living together and raising children. Personally I would rather see a married gay couple raising a child than an unmarried gay couple raising a child. But sadly that may never happen because people don't know how to keep their own religious beliefs out of our laws. I personally don't see this issue as Bush allowing or not allowing gay marriages. But it's an issue of Bush wanting to take away/not give equal rights to all citizens.

Very good points, Laura. I was hoping you'd chime in :)

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Originally posted by KBlaix
They are simply miss-led and lost, like most of you.

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I support gay marriage and am not misled, nor lost.

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Very good points, Laura. I was hoping you'd chime in

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I usually try to stay away from these thread as much as possible.

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Originally posted by aly



I support gay marriage and am not misled, nor lost.

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Aren't those GPS things the best?;)

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Originally posted by aly
Very good points, Laura. I was hoping you'd chime in :)




I support gay marriage and am not misled, nor lost.

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Ditto on both comments!


LMAO, Richard! :D

Wow! I`ve never had such a popular thread!!

Richard. Richard, Richard, Richard! You made me look at this in a completely different way! Thanks!! :D You`re right with out god there would be absolutley NO argument, at all! People say it`s a sin.

Is it a sin when you marry the one you love. That`s all it is. Just with the same sex. It`s not a sin!!! What`s so sinful? That`s the only part I`m not understanding now.

I respect the opinions of others but I just don`t understand them.