Ugh... WTF????

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Originally posted by kevinrats
Did you also know that no culture or religion in the history of the world has condoned gay marriage?

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THAT is the single biggest load of BS I have ever seen! Have you ever taken a cultural anthropology or a human sexuality class?

There are many cultures where homosexuality is accepted and/or encouraged, past AND present!

The ancient Greeks believed that humans used to be double-creatures, with four arms and four legs. The gods feared these creatures and split them in two. They said that each person spent his or her entire life earching for their other half. Guess what? Some of these were male-male, some female-female, and some female-male.

In Melanesia, homosexuality is practised ritually among the men.

I could come up with more examples with very little research if you want.

Also, homosexuality is found ALL OVER the animal kingdom. I think everyone should pick up and read "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity", it's really informative. So many species have same-sex vourtship and lifelong pair-bonding. Two male flamingos will mate for life, build nests together, and the females in the group will lay eggs in the nests of those males for them to raise.

Homosexuality is also found in primates, canines, felines, bears, equestrians, etc. It is a perfectly natural part of life. All life.

Even if homosexuality had been taboo in ALL past and present cultures....so were female rights, in most, up until recently. Heck, some countries still treat their women like property. Don't forget that women in this country couldn't vote until ~85 years ago. Because almost every culture in the world believed men superior, does that make it true? (i'm not some crazy feminist or anything, I just thought it was a good example)

I don't hate Christians. I hate closed-minded people, or people who want to cut off other peoples' happiness over something that doesn't affect them. Someone dear to me was having trouble recently with being Catholic and also being very socially liberal. He ended up deciding that it was OK and he's happy with his decisions, which are his to work out with his deity. After all, nobody will ever agree with anything 100%. If we did, life would be boring. :)

As posted in the other thread about abortion, these were resonably calm discussions until our hostile new member arrived. I've already used the wonderful ignore feature. If more of us would use it, we could stop these people before they start.

You all made great points. Very well said, Twister.

I can relate, Fox-gal. I've always had aquaintances here and there that were homosexual. It didn't matter either way for me. I would have previously said "What's the big deal."

But I've became close friends with an honest hard working couple over the past few years. They have a son (long explanation) that is 13. Over the past five years that I've been close to them, I have seen them go through so much difficulty and heartache. It really made me think and respect homosexuality so much more. I could not imagine being in love with Mike, but not being able to discuss it with my family or friends. I could not imagine having to lie at work about a make believe boyfriend so that you don't get discriminated against. I could not imagine the heartache I'd feel if my child came home from baseball practice upset because he was treated unequally since he has two mothers. I couldn't imagine having the urge to hug or kiss my husband in front of my parents, yet not doing it "out of respect for them". I totally understand why there are gay pride parades and whatnot. It's where they can feel comfortable being themselves. -Not worry about being taunted or stared at.

And those things are all trivial compared to what could happen. If tragedy were to happen, I would feel so hopeless if I couldn't make decisions for my loved one. I may not even be allowed in the hospital room because I'm not a relative. And then, if something does happen, I may be left in the cold financially. Even though we'd shared a home together for many years. The list goes on and on.


I'm probably rambling and repeating what everyone else has said, sorry. I just feel really strongly about this. All I want to see is for people to marry for true love. Not for publicity, not on impulse, not just for financial gain...just marry for good old fasion love.

Everyone is so eloquent!

I remember when my ex-boss went on a trip and reutrned all tan - with a hint of gold gleam on his left hand. His partner came in that moring and I pulled him aside, I asked, "what is that I see?" They got married on vacation! I was so happy for them! They had a lot of problems with families not accepting, that they decided to throw caution aside and just "do it." I can't imagine either man with a different person. They completed each other so perfectly.

I can't imagine what life would have been like if my family didn't approve of my husband... as it was, I knew my brother and his wife didn't like him too much. That hurt, so I can't imagine what it would be like if everybody in the world felt the same way.

I also think I'm the one who spurred the Christianity Hate comment. I mentioned the people who are compelled to quote the Bible. I felt it was a good point, and would say it again. Am I Christian? You bet. Very Catholic. I will at one point today get my ashes and not feel like a hypocrite. God just wants us to love one another. It is he that is to do the judging.

And, I have never used the ignore button. I just might elect the new guy be my first. I guess he chooses the "ignorance is bliss" way of stumbling through life.

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Originally posted by catnapper
And, I have never used the ignore button. I just might elect the new guy be my first.

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Don't worry, I use it enough for both of us! :p

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Originally posted by kevinrats


If that was true, then why are gay people fighting? Shouldn't they just stay behind closed doors?

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are you trying to say we hould just lock them up like animals just so that people who don't agree with it don''t have to see them?

Troll: noun

Person who stirs trouble for the laughter of it. Often antagonistic. Characteristics may include false identification. For example, one who bills himself as a 14 year old boy yet speaks the rhetoric of someone older. Clearly not who he says he is. Other characteristics may include social misfit who finds attention gaining outlets online.

Remedy for troll: Ignore feature.

Very well said, 2kitties!

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Originally posted by 2kitties
Troll: noun

Person who stirs trouble for the laughter of it. Often antagonistic. Characteristics may include false identification. For example, one who bills himself as a 14 year old boy yet speaks the rhetoric of someone older. Clearly not who he says he is. Other characteristics may include social misfit who finds attention gaining outlets online.

Remedy for troll: Ignore feature.

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Yep. Don't feed them and they will die off. :)

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Originally posted by Corinna
I have a few gay friends. I too enjoy being with them. But first marraige was "invented" in the bible so it is a religous ceramony. a civil uioun is a govenmental and legal part . So a wedding is a relious ceramony, so it is a moral situation. I have lots of stright friends who have a civil ceramiony.
Logan I too am old fashioned, my gay friends all accept my ideas we just don't talk about it and I don't comment on their lifestyles . we just enjoy the company of each person in the group.

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The word Marriage perhaps. Handfastings and such, which are the same thing, have been around much longer.

Ok once again. Wow. I just loved so many of these posts and the discussion. It is my understanding...and I am not well versed in the Bible..but marriage in the Bible is defined as a union before God between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation.

Having said that...does that mean that marriages such as mine are invalid because we do not intend to procreate???:eek:

If not then...it is way past time to seperate the two. My husband and I were married by the Mayor of our little town of Port Matilda. It was a legal cival union that is binding. I don't see any reason whatsoever that the same can't be done for homosexual couples. We decided this because my husband is Jewish and I am Neo-pagan. We love one another and wish to spend our lives together. But you know what...we had to get married...he is also Canadian and I am American...and for him to remain here and work we HAD to be married. SO! My point in this rambling is if the government can insist 2 people perform a civil ceremony in order to be able to live and work in this country then they can darn well allow homosexuals to do the same.

Take the religon out of our government. It has no business being there at all!!! Leave the religon in the churches and the legality in the government.

Not sure if I said that right but....yea...that is what I mean...;)

Denyce

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Originally posted by WolfChan


There are many cultures where homosexuality is accepted and/or encouraged, past AND present!

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My stepbrother lives in Australia with the aboregenees (sp?) and all the men there are gay. The only reason they have intercourse with women is to reproduce.

To quote my momma,
Who has always put complex issues into simple, everyday adages - that are crude - and make a whole lot more sense than arguing specific points about an issue.

"who cares what anyone does, as long as they don't use my rear end......"

And, once again,

Why should 'gays' be made to miss all the great things about marriage?

Abuse, cheating, money problems, work issues, leaving the toilet seat up, cooking, laundry, dusting, taking the trash out.....

It's a non issue......let's take care of the Troops, the price of gas, kicking OBL's rear end and
those pesky weapons of mass destruction-----
Janet Jackson, Britney Spears, Kobe Bryant, Martha Stewart, Mike Eisner, Kenneth Lay and Alex Rodriguez, J-lo (LOLOLOLOLOL), Puff Nitwit and that wonderful Congressperson from New Mexico, the
"honorable" Heather Wilson......

Oops!

And the Catholic Church should have quite a bit to say about homosexuality......:eek:

After all, they are still 'paying' for it....

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Originally posted by Denyce
Having said that...does that mean that marriages such as mine are invalid because we do not intend to procreate???:eek:
Denyce

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Boy under the Bible's definition, my husband and I are in an unlawful marriage too. We have the three kids from the first marriage. They are almost out of highschool... why on Earth would we want another 20 years of children when in 4 years we can be selfish and enjoy each other by ourselves.

Besides, I thought over-population was a world-wide epidemic. Marriage was set to protect the human race and inteneded to make it grow... grow we did! Now we have all sorts of problems of overcrowding, lack of food & Medicine... boy I'm swerving off topic, but you get my point.

Another side note: how many of you have actually read the Bible? Its actually pretty funny when you read starting at Genesis. There they describe in detail the contructon of the Earth. Later, we found out the Earth was round, not what those wise men said when the Bible was written. It was written as a form of explanation in a time when none other existed. It was written as a guide to help people make sense of things that seemed senseless. As we progress scientifically, I think that humanity needs to take a look at what is written and put it into context of WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN. We are human, we live and grow. Now, I don't want this debate to take a wild turn to bashing the Bible. invaluable lessons are taught in it.

I feel inclined to add my two cents to this conversation. I have always thought that the government, being the morally challenged corrupt mass that it is, has NO right to be dictating what people should or should not do in their own private lives.

It enrages me that the Bush administration even thinks they have the right to push for this. What happened to freedom? It does not exist anymore. And so much for separation of Church and State.

As for Christianity and its views on marriage being valid/invalid due to the choice to procreate or not procreate, well, don't even get me STARTED on that B.S.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: !!!!

Well said Richard!!

It seems that we all have an opinion about this matter, right or wrong, and the President obviously feels strongly too. He does not have the authority to make this decision on his own, obviously, but like all of us, he is standing up for what he believes, whether we agree with him or not. Just a thought. I suppose that even when you're President of the US, you're entitled to your opinion. :p

How about we all go have a gay marriage then go watch The Passion- only if I can sit next to a pedophile priestm, a child abuser, a murder, an adulterer and card carrying members of the NRA and KKK...and throw in Monica Lewinsky on the lap of an Ex-president

...Did I get them all in there?

Logan....in the past President Bush has said that his belief was that this should be an issue left to the states...i.e. State's Rights. Now he supports a constitutional amendment.

I realize we all have the right to change our mind, but I am curious as to what has occurred to cause him to changes his mind since the last election???

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Originally posted by 2kitties
How about we all go have a gay marriage then go watch The Passion- only if I can sit next to a pedophile priestm, a child abuser, a murder, an adulterer and card carrying members of the NRA and KKK...and throw in Monica Lewinsky on the lap of an Ex-president

...Did I get them all in there?

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lololol, I see at least three discounts.

Under age kids, seniors and a group rate......;)

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Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Logan....in the past President Bush has said that his belief was that this should be an issue left to the states...i.e. State's Rights. Now he supports a constitutional amendment.

I realize we all have the right to change our mind, but I am curious as to what has occurred to cause him to changes his mind since the last election???

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I don't know the answer to that, Sarah, but maybe in time, he will explain it further. Perhaps he is taking a stronger stance because of what has been happening in CA in the last few weeks. I just don't know. :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Logan
because of what has been happening in CA in the last few weeks. I just don't know. :rolleyes:

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It has nothing to do with what happens IN Cah-lee-fuh-nee-ah.....It's been going on for a long time.....we are able to keep secrets, that's all ;)


It's all a clever ploy by the GWB campaign braintrust to win over the biblethumping, conservative, Bible Belt, middle of the road,
did I mention the Bible???? demographic.:confused:

This is actually really funny.

You post something in the doghouse. Under that it says CONTROVERSIAL topics.

Then, when I, actually start a controversy (GASP!) I get called a troll, and an 80 year old man or something, or at least not who I say I am.
And I have not put down any of down for your beliefs and values, so you you stop doing it to me? It would be much appreciated.


Well, I am a 15 year old freshman in high school. All I am doing is stating my opinion. Is that terrible? I guess.

I have mixed up some of my messages. I am sorry. Really. But I am a freshman, not out of highschool like most of you. I am not too smart, and I am trying to argue my opinion. Its hard for me.

It is my opinion. Please get this straight, because you don't seem to get it now.

Is being 15 and a freshman your excuse? :confused:

Um, no actually Kfamr. As you will read above, they called me a troll posing as a 14 year old. I just wanted to clarify.

LOLOL- oKay.

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Originally posted by kevinrats
Um, no actually Kfamr. As you will read above, they called me a troll posing as a 14 year old. I just wanted to clarify.

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Cool, we can get you into the movie with your student ID!

The arguement at hand is actually more complex than just 'gay' marriage, the government and constitutional amendments....

One of the biggest problems is the "Jesus loves everyone" line that everyone uses.....

Well, if Jesus loves everyone,does that leave
us humans to hate each other while we believe in his teachings????

I am trying to figure that one out.:confused:

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How about we all go have a gay marriage then go watch The Passion- only if I can sit next to a pedophile priestm, a child abuser, a murder, an adulterer and card carrying members of the NRA and KKK...and throw in Monica Lewinsky on the lap of an Ex-president

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Oh! 2kitties I would rather find out my child was homosexual than to find them to be the above mentioned. I think Homosexuality is just a class of people like we are. I would not even put them in the same catagory as the child abusers, KKK, NRA, etc. But I do get your point.

just sarcasm, trayi

Okay. Since you keep bringing this up, do you want to know what the Bible says about gay relationships and gay marriage?

It says that being gay is not a sin. It says specifically that acting on being gay, like having relations with other men/women is a sin.

And who used the "Jesus Loves Everyone" line?

I'm sure this will just fuel the fire.

Alright, if we want to get all biblical, then let's take of the gloves.
If we are going to go so far as to take what the bible says as literal, as you seem to want to do Kevin, then let's go ahead and amend the Constitution based on it.

The US Constitutional Marriage Amendment.....
A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines, in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe, and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your town, it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with him (even ifhe had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men young and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of course, this rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)

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Originally posted by kevinrats


It says that being gay is not a sin. It says specifically that acting on being gay, like having relations with other men/women is a sin.

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Forget the Jesus Loves Everyone......I have...


Now you can THINK you are gay but when you ACT on it you are a sinner....


NOW.....What does the rule say about having 'impure thoughts'???

I asked alot of people in school today what the thought of Gay Marriages and everything of the sort.

Even the most religious people I know, people who go to church, people who wear crosses religiously.. Said there's nothing bothering them with it so why not?

Alot also brought up stuff like a person in a gay couple to be there with their partner and make decisions if they've gotten seriously hurt or ill.


I really just don't understand why or how it bothers some people. It's not like they're trying to marry you, corrupting our society, or hurting anyone psyhically. Mentally, maybe - but that's their fault.

Most people who are against it don't even have a fight or an argument against it. They say it's wrong, they say it's against 'God'. Well, not everyone believes in that. They have their rights to believe in it, but they have no right to stop two people of the same sex from loving each other and owning a peice of paper saying they're legally married.


And really, if we're going to go about the Bible with everything that happens in the world, many many things should be 'banned'.

There's far more things in this world that people should take their time with other than worrying what John and Steve, or Mary and Louelle are doing with their lives.

Impure thoughts is under adultery in the ten commandments for everyone.

If a man even thinks of a woman in an impure way, he has already committed adultery with her and needs to repent.

Thats what it says about impure thoughts.

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Originally posted by Kfamr

Most people who are against it don't even have a fight or an argument against it. They say it's wrong, they say it's against 'God'. Well, not everyone believes in that.

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Exactly. Not everyone believes in god. So why should they have others beliefs shoved down their throat, and not be able to do something because others see differently?

Dans mother is a lesbian. Although I don't agree with it who am I to judge? No one. It's not my place to do so. If there truly is a God and what they are doing is wrong, leave it up to God to decide what to do in the end.

whoa,

The ten commandments only apply to the people who
believe in them.

So how can you apply those rule to everyone else?

You said it's o.k. to think you are gay-but isn't that the same as 'impure thoughts'?

Just checking..

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2K,
F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's
widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe, and be otherwise punished in a
manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

Shouldn't the punishment be for a woman to give away her shoes???;)

Well said Cass!

RICHARD, first off, when did I say they apply to everyone? I personally think they do, but I know you don't.

Impure thoughts-Thinking sexually about something, having sex with them, lusting for them, etc.

If you think/know you're gay, that's fine in itself. But when you start lusting for other men/women (don't worry. This same law applys to straight men/women.) it becomes sinful.

Since you bring this up, I am just stating what the Bible says.

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Originally posted by kevinrats
RICHARD, first off, when did I say they apply to everyone? I personally think they do, but I know you don't.

Impure thoughts-Thinking sexually about something, having sex with them, lusting for them, etc.

If you think/know you're gay, that's fine in itself. But when you start lusting for other men/women (don't worry. This same law applys to straight men/women.) it becomes sinful.

Since you bring this up, I am just stating what the Bible says.

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You may, but not everyone feels the same way you do. Not everyone should have to comform to YOUR beliefs.

I lust all the time. For those new pair of Adidas shoes, Tom from Blink 182! :D I am sure you lust too. How many times have you complained to your mom for that new Sony Playstation game because you are lusting for it? If she finally gives in and you play the game, are you going to hell?