Banning docking of tails......in nz....

K9soul- I also don't think that it is necessary to crop a bloodhouds or bassets ears.....just b/c they are heavy. I was just "stating" that a dog with upright ears is less likely to have ear infections than dogs with long heavy ears. I was not saying to just crop them all to prevent ear infection.
And yes I do agree with what you have said, about "if no one would have ever started this then everyone would be use to the way the dog "really" looks in its natural state." But thats not what happened in the past and we can't change that. If someone likes cropped ears...I feel they shound't be criticized for liking it.
I just feel like just because I like the look of cropped ears and I did my dogs ears....that you take me as a cruel, unhearted person towards mine n' others animals. Which is totally wrong....as I love all my animals to death n' would do anything for them. Yes cropping is a painful procedure, but its NOT cruel.
Im sorry if thats not the way any you guys took this....but that how I feel you did.

Casey

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Originally posted by GSDgurl
for them. Yes cropping is a painful procedure, but its NOT cruel.

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Uhh...then what's cruel in your dictionary? :confused:
Oh well. People have their own opinions.

Thank you for all your interesting comments, it has helped me now to form an opinion, I also had not heard of ear-cropping before and am glad to see its illegal in NZ.

I agree with what some others have voiced, if its just for cosmetic reasons, and causes the animal pain and suffering, then I am AGAINST it!!

As for our farm dogs, they never had their tails docked and no injury's ever happened either.

Most of the cattle here have their tails docked and sheep as well, and as you know we have a lot of sheep in NZ.

I think the bill will go ahead, despite a lot of objections from dog owner's, but we shall see.

I would never ever object my pet to un-necessary pain, just to show them, or because I thought it looked good, and yes if it goes ahead I guess dog shows will just be showing dogs with tails from now on.

You know I always thought cocker spaniels and dobermans were born that way, I never knew their tails were docked, naive I know, but honestly thats the truth.
:o

i love my little Jesse's docked tail. whenever she wags her tail; which is all the time, her cute, little butt wiggles all over. :D :D :D

GSDgurl, I don't feel you are a personally cruel, unloving pet mom. I hate the procedure and I don't like that it is done for looks, but I don't feel someone is a cruel person who has it done. It's hard to explain. My feelings are totally toward the actual procedure, I wouldn't feel hatred towards you or someone else who has had it done. I don't like that the AKC still promotes it, it seems like they are one of the only big kennel clubs left who still do so.

I guess I feel it's very important that people research and get the facts about it, the fact that it is indeed painful for the dog. I am betting a lot of people who have it done are told it's minor and maybe even that it isn't very painful, but from my research, the ears are one of the most sensitive places on a dog's body. The ears are packed with nerve endings and the pup's ears are quite tender.

As far as cruelty, well, I don't know if I would necessarily label it as animal cruelty in the sense of what I think of as cruelty. If it is done correctly, the pup goes in and is under anesthetic. He/she wakes up and probably has sore ears but does not understand why or understand that they are hurting in order to have a more pleasing look to their person. They aren't being beaten, traumatized with fear and real cruelty, if you see what I mean. They may be loved and adored and spoiled just like my pups, and live the rest of their lives in a wonderful loving home. That is why I don't classify it as cruelty, but to me it IS a mutilation and unnecessary.

I'm trying to be careful how I word things here, because I have no desire to attack anyone personally or pass any personal judgements by any means at all. It is the procedure I do not like and am against, not the people who have had it done.

I'd just encourage anyone to learn all about it that they can, and seriously consider it. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind here, but if I can help inform a few facts that maybe someone did not know, then I am very glad to have spent the time to communicate those. :)

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Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Uhh...then what's cruel in your dictionary? :confused:
Oh well. People have their own opinions.

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Oh, it's painful and unnecessary, but it's not cruel, right? :rolleyes: :p :p

These are from previous threads about cropping ears...

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Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver

"There is NO proven medical benefit to cropping, It has never been scientifically proven that it will cut down on the amount of ear infections by increasing ventilation of the ear canal. Keeping the ears clean from dirt and debris is the job of every dog owner, it's basic maintenance, regardless if the dog is cropped or uncropped."
----quoted from HERE

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Originally posted by Kfamr
Here's a great site I found which I agree to what it has to say about cropping ears.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/earc.html


Not only is it painful but it's normally just for looks.

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Originally posted by Shelteez2
Ear infections is a phoney reason to get it done. Many breeds with floopy ears are prone to ear infections (spaniels and some retrievers) and others are not. I work at a groomers and dogs with cropped ears can be just as dirty, gunky and infected as those whose ears aren't cropped.
Ear infections actually have a lot to do with diet IMO. I never clean my shelties ears, ever. They don't need it.
If you are going to get them cropped, be truthful and say it would be for aesthetic reasons. You want them cropped for the look.

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I hope you two don't mind that I quoted you. :)

K9soul- I understand where your coming from.

As for Golden n' Kfamr- What you n' I cosider cruel may be different. I'll get you an incite. What "I" consider cruel is cutting the dogs ears n' not even put under, beating your dog, starving them, etc. The dog is put under, so they don't fell any pain till they get up. They come home n' the only thing that bothered my dog was his "POST." You can also get pain pills to prevent them from having pain n' believe me....I did. So don't try n' argue with me....Thank you. See these are the people that don't like a person like me...b/c they believe I put my dog in a cruel position.
And Golden- Thats good you know everyone has their own opinion.....so why did you even ask??:confused:
And Kfamr- I don't need someone to repeat thangs...:rolleyes:

I'm sorry, didn't know I was repeatin' thangs. :rolleyes:


I was just giving reliable sources from where I base my opinion. ('n maybe where others are coming from.)

I wasn't talking about the sources....I didn't know they were up at the time I was typing this:) I was talking about this.....

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Oh, it's painful and unnecessary, but it's not cruel, right?

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Originally posted by GSDgurl
I wasn't talking about the sources....I didn't know they were up at the time I was typing this:) I was talking about this.....

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Ummm.. Okay.


I wasn't directing that comment towards you, I was directing it towards Julie. Hence the reason I quoted her.

Like I said, i'm sorry that I seem to repeating thangs.

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Originally posted by GSDgurl
And Golden- Thats good you know everyone has their own opinion.....so why did you even ask??:confused:

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It was just a statement. I was confused by that.

Yikes, seems this turned into a big debate!

I gave my opinions, but I would like to say that I dont think docking OR cropping is defined as "cruel" cruel would be a bit different, because they heal from both of these things, they forget them, and theyre still happy, healthy dogs, and I dont think its cruel for people to want them to look standard

And like fox-gal said, about her boxers, Jasper also would clear tables, whip people, get his tail caught in doors...etc if he didnt have it docked, and he was only 4 days old, it hurt for a second, there was no bone or anything, he forgot it in a bit and I dont think thats cruel at all, and its better then getting a home/self docking with a door...

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Originally posted by DogLover9501
and its better then getting a home/self docking with a door...

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Eh.. Generally I make sure my dogs (tails and all) are completely through the door before I close it! :p :p

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Originally posted by Kfamr
Eh.. Generally I make sure my dogs (tails and all) are completely through the door before I close it! :p :p

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Yeah me too..no tail choppin at my place! :p

Well our german shepard cut his tail off in a door by himself, Im not saying Im going to shut the door on their tails, but it happens, like when children are around or if the wind blows the door shut..etc

When I posted in this thread this afternoon, I said to myself, "I'll bet my right arm, when I get back online this evening we will have yet another repetitive, back and forth, argument that is going nowhere and accomplishing nothing in this thread, complete with many, many posts followed by this assinine smilie: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: "

And I was right! I am psyshic! Twisterdog The Great ... seer of all Battles of the Junior High Mentality. Would anyone like their fortune read? ;)

When Karen and Paul get back, I'm going to suggest that they eliminate this STUPID thing from the site: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I am SO sick and tired of some people following almost every one of their posts with it. It is rude and condescending. If you were having a conversation with someone in person, would you roll your eyes like that at them when they said something you didn't agree with?

And, to keep the thread on topic .... dogs injure their tails ALL the time. In doors, by wagging them up against things, by playing rough with another dog, by hunting, by herding, etc. I see thousands and thousands of dogs every year, and YES, dogs DO injure their tails quite often.

Yep, I think it was on page 2 that I asked if this needed to go to the doghouse. I haven't said anything more about it. Just been observing....

I don't understand what that was all about --

But generally yes, topics like this get heated, including declawing, breeding, and topics like that.

DogLover- I agree with you 100% that docking n' cropping are not cruel. They heal n' their just happy, healthy pups, like everyone elses dogs.

Golden- Everything that causes pain is not cruel.....if you think pain is cruel......don't you think spaying and neutering your dog is pain??

Twisterdog- I agree about the ":rolleyes: :rolleyes:" Personally when you see a person reply with them, its like you already know their being rude. I also believe anything to do with docking, cropping, dewclaw removing, n' lets go ahead n' say fixing your dog to.....since it does cause pain to your animal. Should be sent to the "Doghouse"

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It is rude and condescending. If you were having a conversation with someone in person, would you roll your eyes like that at them when they said something you didn't agree with?

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Oh, exactly, it is much different here, but I have not shown any disrespect because just because I am not speaking to you all in person, doesnt mean Im going to be rude, I respect everyones opinions, they have a right to think and believe whatever they want, as other people aren't as open minded.

Also GSDgurl, thanks for agreeing ;) And I know alot of people will say "NO spaying and neutering isn't cruel because its for reasons" but docking are for reasons, and even if cropping is usually/always for cosmetic reasons, its the same as plastic surgery, peircings, tattoos...etc, and all that stuff is for looks and isnt considered cruel to us, and we all heal from all of those things, and are happy, so theres not a HUGE difference except with those things its our choice, and the dogs dont get a choice, but how do you know the dogs wouldnt rather have standing ears? ;) :D

Well, about ear croping and tail docking...

I think for show dogs tail docking is OK...But I think those dobies and great danes , for example, look better without croped ears...

I don´t think docking and croping tails and ears isn´t cruel..

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Originally posted by GSDgurl
Golden- Everything that causes pain is not cruel.....if you think pain is cruel......don't you think spaying and neutering your dog is pain??

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No, that's not what I'm saying
Like I said before tail docking and ear cropping is done for looks. If it was done for the purpose of health issues (which have not been proven) then I can understand. Spaying and Neutering is done to decrease the population, so less dogs and cats end up in shelters. It's also been proven to expand the life of the animal, by decreasing the risk of cancers. So, it is done for health reasons, and for the care of the animal. (dog)

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You know I always thought cocker spaniels and dobermans were born that way, I never knew their tails were docked, naive I know, but honestly thats the truth.

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LOL ... don't feel bad. I had a customer once who thought Scottish terriers (Scotties) were just born looking how they do for dog shows, she had no idea you had to get them groomed.

She brought her dog in so I could look at it, because she thought the breeder sold her a furry black mutt, and called it a Scotty, and she wanted me to back her up when she tried to get her money back.

I told her that he looked like a purebred to me, but of course it was hard to tell for sure until he was groomed. She gave me the funniest look and said, "You groom them?" She felt SO stupid. LOL

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I also believe anything to do with docking, cropping, dewclaw removing, n' lets go ahead n' say fixing your dog to.....since it does cause pain to your animal. Should be sent to the "Doghouse"

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Well, I have to disagree with that. Most of us ... say 99% of us ... can have a debate about these potentially controversial subjects, and not have it turn into an argument. There's always one or two people, however, that have to turn threads like this one - no, actually any thread - into a petty argument. That doesn't mean, IMO, that every thread that one or two people start an immature argument in needs to go to the Doghouse. I think we all just need to start being more assertive and saying, "Hey. Stop it. We had a good, open, friendly debate going here until you came in and tried to turn it into a petty fight." Just MHO.

There's nothing wrong with debate. Debate is how you learn. Debate is also open-minded, and fun. Debate means making a statement only when you have relevant facts to contribute. Argument, on the other hand, is replying to every single post you don't agree with, whether you have any new useful information to contribute or not. Argument is saying, repeatedly, "I don't agree. You are wrong. If you don't have the same opinion as me, then you must be mean/cruel/stupid, whatever". (Obviously not in so many words, but always implied well enough to hurt feelings or infuriate.) Argument is also being snotty, mean or sarcastic - while debate is being calm and factual.

You can correct someone's facts, if they are wrong, or contribute new facts, and that is debate. But you can never, ever correct someone's opinion, because opinion is not "right" or "wrong", and can't be corrected. Trying to change or correct someone's opinion is one sure mark of a petty argument just for the sake of argument.

I did not start this thread so that some people could start an argument with each other, nor do I see any reason for it to be shifted to the Dog House..

My main purpose was to tell you all who own dogs, what is happening in my country and to get opinions from you all, I thought maybe some of you might just be interested ,and I really do not know much about it, so please donot feel the need to personally attack anyone, we all differ on this subject, and I wanted this to be a healthy debate, that's all.

If this turns nasty I will feel it best to delete it, but I don't wish to do that, as it's interesting to hear everyone's point's of views, and as for the roll you eyes emoticon, I have NEVER EVER used it in the almost one year I have been here, and I never will, I donot find it necessary to use it to get my point across.