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Richard,Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
...But I do realize the leaps we have made in medicine from those processes...
Ah, could you flesh out that argument a little more for me, huh?
Just go ahead a list all these great improvements in the medical
field gained through animal vivisection, o.k.? Take your time, I'll
wait.
Eggs to make vaccines,Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
Richard,
Ah, could you flesh out that argument a little more for me, huh?
Just go ahead a list all these great improvements in the medical
field gained through animal vivisection, o.k.? Take your time, I'll
wait.
Pig heart valves, Pig skin for burn victims.
Chimps testing artificial hearts.
Growing human parts on rats.
chimps and aids, ebola........
I took seven minutes, I was down stairs getting some fries and hot water, sorry.
My mom said it was never nice to keep a lady waiting.
Your newborn is cyanotic and unable to breathe properly.
It's got a bad heart.
You can have a babboon heart implanted until a suitable transplant heart is found...
What are you going to do?
http://www.nature.com/nm/web_specials/xeno/draft.html
I forgot about cow heart valves.:eek:
http://www.aero.ufl.edu/~rtst/classe...1/jardaneh.pdf
Page 9
Temporary Wound Covering
Allograft, Cadaver Skin, or Homograft is human cadaver skin donated for medical use. The clinical use of allograft skin in the modern era was popularized by James Barrett Brown, who described its use in 1942. Cadaver skin is used as a temporary covering for excised (cleaned) wound surfaces before autograft (permanent) placement. Unmeshed cadaver is put over the excised wound and stapled in place. Post-operatively, the cadaver may be covered with a dressing. Wound coverage using cadaveric allograft is removed prior to permanent autografting.
Xenograft or Heterograft is skin taken from a variety of animals, usually a pig. Heterograft skin became popular because of the limited availability and high expense of human skin tissue. In some cases religious, financial, or cultural objections to the use of human cadaver skin may also be factors. Wound coverage using xenograft or heterograft is a temporary covering used until autograft. Porcine is commonly used as temporary skin coverage for Exfoliative Skin Diseases (e.g. SJS, TEN).
--------------------------------------------------
I should have led off with this one to 'flesh out' my arguement.
I disected a pig in High school...the advanced anatomy class did cats though. I can't really say watching it bothered me (my friends were in the class) and it WAS educational. Being an Information Systems major in college, I obviously don't use the knowledge now lol. To me, those cats came in buckets of foul smelling liquid and were very much dead. Now if I had to KILL the cat first, I'd have a problem. Call me a hypocrite if you must, but I just don't have the disire or want to kill anything for any reason, unless I intend to eat said thing or I'm defending myself. Disection to me isnt killing the animal, it was dead long before my unskilled hands reached it! My husbands high school had a bio teacher that liked to kill monkeys...they would come in live from some wierd lab and the kids would have to gas the monkeys before they disected them...and it wasn't killing gas either, it was just a paralytic...so the monkeys were alive when they were cut up. :mad: Now THAT is animal cruelty in my eyes...at least the cats were *hopefully* humanely euthanized....
Oh and that Science teacher was fired eventually....
:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
Eggs to make vaccines,
Pig heart valves, Pig skin for burn victims.
Chimps testing artificial hearts.
Growing human parts on rats.
chimps and aids, ebola........
I took seven minutes, I was down stairs getting some fries and hot water, sorry.
How can you relate "eggs" to "vivisection ?
Pig heart valves ? Ever hear of one that worked for longer
than a few days ?
Pig skin ? They invented artificial skin some years ago. They
grow it from human skin cells in dishes.
Chimps testing artificial hearts ? What common heart substitute
did that provide?
Growing human parts on rats ? Any particular part ? Never
read anything about this one.
Chimps, Aids, Ebola ? These diseases have existed in nature
for a very long time & yes chimps can contract AIDS. No, it
does not spread from chimps to humans. Anything else?
I think you're mixing animal expermentation with animal
vivisection for it's own sake as a teaching tool in some schools.
My school buys rats from laboratories in the US. So does my friend's school in Ontario. And my teacher said that most schools buy expired lab rats to dissect.Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
Show your work....
Support your arguement.
NOT the lab experiment stuff, that is well documented......
Show me that schools obtain the bodies from those sources and how they support the torture and death of these animals.
They support the abuse of these animals by buying them, which in turn gives money to the laboratories.
Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
How can you relate "eggs" to "vivisection ?
I think you're mixing animal expermentation with animal
vivisection for it's own sake as a teaching tool in some schools.
I can't spell vivisection let alone know what the
word means.
you win.
P.s. typical woman....you made me wait long enough..............:confused:
But then again...
Richard,
Ah, could you flesh out that argument a little more for me, huh?
Just go ahead a list all these great improvements in the medical
field gained through animal vivisection, o.k.? Take your time, I'll
wait.
I guess without taking apart animals we wouldn't know about all those things...Now I am confused......
I reed pruty gud and tri to understnd engklish, I thot I red ur kwestyon korrecktly.
Am I really that far off with the EGGS?
Wolf,
I think I missed something.
How are expired rats abused? Can you get more info from your teacher, more than just their word?
Well, I guess it's only a matter of opinion whether or not they'd be called abused...But in my own opinion, animal testing is just cruel. I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having things constantly poked in me, or having wires attached to my brain...I wouldn't think it was so bad if they needed to do this research for the animal's sakes, but in most cases it's always for humans, and all species are different.Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
Wolf,
I think I missed something.
How are expired rats abused? Can you get more info from your teacher, more than just their word?
I'll ask my teacher who the main supplier is and see if I can find a site...
I'm not satisfied with my sarcastic replies...
Pig heart valves remain WORKING AFTER 10 YEARS.
Had I known you wouldn't read my links I would have shined them on.
Artificial skin?
WHA?????? you mean WE can do that???
a fricking mazing.....link please?
Read about the researchers growing ears on the
backs of mice.....great pics somewhere.....
Do you remember Walter Winchell, the puppetry guy?
Look up JARVIK, google it and see what happens.
Chimps and apes are close enough to humans in structure and composition to be and to help researchers in determining the course of the disease.
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1995/...Mouse-Ear.html
Whose the leader of the club that's made for you and me?
M-i-c-k-e-y blow it out your ear!!!!!;)
You have dissected dead animals with wires in their brains?????????Quote:
Originally posted by wolfsoul
Well, I guess it's only a matter of opinion whether or not they'd be called abused...But in my own opinion, animal testing is just cruel. I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having things constantly poked in me, or having wires attached to my brain...I wouldn't think it was so bad if they needed to do this research for the animal's sakes, but in most cases it's always for humans, and all species are different.
I'll ask my teacher who the main supplier is and see if I can find a site...
Using animals for experiments and then selling those same animals so SO UNETHICAL it's not funny.
If you tell me that you have dissected rats with wires in their brains.....I'll call you on that one...One, for not making a stink about it before.
Those animals are dissected by the companies doing the experiments.
Try again.
No no no, that's not what I meant. I mean that laboratories do things like that, and by buying animals from them(whether or not these particular animals have evidence of abuse or not), you are giving the laboratories money, and they will have money to further continue such cruel experiments. It's the same reason some people don't buy IAMS -- You would be giving IAMS money, and therefore supporting the experiments they do. The animals in question do not have to have been experimented on for you to be supporting the laboratories' experiments. Any money towards them helps them to keep their animals and keep doing the same things to them.Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
You have dissected dead animals with wires in their brains?????????
Using animals for experiments and then selling those same animals so SO UNETHICAL it's not funny.
If you tell me that you have dissected rats with wires in their brains.....I'll call you on that one...One, for not making a stink about it before.
Those animals are dissected by the companies doing the experiments.
Try again.
lol
I am sooooooo stupid
It's PAUL
Paul Winchell: Paul Wilchen (amateur medical device inventor (patented an artificial human heart)/acupuncturist/Doctor of Divinity/ventriloquist (w/dummies Jerry Mahoney & Knucklehead Smiff)/cartoon voicist/movie & tv actor/director/writer, b1922)
Oh Richard, you scamp.... You always say the cutest things.:D
Sorry I was late but I had an appointment to get my hair
done this afternoon.(Honestly, I was late getting there) Anyhoo
I'm beautiful again so , may I buy you a drink at Thursday's ?
Hey, who's minding the bar anyway ? Liz.
If you buy the animals from the labs what do they use????Quote:
Originally posted by wolfsoul
No no no, that's not what I meant. I mean that laboratories do things like that, and by buying animals from them(whether or not these particular animals have evidence of abuse or not), you are giving the laboratories money, and they will have money to further continue such cruel experiments. It's the same reason some people don't buy IAMS -- You would be giving IAMS money, and therefore supporting the experiments they do. The animals in question do not have to have been experimented on for you to be supporting the laboratories' experiments. Any money towards them helps them to keep their animals and keep doing the same things to them.
Or is that the overstock???
Please give me a link and please, no EARTHFIRST, GREEN PEACE or PETA sites.....I really want to see something without the slant attached to it. My equilibrium is not that good.
Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
Oh Richard, you scamp.... You always say the cutest things.:D
Sorry I was late but I had an appointment to get my hair
done this afternoon.(Honestly, I was late getting there) Anyhoo
I'm beautiful again so , may I buy you a drink at Thursday's ?
Hey, who's minding the bar anyway ? Liz.
lol,
I am glad we can have a good row without the hard feelings.
I am proud of you!
and I apologize for being a smartass???
psst,
I'd wait for you as long as you wanted....
See being silly has it's advantages......
FRIENDS?
:)
Those are the EXPIRED animals, meaning that they don't need these certain animals anymore because they have become sick, are too old, etc.Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
If you buy the animals from the labs what do they use????
Or is that the overstock???
I don't have a link, like I said, I'm going to ask my teacher who the main supplier to the schools in the Okanagan is, and see if I can find a website.
I can only surmise that those animals were kept alive and as healthy as they could be in order for them to be used as control subjects....Quote:
Originally posted by wolfsoul
Those are the EXPIRED animals, meaning that they don't need these certain animals anymore because they have become sick, are too old, etc.
I don't have a link, like I said, I'm going to ask my teacher who the main supplier to the schools in the Okanagan is, and see if I can find a website.
You cannot possibly, unless you are making the animals sick yourself, use ill animals as a control group.....
and any company selling ill animals to the public would and should be shut down...it's not ethical...
ask teach about control groups and scientific methods for doing experiments....
Please.
BTW,
I am not a doctor or anything like that.I don't have any degrees - just a few years of college and
I like to read.
I suppose you're right that knowingly ill animals shouldn't be sold to the public...I don't believe, that unless the experiments themselves caused the sicknesses, that the animals would be ill. Especially rats that are kpt in very sterile lab environments. I'll ask my teacher about this.
This is one of the reasons I say that animals should not be tested on for human research...
Very Good!Quote:
Originally posted by wolfsoul
I suppose you're right that knowingly ill animals shouldn't be sold to the public...I don't believe, that unless the experiments themselves caused the sicknesses, that the animals would be ill. Especially rats that are kpt in very sterile lab environments. I'll ask my teacher about this.
This is one of the reasons I say that animals should not be tested on for human research...
Now what we may never know is how many people WOULD die had those drugs not been used on animals.
I understand your concern about animal testing but we cannot allow big companies to test on humans alone...
Also ask you teacher about THALIDOMINE,
Ask first then go look it up. Compare what they say to what is printed in the records. Or you can do it to see just how much the teach has read about it...
If they are 'STAND UP' teachers, they will help you get material, if they do not know, or be with
you as you look for it.
P.s.
I am not always right.
When you look at both sides of an issue and put yourself in the middle you can never be wrong.;)
Just don't tell anyone else.....
Shhhhh .... don't tell the tens of thousands of people in the world today who have pig heart valves keeping them alive for years and years and years.Quote:
Pig heart valves ? Ever hear of one that worked for longer than a few days ?
Did you all see this ? Pretty weird "Show & Tell".:rolleyes:
Pa. Boy Faints at Sight of Cadaver's Arm
Thu Jan 8, 4:35 PM ET Add Strange News - AP to My Yahoo!
By JUDY LIN, Associated Press Writer
PITTSBURGH - A doctor's idea of show and tell — opening up a cadaver arm in front of fifth-graders for a lesson in anatomy and art — caused one student to faint and made others feel sick from the smell of formaldehyde.
Some parents complained to a board member at the Fox Chapel Area School District. School officials Thursday said they would look into the matter.
The limb was brought in Tuesday by Dr. Michael Horowitz, a neurosurgeon whose children attend Fairview Elementary School in Fox Chapel, a well-to-do suburb about five miles east of Pittsburgh.
Horowitz, whose son was in the classroom, was using the arm as a visual aid for a discussion on the 1875 Thomas Eakins painting "The Gross Clinic," which shows a surgeon removing diseased bone from a patient's thigh. A 19th-century art critic called the work "a picture that even strong men find it difficult to look at long, if they can look at it at all."
During the discussion, Horowitz opened the cadaver arm to show students nerves, tendons and other parts. There was no blood. He said he discussed carpal tunnel syndrome and explained to the children how there isn't really a funny bone.
"I've found kids are actually pretty tolerant of seeing stuff like this. They don't really see it as disgusting. When you see it in a lab, it's different," Horowitz said.
The boy who fainted had passed out for 10 to 20 seconds and was taken to the nurse, district spokeswoman Bonnie Berzonski said. He returned to school the next day, she said.
Five of the 66 students left the classroom at some point because of the strong smell of the preservatives, Berzonski said.
School member Shirley Wiley said about 10 parents called her to say they were stunned they were not notified about the presentation.
"In this case it was totally the parents' call. I think they had the right to do so," Wiley said.
The doctor said he was surprised by the complaints, saying he has visited the class and other schools with cadaver ears and eyes, as well as dog and rat brains.
"These same kids are taken to `The Matrix' and see people's heads blow off," Horowitz said. "We sort of accept it when it's entertainment but this is science."
The district has received no complaints about Horowitz's past visits but will review his most recent one to determine whether it was appropriate for fifth-graders, Berzonski said.
Students were told about the discussion in advance. However, "in hindsight, probably a letter should have been sent home and we will be doing that in the future," Berzonski said.
___
He did this in front of 5th graders? Smart move. :rolleyes: I personally, think that's way too young to be doing a disection, or even a demonstration of one.Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
Did you all see this ? Pretty weird "Show & Tell".:rolleyes:
I dissected a lamb's heart and lungs in fifth grade. No one was traumatized and quite a few of us (girls especially) decided that science was way cooler than we had thought.
Twisterdog, they actually made you torture and kill a frog! That's horrible! I hope that highschool doesn't do that anymore! Totally inhumane. I would have been crying and throwing up if they made me do that!:confused:
I would assume less lol. If it wasn't tested on anything, people would be much less amused at the thought of trying the drug for themselves. Without any customers....Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
Very Good!
Now what we may never know is how many people WOULD die had those drugs not been used on animals.
Ibelieve in testing on murderers and child abusers.
This is a good point, but I think it is going too far to have people dissecting animals like frogs and cats (to whom some young kids might have emotional attachement) ... I think that for a lot of children, dissecting a moggy that looks like kitty at home would be just too disturbing!Quote:
Originally posted by 2kitties
I say be respectful of the animals contribution and try to learn as much as you can so the opportunity does not go to waste.
College students are different, especially if they are future vets!
ME TOO!!!Quote:
Originally posted by mimi420
I believe in testing on murderers and child abusers.
We can have high schoolers (and even younger, it seems by reading some posts) dissect an animal but we can't have frank discussions on sex, birth control, homosexuality.
Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:
yes..it is...isn't it?.....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Cataholic
Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:
Yes, they did. It was truly one of the most horrible things I've ever had to see ... especially the ones that didn't quite go right, and the frogs weren't quite brain dead enough when they started on them. I won't go into any more details, but you get the idea, I'm sure. :( :(Quote:
Originally posted by mimi420
Twisterdog, they actually made you torture and kill a frog! That's horrible! I hope that highschool doesn't do that anymore! Totally inhumane. I would have been crying and throwing up if they made me do that!:confused:
Strange things afoot!Quote:
Originally posted by Cataholic
We can have high schoolers (and even younger, it seems by reading some posts) dissect an animal but we can't have frank discussions on sex, birth control, homosexuality.
Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:
Cataholic,Quote:
Originally posted by Cataholic
We can have high schoolers (and even younger, it seems by reading some posts) dissect an animal but we can't have frank discussions on sex, birth control, homosexuality.
Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:
Just to clarify a point, who is the WE you are refering to in
this statement? Do you mean discussion in schools, or do you
mean here on Pet Talk? Thanks.
Liz,
I was referring to the educational system. People cry out over dissecting animals- "but, its for SCIENCE"...when, in truth, we can learn of these things other ways. MOST of us do not need this 'skill', and are more routinely turned off by it than not (exceptions apply).
But, talk about sex, birth control, sexual orientation, and BY GOSH! How dare we 'educate' the children. Yet, surely this is a science-y as the above, isn't it? I see hypocrisy at its finest here.
Since we can't teach every one everything, why not stick to the core basics? Most of us will experience sex, birth control, sexual orientation, even drugs/alcohol ALOT more often then we will dissecting any animal. So, like a pyramid...start at the base, with the core stuff. Leave the (IMO) non-core stuff to either higher grades, trade specific schools, post secondary education, etc.
Now, as it would be, I am totally turned off by disection of anything. I have difficulty de-boning a chicken. AND, I am pro-education when it comes to the other stuff, too.
Uhhh.. As far as I can remember, we have Health classes (which I took last semester) which taught us about sex, sexual orientation, birth control, drugs, and alcohol. Which this class is manditory to graduate.
For part of the year in 8th grade, we had Sexual Education. I'm also taking it this year, in Biology for part of the year.
Maybe if I reply to everyone of your posts...you will see it. Please leave me alone. Please. I have tried ignoring you. Please just leave me alone.