I feel evil

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Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
I agree. I tap Molly on the nose, whenever she starts to act up. She hates it, but it doesn't hurt her, not like a hit in the face.

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Yeah, Timber's gotten a few taps on the nose when I catch her with something in her mouth that isn't supposed to be. One time, I literally sat there for like ten minutes trying to pry a bucket out of Timber's mouth. A tap fixed it all. But even a tap on the nose won't make her let go of Pedro's tennis balls. He has to wait an entire day to get them back. :(

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I thought it was bad to get Shelties shaved? I know for Collies it is, it totally ruins their coat and it grows back abnormaly.

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I think someone mentioned this..the undercoat protects from the cold and the heat. I would never completely shave my shelties unless the matts on them were that bad (but that'll never happen..with all the grooming I keep up with). ANYWAYS...


Promise to never do it again. I've done it once to kai before. I didn't hit him on the face but I got really mad and got really upset at him. Kai still has his moments but I now know to keep it all bottled up inside me until he's not around and punch a pillow or something. Pets don't understand why we hit, scream or do the things we do sometimes. The next time sometime like this happens, take a deep breath in and think about it calmly. Think, will I regret this later? That ALWAYS stops me from doing something stupid.

I was told once that tapping on the nose could damage their senses in their nose.

I prefer to tap them on the butt.

rachnjam27,
I dont think you understand somthing called "animal abuse".. If you hit a dog in the face they will react in a bad way over time, it is simple psychology, negitive reinforce ment isnt the way to go when dealing with pets.. ...

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Originally posted by Kfamr
I was told once that tapping on the nose could damage their senses in their nose.

I prefer to tap them on the butt.

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what if you have a thick coated dog breed?? tapping on the but doesnt do anything.. even with my great dane she doesnt notice she is too buisy thinking about everyhting eles.

Tapping hard ont he nose all the time might be a bad thing, but a light tap, meh it isnt bad..

That's when you use your voice. Really, I never need to tap Nala. Just say "NO" .... No can be a very strong word for dogs.. Atleast it is for mine.

Besides, your Great Dane is still a puppy and will be "thinking of everything" for a while. Puppies are very curious. :)

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Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
what if you have a thick coated dog breed?? tapping on the but doesnt do anything.. even with my great dane she doesnt notice she is too buisy thinking about everyhting eles.

Tapping hard ont he nose all the time might be a bad thing, but a light tap, meh it isnt bad..

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I try not to tap them but I find myself doing it once in a while. When kai was a pup and nipped people, I'd give a small tap. But now, I just give about 10 seconds of stern eye contact. It never fails ;)

Yes, I do happen to understand the meaning of animal abuse.
I never said that slapping a dog in the face is right. I do feel that slapping in the rear is a much more effective way of punishment than 'positive reinforcement'. Believe it or not, dogs aren't as innocent and helpless as you seem to think.

Gee Rex, you scratched up that girl's face. Bad dog, here's a dog treat.

I can see how that will help the dog learn.

well I must have miss understood you because I thought you agreed with hitting a dog in the face..

I don't think anyone meant positive reinforcement when the dog has done something bad.

but when they do something good, you MUST reinforce that with something positive.. Just like a parent would when a child gets good grade or something...

Well, yes, I do agree.

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Originally posted by Kfamr
That's when you use your voice. Really, I never need to tap Nala. Just say "NO" .... No can be a very strong word for dogs.. Atleast it is for mine.

Besides, your Great Dane is still a puppy and will be "thinking of everything" for a while. Puppies are very curious. :)

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lol yeah I think she will grow out of that fais ;). Great danes love to please their owners BUT if not properly trained will have the run of the house..

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Originally posted by rachnjam27

I never said that slapping a dog in the face is right. I do feel that slapping in the rear is a much more effective way of punishment than 'positive reinforcement'. Believe it or not, dogs aren't as innocent and helpless as you seem to think.

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I don't think slapping on the behind is as effective on the majority of dogs. I slap Timber when I play with her. All over her body, including her rear. She doesn't react, but she plays back. I'll lightly slap the sides of her nose, and she just play attacks me. But if I ever, even lightly, tap the top of her nose while I play, she'll freeze and look dumbfounded, like "Wha? Meh? Huh?"

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Originally posted by rachnjam27
Well, yes, I do agree.

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You agree with what?

P.S... Where did you come from? Are you new here or is this just another name? It's odd for a newbie to just jump in here.. :p

Tapping on the butt, saying their name, or saying "NO" always works for Simba and Nala.

Nala not as much, since she's still a puppy -- but she's getting there. :)

humm.. yeah If I were new I would probably have jumped into the posts about pics or whatever, it is odd to see a newbie debating..

I was agreeing with your statement about rewarding dogs that do good things.
Yes, I'm new here.

Molly only gets a tap on the nose when a "NO" doesn't work. She's easy going, but when she doesn't want to listen, that's when I do it, and it works; everytime. I hate doing it, but she has to learn she can't get away with certain things.

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Originally posted by rachnjam27
I was agreeing with your statement about rewarding dogs that do good things.
Yes, I'm new here.

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Well, why don't you post a thread telling us aobut your pets and yourself. I'd love to here aobut them. :)

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Originally posted by Kfamr
Well, why don't you post a thread telling us aobut your pets and yourself. I'd love to here aobut them. :)

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DITTTO!!!! ;)

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Originally posted by rachnjam27
I was agreeing with your statement about rewarding dogs that do good things.
Yes, I'm new here.

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Actually you are new to posting, not new to the forum. ;) :p

I don't know anyone who hasn't lashed out in anger before. It may have not been a physical lashing out it could have been a verbal lashing, or heck it could have even been mentally. The point is that sometimes our emotions cloud our reasoning. This becomes a problem when you don't realize the impact you might have. I believe the original poster has stated his/her remorse over what has happened. Recognizing that they acted inappropriately is a step towards changing that reaction in the future.

The discussion has now moved onto the "merits" of "tapping" your dog instead of hitting. Well one person's tap is another person's hit.
Hitting a dog in the face can make it head shy. It may or may not cause a dog to "turn" on it's owner. A dog too may flinch from getting hit or tapped on the butt. It depends on the dog. I do not raise my hands to my dogs. Not to say I never have. I spanked
Emily once and I've never forgiven myself. I doubt she remembers it, but I always will. I do raise my voice though and this works for my dogs, and others I've trained.

Also there was a comment on negative reinforcement isn't the way to go when dealing with pets.
Negative reinforcers are something that the dog wants to avoid and thus, decrease the likelihood of repeating a behavior.
These can be things such as withholding a reward, ignoring a dog, and verbal objection. They most definitely do have their place in dog training.

I'm sick of seeing bad advice given out by well meaning people. I don't care how many books someone has read, how many links they have looked over. Nothing can equal the experience gained by working with a lot of dogs.

I applaud you for your response.

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Originally posted by Shelteez2
I'm sick of seeing bad advice given out by well meaning people. I don't care how many books someone has read, how many links they have looked over. Nothing can equal the experience gained by working with a lot of dogs.

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What bad advice has been given?? We were all just stating our opinions on the subject. :confused:

You guys are all going to hasty conclusions. Now since I have read some more posts it sounds like I went from slapping my dog on the head to beating my dog. Yall make it sound like I am totally abusing Hallie, which I would never do. I didn't hit her very hard and it wasn't exactly on the face like I made it sound. It was just near the top of her head. It's not good to hit a dog, I know. I also know that you should reward a dog when it does good. It just sounds like yall are going to Hast Conclusions. It's gone and over with. I learned my lesson. It will never happen again. Trust me.
By the way, I am not trying to be rude. I don't even know if this is what you meant, but binka_nugget, it kind of sounded like you were saying that we shaved our Hallie because she had mats in her hair. Well, I groom her everyday, twice a day. She has almost never had a little knot in her life. That goes for all of our longhaired dogs. Oh, and Hallie is the first sheltie that I have ever had so I didn't know that you were not supposed to shave that far.

Actually, I felt that it was wrong of them to put you down like that, when in reality you did not do anything 'wrong'.

Please, let's not continue this discussion in this thread. Poor petlover feels bad enough, we do not need to debate training methods in her thread.

Start a new thread if you want to, okay?

Jan (petlover) I am glad you had the nice walk, and ice cream silliness, and am just as glad that you seem to have learned, and promise never to do that agin. It's even better that Hallie has forgiven you, but still be careful about raising your hand quickly around her, or yelling around her, for a few days, okay?

Trust and respect can be earned. I am sorry you have had bad examples in your life. But you are young, and can learn! Keep in mind that Shelties are bred to herd sheep, and often will nip at sheep to keep them going the way they want them to. Have you ever done agility training with her? She might really enjoy that, as might you, and it'll help strengthen communication and trust between you two. Give it a thought, anyway.

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Originally posted by petlover
By the way, I am not trying to be rude. I don't even know if this is what you meant, but binka_nugget, it kind of sounded like you were saying that we shaved our Hallie because she had mats in her hair. Well, I groom her everyday, twice a day. She has almost never had a little knot in her life. That goes for all of our longhaired dogs. Oh, and Hallie is the first sheltie that I have ever had so I didn't know that you were not supposed to shave that far.

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Oh no, I didn't direct that at you. I quoted Goldenretrluver's comment and just added onto it.

I am sooo sorry binka_nugget I didn't mean to make you upset. I am really sorry. I hope I didn't offend you.

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I'm sick of seeing bad advice given out by well meaning people. I don't care how many books someone has read, how many links they have looked over. Nothing can equal the experience gained by working with a lot of dogs.

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I so agree with this!

Hi Karen. Thank you for helping me out with this situation. I have hearded sheep with Hallie. We have a hearding day every Saturday. It is a lot of fun. It is a full day of hearding sheep with other collies and shelties. We are with the LuvMyCollie club. We do lots of fun things. Also, the club does agility every Wednesday. Hallie seems to really enjoy that too. Thank you again for understanding. And helping me out. I couldn't thank you enough. Also, when I raise my hand Hallie doesn't really mind. I think it is because I have signals that I use with her with my hands. I am teaching her commands in sign language. I also use signals with sheep herding. Sheep herding is pretty important to her because she gets to do it everyday. We have a lamb that I raise for show and she gets to run it. She just loves it!


Thanks again!

i'm curious... Which advice in here would you consider "bad"?

I have an idea, but I won't bother to post it.
Hey Kfamr, I posted my intro in General.

I dont know what is it with you people and jumping to concusions honestly if anyone here says that they have never ever lashed out on there dog at least once in their lives they are lying. plain and simple. things happen, sometimes you have to do what you have to do, I do have to hite misty, why? because NOTHING else is effective, she could not care less how many times or how loud I yelled NO, she doesent care if I ignore her, she has no response to a tap on the nose or a slap on the but, so she gets a slap on her shoulder, however she is he ONLY dog I have that gets that sort of punishment, and only because she is very tuff and strong willed so much that she barly even responds to the slap, no I dont slap her in the face but EVERYONE makes mistakes. I got run off a board once because I lashed out on misty, they expected me to be able to think in a panic and even said I should not even have pets if I am going to lash out like that, what she did is while I was finishing up my lunch before heading back to school misty came out of nowhere flew into my lunch sending the boiling hot tomato sauce all over my face, lets see I have sauce scalding my face and I am supposed to think about what I am doing? :mad: like I said EVERYONE makes mistakes, and anyone who can say they have never once ever lashed out on there pets in anyway is lying through their teeth. have I kicked my dogs? yes I have perky, WHY because she is a jack russle terrier, and when a jack gets into a full out fight you cannot just stick you hands in there and pick her up, that is unless you want to end up in the hospital with gashes all over you. you have to get in there and break uo the fight with you feet, which means kicking them apart, and anyone with a true tuff jack russle that has gotten into a fight will know that, when misty gets into a fight all you need to do is pick her up by the scruff and crate her(so she cant get to the dog she was attacking) but things happen, and no one shoul be condeming her for what she did.

and grab her coller (gently!) and lead her outside, because being alone is the WORST possible punishment you could EVER do to her. It's like a time-out. I works great for us. 5 mins later, I let her back in and she is good.

This is a training method Tyr's trainer suggested when he would "play" way too rough-jumping up and grabbing me with his mouth and sometimes really hurting me.
He suggested I say"no" "bad"and walk out of the room, and leave him a lone for a while and come back 5 or so minutes later and do it every time-most dogs hate to be left alone-and when they find certain things they do will make you go away-they will stop doing it.
It worked with Tyr-it's the only thing that worked!
But hitting-major No-no-just makes the situation worse. I would get angry and push him away-not hard-not enough to hurt him - but he would get more excited and come back harder, thinking I was playing with him.
Hitting confuses the dog-so try to avoid doing it again. I know sometimes you reaact to a situation out of anger-but you have to think-if this was your child-would you reaact like that-and in a way aren't they our "children" so to speak?

dawn for that method ypu have to keep in mind both the dog and where the person lives, for example I cant just isolate my dogs outside because its -40*C thats is flippen cold way to cold to be tossing the dog out and leaving them, my friend american eskimo has to come inside in the winters because its too cold for his super thick coat. you also have to keep in mind the dog, for example, I cannot isolate misty say in the bathroom, because she will quite litterally break down the door(she has done it) you also must keep in mind the house layout, for example I have a very wide open layout in the house, its a complete ring with no doors If I leave her she will follow nothing I can do about that, I put her in her crate for time out however she loves her crate so that is not punnishment either, it is a great methode it just relies on the assumption that everyone have lots of doors, nice wheather, and a calm dog. ;)

There has been ALOT of great advice given here. I think that petlover feft bad for what she did, vowed to never do it again, AND she has apologized.
All of our opinions have made a point. It sounds like petlover acted out of anger and fear. And relalized that she was wrong. I was always taught not to hit a dog with my hands. Because they will become fearfull of "hands". You can't hit a dog with the same hand that you pet them with. If you hit them with your hand, they will not know the differance when you extend that same hand to pet them. I was told to use a lightly rolled newspaper if it was needed. Just to "SAWT" or "TAP" not CLOBBER". Dogs will not like the sound. Eventually all one would have to do is shake the paper, no more swatting. The dog gets the message, and are not afraid of hands. I had never heard of the "time out" training, I'm going to try it. Thanks.

Sorry Cali, I understand you're predicament-I just have to ask if there is some other way? Have you tried speaking with a professional trainer for advice?
Hitting is so-well...
I get the dog fight thing with the JRT-They are out of control - and can cause major damage- but the other things...
well-good luck-

misty is gennerally a good dog she just counter surfs way to much, and has a tenency to start fights(well right now anyway, she is in season and has "doggie PMS" lol) I am acually a member of a dog club that specializes in positive reinforcment, so that is how most of our dogs are trained its only misty thats the problem, and there is no way I can leave her alone right now(in standing season) like I dont hit her hard just a slap on the shoulder hard enugh for her to get the message, she is a tough dog, my mom is a professinal trainer, well she has boxes of ribbons and trophies for obedience, in which she trained the dogs. I would take her to barbra loyd, but we just cant afford it right now, she worked wonders on happy though!:)

Oh, well every training method is different-doesn't make them wrong-just different, and we all don't have to agree with those methods. Every dog is different too - some respond better to some types of methods than others-Tyr responded best to soft spoken, no hit training.
He had 2 different trainers as a pup, one I left because I thought she was too rough and he did not respond well to her. he was a very timid pup. (you wouldn't know that now) Our second trainer was a man, which he responds better to anyway, and he believed in "soft handed" training. He never raised his voice, was against choke collars, and didn't even need treats most of the time. He was wonderful. Tyr did really well in his class, and i learned alot from him.
His biggest suggestion was-always work with what your dog loves, and take that away when they are bad. It could be a toy, treat, belly rubs, long walks whatever makes them happy is the best rewards. Taking away your presence is the worst possible punishment. Walk away-go in another room or just leave the house for awhile.
Just suggestions. Like I said -what ever works for the individual and your dog-we don't all have to agree.