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I used to own a snake, absolutely loved her. But I couldn't stand feeding time, quite simply because of the process. In fact, my ex tried to feed her a rat, but I saved it and made a great pet out of him too! But, we all have to make choices.
Honestly, what kills me is, like I said, people who raise rabbits for lab use. I can't imagine the torture they must go through just to make sure things are safe for human use.
First, I'd kinda like to kick myself for coming back to this thread... for the sole reason that I am incredibly sensitive when it comes to bunnies.... (already in a puddle of tears)
Second, I'd like to express my surprise and delight at EquineBehaviorist's ability to handle such an attack in a cool, collected manner... something I wouldn't have been able to do! lol
Third, and I will keep this incredibly brief... If people are going to consume bunnies, I would much rather have those persons be EXACTLY like EquineB. She is knowledgeable, compassionate, and definitely NOT what I would call a backyard breeder. On this topic, I will stop there.
I do not think that all "pets" are cut out to be pets. I do think that there are some that just can not adapt to human interaction. In my mind, after all means have been exhuasted and the animal is still not responding, the kindest thing is to put the animal to sleep. Yes, I would love to be able to save them all but it's not entirely possible.
For the record, while I'm not a strict vegetarian, I realize (but don't condone) the consumption of rabbits; they will always be indoor pets to me. I also realize that snakes must eat too, but can't ever imagine feeding one anything more than crickets.
Equinebehaviorist, I will have to admit, I'm at shock with how calmly you handled all this attacking and hurtful posts. You are one brave, calm, and gentle person! Wow!
I agree with not believing that breeding increases the risk of cancer. God made animals to have babies, and their not being spayed/neutered cannot be a cause for cancer. That's how they were created, that's how they were made to be. That is one of the reasons people give for spaying/neutering that I will NEVER accept, because God made them that way and their natural body parts cannot be the cause of disease. I userstand the other reasonings to have it done, but this is one reason I will never accept. Good job on handling things so well. I would've broken down! :eek:
Yes, but spaying can prevent cancer from happening if those parts are not even there for cancer to form in.Quote:
Originally posted by popcornbird
I agree with not believing that breeding increases the risk of cancer. God made animals to have babies, and their not being spayed/neutered cannot be a cause for cancer. That's how they were created, that's how they were made to be. That is one of the reasons people give for spaying/neutering that I will NEVER accept, because God made them that way and their natural body parts cannot be the cause of disease. I userstand the other reasonings to have it done, but this is one reason I will never accept.
Cancer can form anywhere. I have faith in God and don't believe a body part can be a "cause" of cancer. If cancer has to happen, it will happen anywhere, and no one can stop it. If its not going to happen, whether the animal is spayed or not, it won't happen. We have those body parts too, so we have that risk as well!
I didn't say spaying is wrong. I know there are many benefits. I just pointed out that "that" is not a reason I take for it. The homeless reason is why I think it helps, but I don't take the cancer thing as an issue. I take the other reasons. :)
I have faith in God too, and I believe it is He who gave doctors the knowledge to research about genetics and medical problems. I did a quick search on google, and many links came up about cancer and bunnies who are not spayed or neutered.
If the reproductive organ is not there, they will not get cancer there. Period. I never said that spaying/neutering would prevent cancer from occuring in *other* parts of the body.Quote:
Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of uterine, ovarian and mammary cancers. Some reports state that more than 80% of unspayed, unbred female rabbits will develop uterine/ovarian cancer by the age of three years.
If you have a pet rabbit and you want it to be with you for longer than five years (the expected life span of an unspayed bunny) then yes, getting a bunny spayed will prevent cancer. If you remove the uterus of a rabbit, then the chances of getting uterine cancer is eliminated. Obviously you can't spay breeding rabbits, but for people who have them as pets, and want to have them a long time, why just let the bunny get cancer? I don't think God designed rabbits to die, but perhaps He has given people the knowledge that unspayed bunnies can get cancer within a short lifespan for a reason too. You can't deny that bunnies are more prone to cancer after reading up on it. Clearly they are, that is why people with companion rabbits get them spayed or neutered.
Well, as long as we're going down this line of thought let's remove all of the other unnecessary bits. That tail, for example....I've seen an awful lot of injuries to it, so let's prevent those by removing it. Those ears, especially on some of the large lops, are too big and prone to infection and tearing. Let's remove half of them to prevent this.
If someone is breeding their rabbit wisely, carefully, and to a good end, I see no reason to alter the rabbit. I had a Mini Lop doe for nine years, outdoors, who was not altered. She lived in good health (Except for one non-feeding scare, but the cause of that was quickly found and fixed) and happiness for all of those nine years, right up until the last few days.
"sigh" It seems that you aren't understanding my point. I never said people shouldn't spay/neuter their pets and that doing so won't help them. I just said that I don't believe its a "cause" of cancer. Of course removing a part will make it impossible for cancer to develop in an area that doesn't exist, but I was saying, that part is not the "cause" for cancer, as cancer can develop anywhere. A spayed rabbit can develop cancer in another part and die young, so its not a guarantee your pet will die at an older age. Again I never said people shouldn't do it. :p I just don't take that particular reason as the main issue. :)
I have faith in God, and if God has decided for a pet to get cancer and die young, that will happen whether the pet is spayed or not. On the other hand, if God wants an animal to live a long healthy, free of cancer life, that animal will live for as long as God wills, whether it is altered or not.
I agree, but I do believe that some parts can be more prone to cancer, correct? I'm not saying that just because a rabbit has a uterus that means the bunny will have cancer.. hehe.. you are right there I'm not saying the uterus causes cancer but it seems like the uterus in bunnies is very prone to cancer.Quote:
Originally posted by popcornbird
I was saying, that part is not the "cause" for cancer
And Wolf Chan, you don't need to be rude. PCB and I apparently didn't quite get our points across to each other, but I think we've been polite and respectful. Hopefully what I have just said will be more clear!! :D And if you read what I said, I was talking about spaying COMPANION rabbits.. not ones being used for breeding. And from what Equine said, I think she is a very dilligent and responsible breeder, who cares very much for her rabbits health and well being. The "line of thought" you decided to read into this never existed, and your post about removing tails and ears really doesn't fit here.
I never said that it "caused" cancer...just that not having it there would "prevent" it from happening in that particular organ. I may be wrong, but I thought cancer of the reproductive organs was fairly common.
And I don't recall ever mentioning anything about spaying animals used for breeding either.
Yep Nomilynn! Finally! Yay, you got it! "clap clap" :D
BTW, I don't think Wolfchan posted rudely, but oh well. :confused:
Amy, if you read over my posts, you should get what I'm saying, ok?
I'm not confused here, and I get what you are saying....I have been saying the same thing all along. I think you are the one confused by what I'm saying. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by popcornbird
Yay, you got it! "clap clap" :D
BTW, I don't think Wolfchan posted rudely, but oh well. :confused:
Amy, if you read over my posts, you should get what I'm saying, ok?
I just took offense to WolfChan's post because it seems as though it is implying that I am in favour of removing "all of the other unnecessary bits" and that is NEVER what I said!!
LOL! I think we're both confused. ;) Oh well. :pQuote:
Originally posted by wolf_Q
I'm not confused here, and I get what you are saying....I have been saying the same thing all along. I think you are the one confused by what I'm saying. ;)
Quote:
Yes, but spaying can prevent cancer from happening if those parts are not even there for cancer to form in.
Quote:
If the reproductive organ is not there, they will not get cancer there. Period. I never said that spaying/neutering would prevent cancer from occuring in *other* parts of the body.
See...I said the same thing every time. ;)Quote:
I never said that it "caused" cancer...just that not having it there would "prevent" it from happening in that particular organ. I may be wrong, but I thought cancer of the reproductive organs was fairly common.
LOL. Oh well. ;);)
BTW, I LOVE your new sig!
Thanks! :D
Good morning all....
I am an avid believer in spaying and neutering dogs and cats simply because most people can't be responsible enough to watch their pets and take responsible actions to prevent accidental breedings. Even the best of breeders will be "victimized" by the neighbors' loose dog(s) that has come to pay the prize winning bitch that is in heat a visit and manage to tie her through the fence, or their queen slips out the door when she is in a raging heat and gets caught by the neighbors toms that are hanging around like vultures.
Shasta and Ashely, my dogs have had wonderful, healthy lives (8 1/2 and 4 years) intact. I know their heat cycles well enough to predict when it is going to be a problem, and I take measures to prevent them being exposed when that time comes. The only reason why Shasta had, as you will read in another post, a uterine infection after all these years, I feel, was the people who were watching her for me over the last 5 months refused to feed her the way I wanted her fed, and she was eating processed food, tons of non organic table scraps, stuff dogs shouldn't even eat like chocolate and candy from the kids, and God knows what else. Her whole immune system was comprimised. In a way, I feel God made sure she came home at the right time, cause they never would have realized she had an infection until it probably would have been too late.
I have also had many, many (over 75) cats in my life, and most of them were not spayed, but I neutered most of the males (mostly to prevent spraying, but also to keep them home). When those females come in heat, they stay HOME, until I know they are done. I have only had a couple of occasions where that darn queen slipped out the door, thanks to the toddlers.
:rolleyes:
As for the cancer issue, I think that man trying to alter what God originally created is what is causing alot of our disease and cancer trouble. Perhaps the rabbits are considered to be so prone to cancer (even though in all the rabbits I have had, which were ALOT, I have never had one die from cancer) is because they are being bred so heavily for certain perpouses and their natural health is being comprimised? I know alot of purebred dogs are prone to certain cancers, and each breed has specific areas that need to be watched. There is so much linebreeding and inbreeding when developing breeds, I wonder how the over all health is comprimised.
Thank you all for the comments on my responses to this. To be honest, I pray before I answer, especially the really upset posts. I understand, and respect their concerns. I am not saying anyone is necessarily right or wrong. Just my experiences and my understanding of how God has things made gives me the convictions that I have about life and God's creatures.:)
I think that other animals can eat feeders, I have nothing againts that it is natural. I juat have everything againts ppl eating rabbits, horse, and pigs.
Equinebehaviorist.
A few questions please...
I was wondering about your login name. Are you a trained
Equine Behaviorist?
You said you use the pelts & meat from some of your stock of
bunnies. Is there a large market for these products?
You also said you used to be a commercial breeder, but not
anymore. Who did you sell to when you bred commercially?
Equine,
Your posts about how you breed your rabbits was wonderful! We think alike in breeding respects, I follow the same rules for my rats, except that they are not used for food. You pointed out something that is very important, pedigrees. A lot of people do not understand that pedigrees do not mean much in terms of who is going to be bred. Almost all my rats are pedigreed, but not all are breeder quality. Some are just too nervous/skittish, have had myco flareups or whatnot and therefor not suitable for breeding.
I just wanted to give you a big CLAP for your post!!!!:D
Self taught, but yes. My focus with horses is understanding and using their behaviorial tendendicies for training and rehabitilitating abused and neglected horses. Have been in this line of work for about 25 years, since I can remember.Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
Equinebehaviorist.
A few questions please...
I was wondering about your login name. Are you a trained
Equine Behaviorist?
Out of respect to the ones who are offended by this line of conversation, I will PM you on this. If you all want to know, then post here, and I will post it publicly, but I need to know I am not stepping on toes. :cool:Quote:
You said you use the pelts & meat from some of your stock of
bunnies. Is there a large market for these products?
You also said you used to be a commercial breeder, but not
anymore. Who did you sell to when you bred commercially?
Equinebehaviorist,
Don't know about others, but as for the last two questions,
yes, i would like to know PM me or whatever.
I would definately love to know more about your experiences
with horses. Thanks.
Lizbud,
I will PM you after this post.;)
As for my experiences with horses, I have been, like I said working with them for about 25 years, and have been studying behavior, and physiology as well as human psycology to better understand training and rehabilitating them. It is a fun subject to teach to owners and riders also.
I have handled and trained over 250 head of horses in my lifetime, from ponies to drafts, but mostly Arabians, QH, Thoroughbreds, and Morgans. I have handled many stallions, both for training and/or rehab and breeding, have foaled out countless mares, imprinted their foals, lost count of how many horses I have started for riding and "finished" for show. I have trained horses for everything from basic ground manners to National competitions in Western Pleasure and Ladies Sidesaddle, which I adore. I have trained and retrained race horses, both TBs and Arabs. I also train halter for Arabians, QH, and Morgans. I love to help kids with Showmanship. But my favorite things to do are reining and trail riding. The only thing I don't do much of on horseback is jumping, so I am not extreamly qualified there, especially in a competive sense. But, if there is a behavioral or phsyiological situation to be addressed in those areas, I usually can work it out.
I have volunteered my services to equine rehab organizations, and have been attacked, trampeled, kicked, bit, rolled over over, and smashed into walls by frightened, confused and upset full grown horses. But I have also had so many wonderful experiences with abused horses learing to trust and care, and actually looking forward to being handled and ridden after months, and sometimes years of hard work and thinking about what I am doing with them. I am one of those crazy fools who will give a "vicious" horse a chance instead of sending it out to pasture for good, or worse to the knackers.
I have found this to be the most fulfilling thing in my life, next to God and my family, to be able to connect with horses the way that I do. It is a thrill!
If anyone has any more specific questions, we can start another thread, and open it up to everyone. I love to talk about horses and help anyone and everyone, so I am open to questions of all sorts. :D
You have my respect Equinebehaviorist !!
Your bunnies are gorgeous! good luck with the breeding! And please, post more pics ;) :D
This is one of my bunny Billie!
http://users.pandora.be/bernardgabri...es/billie1.jpg
Lizbud, you may want to check out the Horse Trivia thread here in Pet General for some info and photos from Equine.:)
I have been chatting with her there and she does know her horses!
Equine, if you want to start a new horse thread I still have a couple of horse behavior questions I have been meaning to ask you.
Okeydoke. I will start one titled ask me some equine questions..... how does that sound? ;)
Thank you Lut, I LOVE your bunny! I had a sweet buck we named Clover who was kindled last summer who looked just like your bunny. He had paw that looked like he dipped it in my goat milk just up the toes. I really miss that guy. The people who were watching my rabbits for me when I was gone for a while this last fall had a toddler who left his latch open and he hopped off. There are alot of coyotes and dogs around here, and since we haven't seen him again, I have to think the worst. :(
BTW, kit update, 3 out of seven are promised to pet homes already and they won't even be ready to leave mom for another 2-3 weeks. I haven't advertised them yet, either. Fru Fru is doing great and is just a super doll. Rudy is also doing awsome and is just as fun as Fru Fru.
:D