I didn't misconstrue ANYTHING. I was saying "Hail Obana" because the song that's played whenever ANY President of the United States walks in the room is "Hail to the Chief".
You were just looking for an argument and you're not getting it.
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I didn't misconstrue ANYTHING. I was saying "Hail Obana" because the song that's played whenever ANY President of the United States walks in the room is "Hail to the Chief".
You were just looking for an argument and you're not getting it.
My opinion is that its not about the amount of money put into the system, but how the money is put into the system. Creating money out of thin air and then using it for things that do not create new products and/or services is a bad idea. Because if no new products/services are created with the "stimulus" you get massive inflation after the stimulus money is spent. Because all that "new" money ends up chasing the same amount of products and services. Its basic economics.Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
Better to let the economy (read: citizens and business) simply keep more of the money they already have via lower tax rates. This allows the economy to have REAL growth. This method is also good for government. Because as new wealth is earned, rather than created, government gets more revenue taxing it at the lower rate. It is a time proven method.
Capitalism is by no means perfect, because you will always have greedy people abusing it. But as situations like Bernie Madoff show, what goes around, comes around.
The depression of the 1930's was a global event. It was made worse by massive government interference. We should have learned from how rapidly the recession/mini depression of 1920 was overcome. Government simply let the market right itself.Quote:
The recession (if you will) right now is WORLD wide, not just the USA. We have nothing to compare it to, as far as I know.
I do not think there is anything wrong with wanting a better life for you and your family. I mean, it IS the promise of this nation. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. We just need to understand that we are NOT promised equal results.Quote:
I think the greed factor is/was our worst enemy and in some strange way, we are all guilty of wanting to earn more money on our investments, own bigger homes, drive faster gas guzzling cars, having babies we cannot now afford to educate and in some cases, feed. But we didn't sign up for the scheme part of it and we aren't getting a bonus for participating. We are getting the debt to bail out this mess. I suppose, we share that with the creeps at the top of the scheme chain, as they too, will be asked to pay taxes - maybe!
Equal people are not free and free people are never equal.
I know it is difficult for some to understand this. We as a people are caring, compassionate and kind. We do not like to see people suffer. But in a free society, those are the breaks. Of course there needs to be a method to provide for people who are truly in need. But only enough to renew their OWN ability to pursue their OWN happiness. A hand up, rather than a hand out.
Fair nuff' I reckon. And of course I was looking for an "arguement". (I prefer the word discussion.) Isn't that the entire point of this part of the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by moosmom
FWIW, "Hail to the Chief" gives me that same shudder.
Puck, you seem to have all the answers. AND you are right! Why don't you go to DC and discuss your thoughts with the politicians? They might understand it better than the folks here.
I haven't enjoyed reading many of your comments because you come off as a Mr. Know-it-all. You are abrasive and brash and simply not a gentleman.
You cannot ram facts down people's throats and expect them to have fun with it. You take the fun out of debating. You insult people.
You need a new style Puck. It is getting old.
House bill would slap surtax on AIG bonuses
Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:41am EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Democratic U.S. congressman said on Tuesday he has introduced a bill that would slap a 60 percent surtax on large bonuses to be paid to executives at bailed-out insurer American International Group Inc (AIG.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz).
Michigan Democratic Rep. Gary Peters introduced the bill and has picked up five co-sponsors. He said in a statement that the bill would "create a 60 percent surtax on bonuses over $10,000 to any company in which the U.S. government has a 79 percent or greater equity stake in the company. Currently, AIG is the only company that meets this threshold."
(Reporting by Kevin Drawbaugh; Editing by Leslie Adler):eek:
:cool: I so aggrree.. Could we have a Ref please..Quote:
Originally Posted by pomtzu
Orc? ;)Quote:
I so aggrree.. Could we have a Ref please..
:p Good One Candace.. Ok Orc is going to be the Ref here for now..Quote:
Originally Posted by Catty1
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...-STAGE_ORC.jpg
I think it's a shame that we should need one in the first place! :eek: IMO of course. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by lvpets2002
:cool: Yup I think children could DeBate better than this.. And just think we are the Adults here & to teach the children how to act.. MMmm whats wrong with this picture.. :rolleyes: Like you said we need to read & see more deeper than the Cover of a Book or Person..Quote:
Originally Posted by pomtzu
Puckstop,
How about we agree to disagree. Fair?? Friends??
Ready for Round 2.........:D
:p Yup let the Mud Slinging Begin.. I see why this chick has shorts on.. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pomtzu
I agree. AIG knew it was in big trouble long before the rest of us heard about it. Why on earth would they write contracts guarenteeing big bonuses when they knew they were sinking? Can they not spell the word DUMB? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
Of course, the Bush administration didn't help anything by giving them the first bailout with no restrictions. :rolleyes:
I vote for Pay-per-view Seppuku!
I'd even buy front row tix for that one!
Of course, it would take a while to saw thru all the fat on them bees turds!
--------------------------
My satisfaction is knowing that they all had become accustomed to a lifestyle that should end real soon.
11 top level managers left AIG overnight. The list of 'goodies' that they made that were to be purchased with their BONUSES/MERIT RAISES is worth about 2 cents or the price of the paper it's written on.
What people do not understand is that they are all panicking trying to figure out how they are going to pay for the maids, kid's college tuition, town cars, vacations, gardeners and spa treatments.
Good, I hope they all find out what the 10 most popular Top Ramen flavors are.
----------------------
That's the scariest part about climbing that corporate ladder. Sometimes the people holding on to the base have had enough and go to lunch.
Hold on, it's a long way down.
----------------------
Add and "e" to Bonus and you get the answer to the bailouts.:confused::(:o
<sigh>Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
I clearly do not have all the answers. Also, I have said before that I enjoy posting here because most of the opinion differs from that of mine. I am here to LEARN things. But also on that note, I AM a political, history and news junkie. As such, I think I am up to speed on the current goings on. Also, I read a LOT of history books by a lot of authors. Its just my thing.
Yes, in the past I was way more abrasive than I should have been. I have, repeatedly, apologized for it and am trying to move on.
My last responce to you... What did I say that makes you think I am all the things you called me? I honestly want to know. I thought I was very civil. You made a good and well thought out post, offering your opinion. I replied to it with mine. It was not an attempt to insult you, or one up you.... It is debate/discussion.
Discussion might be more fun when you are talking to people with whom you agree, but that is not debate.
I think, perhaps, you need to give me a chance top prove to you all that I have changed a bit?
Fair Dinkum. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by moosmom
I found this on the internet and don't know how accurate it is or is not, but none the less, it makes me feel a tad better, knowing that this banking fiasco and financial meltdown was just about due!
A sample of great financial and economic crises since 1870:
2008-09
Global credit crisis arising from U.S. mortgage markets
1999 to 2002
Argentina economic and banking crisis; GDP fell 15% in two years
2001
Tech bubble bursts
1998
Russian ruble crisis
Collapse of Long Term Capital Management fund
Japan bank rescue
1997-98
Asian currency crisis
1995
Mexico peso crisis
World Bank bailout of Argentina's banks
1989-93
Finland's per capita GDP falls 12.4% in wake of Berlin Wall falling
1991
Japan real estate bubble bursts
Early 90s
Swedish banking crisis
1989-91
U.S. Savings and Loan debacle, rescue cost 5% of U.S. GDP
1944-47
U.S. per capita GDP contracts 16.5%
1939-45
Second World War
1929-33
Great Depression: U.S. per capita GDP drops 29%;
Canada's falls 34.8%
1918-21
U.S. financial panic; 11.8% drop in per capita GDP
1906-08
Failure of U.S. banking trusts, per capita GDP falls 10.5%
1914-18
First World War
1893-97
U.S. recession and banking failures
1873-78
U.S. recession and banking failures
1874-78
11.7% contraction in per capita GDP in Canada
- - -
I see your point about economic booms & busts. I think some things make this one different (all this strictly my lay opinion):
1. I thought the option ARMs were so much rope a number of years ago (as in give someone enough, they'll hang themselves.)
2. Point #1 was exacerbated by greedy brokers writing fraudulent mortgage paper.
3. This fraudulent paper gets mixed in with perfectly legit, albeit risky, other subprime paper and gets sold to a hedge fund.
4. Said hedge fund is insured by AIG.
5. Housing prices crash, and ARMs reset, setting off the detonator!
6. Banks become super risk-averse, not lending. Credit enters an Ice Age.
7. The whole economy is dragged down by this mess.
Here's why I think the "bailouts" are the best of a bunch of lousy options: a. Very early data suggest that they may be working. b. This won't be the first time (S&L meltdown, anyone?) that the Fed has had to step in.
Maybe my crystal ball has a bog divot in it. But I think letting the economy "right itself" may take a lot longer (like Japan); but Americans do have a different temperament, and the oil shocks and recession have demonstrated that we can change our habits.
OK, I've rambled on WAY too long!:D:p
1998
Russian ruble crisis
Barney Rubble Crisis-BamBam and Pebbles caught playing doctor.
This sounds like a great idea. Now, they should just get this moving onQuote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
to law. I don't know anyone who isn't PO'd about AIG's demanding endless
outputs of cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbud
I too think this is a good idea. Not only would it be a vessel where the peoples anger could be tamed, but it would be a wonderful way to convince companies that taking money that is not theirs is a bad way to do business.
But also note that the stimulus bill has language in it that allowed AIG to do what they did. Bonuses were to not be allowed by companies taking the money. But a exception was made, Senator Dodd added it, that did allow bonuses that were contractually obligated to be paid. And as ES mentioned earlier, a contractual bonus is kind of a oxymoron.
I reckon Senator Dodd, who is now verbally frying AIG, learned a little something about hindsight, eh? :)
2nd UPDATE:73 At AIG Received Bonuses Of $1 Million Or More - NY AG
March 17, 2009: 03:44 PM ET
(Adds White House comment, comment from AIG spokesman beginning in ninth paragraph.)
By Chad Bray
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW YORK -(Dow Jones)- New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said Tuesday that American International Group Inc. (AIG) granted retention bonuses of $1 million or more to 73 people in its AIG Financial Products subsidiary, including 11 who no longer work at the company.
In a letter to House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank on Tuesday, Cuomo said the top 10 bonus recipients combined received $42 million, with the top recipient getting more than $6.4 million.
Cuomo has blamed the unit for the insurer's near collapse last year. The attorney general said 11 people who have left the company received retention bonuses of $1 million or more, with one person getting $4.6 million.
"Again, these payments were all made to individuals in the subsidiary whose performance led to crushing losses and the near failure of AIG," Cuomo said in the letter. "Thus, last week, AIG made more than 73 millionaires in the unit which lost so much money that it brought the firm to its knees, forcing taxpayer bailout. Something is deeply wrong with this outcome."
On Monday, Cuomo subpoenaed AIG seeking details on who received retention bonuses in the financial products unit and copies of the contracts underlying the bonuses. In his letter, Cuomo said AIG has refused to provide the names of those who received bonuses.
Over the weekend, news surfaced that AIG had paid $165 million in retention bonuses to individuals in the financial products unit on Friday.
The $165 million is the latest installment of a retention program that is slated to pay the unit's employees about $450 million. AIG had previously paid out $55 million, and an additional $230 million is pending for 2009.
The bonuses have sparked outrage on Capitol Hill and among taxpayers.
On Tuesday, the White House said it is looking into "all remedies" to recoup the bonuses after President Barack Obama denounced the payouts on Monday.
"This is a corporation that finds itself in financial distress due to recklessness and greed," Obama said Monday. "Under these circumstances, it's hard to understand how derivative traders at AIG warranted any bonuses, much less $165 million in extra pay."
Frank, D-Mass., told reporters in Washington on Tuesday that the U.S. government, which now controls an 80% equity stake in AIG, should assert its ownership of the insurer in order to block the retention payments. Frank said the government had a better chance of prevailing in court if it acted as an owner, rather than as a regulator intervening in the private sector.
Frank's committee is expected to hold a hearing on the AIG bonuses on Wednesday.
AIG has said it is contractually obligated to pay the bonuses and will make efforts to reduce the retention payments by at least 30% in 2009. The bonuses were negotiated in the first quarter of 2008 when the financial products business was expected to have a "significant ongoing role" at AIG, Chief Executive Edward Liddy said in a letter to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on Saturday.
"We understand the Attorney General's concerns, are in ongoing contact with the Attorney General and will respond appropriately to the subpoena," AIG spokesman Mark Herr said in a statement. "In the meantime, the Financial Products unit continues to work diligently to unwind operations and has made significant progress in doing so."
The insurer has accepted more than $170 billion in U.S. government funding, and government officials have said they may have to pump more money into the insurer if the economy continues to worsen. Earlier this month, it reported a $ 61.7 billion fourth-quarter loss.
In his letter Tuesday, Cuomo said the contracts his office has reviewed contained a provision that required most individuals' bonuses to be 100% of their 2007 bonuses.
"Thus, in the spring of last year, AIG chose to lock in bonuses for 2008 at 2007 levels despite obvious signs that 2008 performance would be disastrous in comparison to the year before," Cuomo said. "My office has thus begun to closely examine the circumstances under which the plan was created."
Cuomo also said AIG was able to bargain with some of its financial products employees, with those employees taking salaries of $1 in 2009 in exchange for their retention bonus packages.
"The fact that AIG engaged in this negotiation flies in the face of AIG's assertion that it had no choice but to make these lavish multi-million dollar bonus payments," Cuomo said. "It appears that AIG had far more leverage than they now claim."
-By Chad Bray, Dow Jones Newswires; 212-227-2017; [email protected]
(Jessica Holzer and Henry J. Pulizzi contributed to this report.)
(END) Dow Jones Newswires
03-17-09 1544ET
Copyright (c) 2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::o:o:o
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
Did anyone pay attention before all this happened?
BF's SO was on the board of some high flauting company that had a little to do with our econ problems?
Guard that henhouse!:rolleyes:
Is anyone paying attention now? If so, why are they going to send these bozos another bailout payment? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
I would cut them off to sink or swim in their own juices!!!
If you have the time, this article is very informative. I cannot believe it but this was written in 1994.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...26/ai_15818783
This entire mess is making me sick. We've all been "taken" and boy do I feel really stupid. Not that I could have done anything. Hindsight is 20/20!
I need to step away from this situation before I grab a gun and head for Capitol Hill. Just kidding of course, but boy do I feel we are all being taken to the cleaners. Why the hell weren't these "derivatives" being regulated? Was Greenspan in charge then?
Okay, I have another question that shows how little I truly understand this situation. Remember when the phone companies had to be split up because they constituted a monopoly? They were a lot smaller, and then some of them merged with each other, and then there were more mergers and now there are huge companies again (for example: Illinois Bell -> Ameritech -> SBC -> AT&T). Why was that not done with AIG? Why was AIG allowed to continue to operate as one enormous corporation that was recently deemed "too big to fail", instead of being split out into its component businesses? Will the company be divvied up now, I wonder?
Thanks,
Elyse
Part of the conditions of the "bailout" is that AIG sell parts of itself to pay back Uncle Sam (read: us taxpayers.) Unfortunately, with the credit market mired in the Ice Age, and cash flow nonexistent until recently, there was no one in the market for the pieces.
THe same congress braying about bonuses, gives themselves a $93,000 increase EACH* in spending money!!!!??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNRt9R7S8aM
*Edit