So the vet didn't express her or 'clean her out'?
That might give the area a bit more time to heal before it 'fills up' again.
More PT Prayers for Emma!
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So the vet didn't express her or 'clean her out'?
That might give the area a bit more time to heal before it 'fills up' again.
More PT Prayers for Emma!
Hmm, I would assume he did but didn't think to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catty1
I'm not sure what type of time frame they're giving this, though :(
Please, dear Creator - fill your creation Emma with healing and power, restore her to health. She has the will, she is loving - grant her more time on earth to be with her people, to give and share with them years of love and companionship.
Hear this prayer, and all other prayers and good thoughts for Emma.
Thank you.
I sure hope that she starts improving and feels better soon. More prayers and positive thoughts are being sent her way.
I haven't finished the rest of the thread yet, but you're exactly right!! I know people who've done it for YEARS, although I didn't have to do it very long with Buddy because he eventually recovered enough to do it himself!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Moesha
edit: OK, I'm caught up now. You need to get over to the handicapped pets bb ASAP and see the sticky post on the incontinence bb. Poop on Demand can be done tons of different ways, and you can pick one that suits you. I would also keep expressing until you're SURE she can empty herself completely when she pees; otherwise, she can get UTIs. In my experience, the bladder isn't all that prone to rupturing; when Buddy had that funky urethral spasm it took TONS of pressure to blow past it, and his didn't rupture. It takes a fair amount of pressure anyway, to blow past the sphincter.
I wouldn't set a time limit on her recovery; Buddy's injury was a lot higher and a lot more complete (he was 100% paralyzed and 100% expressed for months), but he got it all back. As CarolC says, a slow recovery is still a recovery!!!
As kb2yjx says, lactulose can be a BIG help; it's yummy, cheap, and effective, although you usually have to get it from a human pharmacy.
OK, here's the sticky I was talking about. Don't be afraid to find your own method; I had to scruff ornery Buddy with my R hand, lay him on his back on a quad-folded towel (for padding) on the floor, then express him with my L hand. I haven't heard of ANYBODY doing it that way, but you can't argue with success, and any other way needed 2 people to do it! :cool:
http://handicappedpet.net/helppets/v...ic.php?f=5&t=4
PS: same story as Emma's-- http://handicappedpet.net/helppets/v...t=11716#unread
i'm extrememly confused here--i know people who regularly express bowels and bladders for their pets, and have done so for years.
it's terrible that she has suffered this trauma--yet another story to remind us all that it is NOT safe to let our cat children outdoors unless they are in an enclosed area, because it really is NOT safe out there--but to compound it by killing her?
if the vet involved can't teach you how to express her, you might want to find one who can! and if you're learning how to do the urinary bladder in school, read ahead a few chapters and you might find the next set of instructions.
or go to HP and ask the people who do this every day. HELP HER, for heaven's sake, don't abandon her again!
MC
If nothing else, Jessika, maybe HP can find her a home. Maybe someone in your vet school can take her. I know your relatives work a lot...maybe it's time for them to slow down.
Remember the one cat who took a year to recover...euthanasia is not the answer here.
I know you are in the middle and Emma is not your cat. But please check up with your schoomates, even the vet that is treating Emma, and Handicapped Pets.
HUGS!
Abandon her again? When have any of us ever abandoned her???Quote:
Originally Posted by TenHouseCats
It's not a matter of being able to manually express them or not, she has other medical problems that go along with the trauma of being hit by a car. Maybe she isn't going because she lost the nerve function, maybe she isn't going because it hurts, maybe she isn't going because it's blocked... they don't know...
I've talked to my MIL about manually expressing her and that many cats live long, healthy lives by having to do that. But the vet doesn't feel this would be a viable option for her longterm health and longevity.
Sadly, he is giving her until Monday and if she doesn't improve by then, I actually don't know what's going to happen.
But I really don't think you think I or anyone else involved on this side of Emma's care thinks that we aren't doing all we can, but unfortunately money IS a factor in this; they aren't exactly made of money, they've struggled their whole lives, but they never hesitate to give emergency medical care to ANY of their animals if they need it... and in my opinion, in any case with any person, if the animal is going to suffer because a family can't afford necessary treatment to make the animal better, I would rather it be euthanized than subjected to a life of pain.
Please all of you understand, I'm not the one calling the shots here, and my in-laws are trusting their vet's opinions and advice when it comes to this situation. I really hope this vet will do all he can with what he has, but unfortunately the sky ISN'T the limit here. I keep bringing up manual expression, but I am obviously not a vet, and not that my MIL doesn't trust me or value my opinion, the vet DID go to school a bit longer and he may know something that I don't about her condition.
You've all been to the vet before when your pet is sick or injured and the vet is yammering on about what's going on, what happened, etc etc, but you don't hear every single word - your focus is on your pet and getting it better. So when you go home and people ask you what's wrong, you give them the synopsis and may leave out some information. I'm sure that's what's happening in this case. Unfortunately I do not have the opportunity to go with them to the vet since I leave for school at 7am and oftentimes do not get home until after 4pm; the vet office closes either by then or close to 5. I am not sure if it is open on weekends, I will have to ask her and maybe I will go with them next time and get more detailed information and ask questions that she may not have thought to ask. But with my school schedule it's really, really hard...
For now, all that I ask is that you still keep her in your thoughts, and please know that I'm trying to get all the information I can and give all the help I can for her...
THANK YOU for those links!!! I'm printing all of them out to give to my MIL and possibly take to the vet next visit!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by critters
Poor Emma. :( Prayers and positive thoughts on the way.
Catty has EXCELLENT ideas here!! Spinal cord injury generally isn't one of the more expensive disabilities; expressing is FREE!!!!! Diapers are cheap and can be free from Freecycle, yard sales, etc. Frankly, I think they need another vet who's more willing to work with them; expressing takes a little time and practice to learn, although I didn't find vet demos helpful. Some people do, but I learned more from HP and the other "plain old people" who also had to learn it. Expressing isn't hard, IMO, but practice teaches you how to tiptoe-through-the-innards to find the bladder (a waterballoon I always found right between Buddy's hips. Ace doesn't need expressing, despite his SCI).Quote:
Originally Posted by Catty1
Prayers sent for Emma.
Come on little girl.... you can do it!
Jessika, I have to admit that I've been starting to feel a little upset on your behalf at the tone that one or two of these postings have taken on. Though I'm sure that people do not mean to sound as judgmental as they do, I think some of what has been said to you would make me feel upset and defensive as well in this already stressful situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessika
I am going to try leave my own opinion out of this post, except to say that Emma remains in my prayers, as do you and your entire family. It sounds as though your in-laws are trying very hard to do what's best for Emma based on the advice of their veterinarian and their amazing daughter-in-law!
And since Emma is, after all, from the "Show-Me State", I'm rooting for her to "show us" that she's improving!
With much love and big hugs,
Diana
I totally agree with you. I am surprised at how much this little girl's plight has been on my mind. I will keep her in my prayers and keep checking for updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaducky
It's easy to offer an opinion. It's difficult to walk in another's shoes. Sometimes we have to make difficult decisions and sometimes we have to live w/the decisions that others make. No finger pointing or guilt trips here; just a bit of compassion towards you and your unfortunate situation. I've said this many times before but it bears repeating: sometimes we can only save them for a day. Peace to you and prayers that all will work out for the best for everyone involved. :) After all, it's our prayers and good thoughts that you asked for, not recriminations.
It depends on what Emma's vet says...diapers may not be an option for Emma. Hopefully if her purrents take the links on expressing to their vet, they would get feedback and know what the vet said.
Jessika - would it be easier for them to get a photocopy of the diagnosis and bring it to you? If they said you were a vet student (and you are), the vet might be happy to help your 'education'. ;)
Just a thought.
PT Prayers for Emma and all that love her.
You guys; thank you, you are all wonderful beyond words.
I have printed out some references on diapering and manually expressing bowels and bladder. Today is my little Bro in law's 8th birthday party, so I don't want to talk to my MIL about this today. She is so depressed over this. She takes her animal's injuries really hard, and eventhough she may not show it, she's really upset and depressed about Emma right now. Not to mention I found that their dog, Angel, has an open infected "sore" that I found on her yesterday where it appears her incision from her spay has reopened, eventhough it was healed up and stitches were taken out over a month ago... It's almost too much for her to handle right now.
Hubby and I were talking, and we both strongly agree that IF the ONLY problem with Emma's condition is not being able to urinate or defecate on her own, there is absolutely NO reason why we can't manually express her. I even told him, HJ look, if your parents don't or can't take on that responsibility, *I* will take her, I will teach your mother, I will adopt her, and if down the road I find I can't, I will find someone or some place that will. We both agreed that she needs to go to another vet for a second opinion (and HE said this, not me, though I agree also!!!), and there is absolutely no reason for her to be euthanized *IF* the only problem is her not being able to urinate or defecate.
Now, again, there may be other problems going on with her that I'm not aware about. Obviously her spine is broken; easy fix - amputate the tail. They are/were already planning on doing that anyway, but wanted to wait to see if she goes on her own first.
Also, she has a very nasty infection on her rear end... her anus and vulva are green and purulent and very enflamed. They do have cream that they put on it daily but I'm not sure why that may be an issue or what the cause of that is.
That is a good idea, to ask for a "vet report" so I can get everything straight from the vet, and maybe even take it to school and ask my instructors to "translate" it for me and maybe they can give me their advice and opinions.
Don't worry guys, this little girl is NOT going down without a fight, not as long as I'm here and have anything to say about it, and Hubby is behind me and Emma 100%. My MIL does trust and value my opinion and so far she HAS NOT been euthanized, otherwise it would have been done on Wednesday if it were up to the vet. She's just very stressed out right now with other personal issues as well as the issues with her pets, and I'm sure me coming up to her every day with "well manual expression blah blah" and her vet telling her something different probably isn't helping the situation any, either.
All I can say is "what a wonderful person you are - and your hubby too."
And I will continue to offer prayers for Emma.
YAY!!! I really suspect she'll be OK in the end, or at least mostly so. If she's expressed regularly, she may not need diapers; what ain't in can't leak out! LOL I only diapered Buddy at night sometimes; occasionally he got into a thing where he slept so soundly he'd drown the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessika
The butt infection is NOT typical; I wonder if those injuries came from the same incident that damaged her tail? If she's not on abx already (to prevent UTI), ideally they should pick one that covers both.
As for vets, like everybody else, not all vets are created equal. The BEST vet we've ever had was here during Buddy's first 6 months here, and she is also an RN. Vet med tends to lag behind human med, especially in relation to disabilities, so it was unheard of, at that time, to use gabapentin for nerve and spinal pain in critters. She immediately saw the validity of what I was suggesting and got right on a dose for it, whereas most vets would've given me a hard time. Now, 2 years later, it's rare but not unheard of, and Buddy helped spread the word. It broke my heart when I found out she'd gone to a practice 50+ miles away. :(
i was so happy to see this post--i am sorry that you felt that i was attacking you before, but i was really expressing my frustration, more, i think, with vets who do not, or will not, take the time to admit that they don't have all the answers.
who expects them to? there is no way any one vet can be on top of everyone that is going on in every species--that's understandable. what is NOT acceptable is those vets who will not listen, or actively look for solutions--there are specialists out there, doc, call one of them!
i love my vets, but i expect them to treat me with the respect that i, as the caretaker of my cats, deserve. i can trust them to listen to me, to tell me when they don't have the answer or haven't heard of new research or new treatment protocols yet, and to go look things up or track down the experts when that is what's indicated.
there are too many vets in this country who still consider cats nuisance animals, tho i wouldn't have believed that ten years ago. there are WAY too many who haven't opened a book since they graduated, and in the cases of catastrophic injury, or viruses like FIV and FeLV, find it much simpler to chose the easy way out--immediate euthanasia--rather than taking the time to discover that that is no one's professional recommendation any longer. it's so hard to watch someone whose beloved companion has just been sent to the bridge unnecessarily, because someone used their "credentials" to excuse their own laziness--as the guardians, we have to say, "wait a minute--i KNOW that other people have done this, i want to try."
thank you SO much for hearing what we were really saying: give emma a chance, she's been terribly injured, but who knows--love alone can work miracles. if she sees, in your eyes, that she's just fine as she is, no matter what, that's gonna help her fight to stay. i'm sure you're scared about what it gonna mean, but you are NOT alone, and this little one needs you.
MC
I hope and pray that Emma will make it through this difficult ordeal. It sounds like you and your whole family love her very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessika
It makes sense that her inability to urinate and deficate on her own at this time could be due to a number of different issues. I just hope that your MIL and the vet will give her more time than Monday to figure this whole thing out. It might be something that could ultimately resolve itself or be resolved without major intervention but might require a week or 2 weeks rather than 2 more days.
But it sounds like Emma may be going for a second opinion which I think is a great idea. Hopefully this will give your MIL some peace, just having some more information available to her, either way.
Do they have Emma on an antibiotic drip? Seems like this girl could use all the infection power she can get at this point. She has sure been through alot but it sounds like she is a fighter! The mere fact that she made it home on her own after whatever happened to her is a miracle.Quote:
Also, she has a very nasty infection on her rear end... her anus and vulva are green and purulent and very enflamed. They do have cream that they put on it daily but I'm not sure why that may be an issue or what the cause of that is.
I think this a really good idea too. The more veterinary inclined people looking at this case the better. Emma sure has alot of people working hard on her behalf. Especially you! :)Quote:
That is a good idea, to ask for a "vet report" so I can get everything straight from the vet, and maybe even take it to school and ask my instructors to "translate" it for me and maybe they can give me their advice and opinions
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessika
Poor Emma... do you think someone abused her and that is what is causing the infection? It's horrendous to think about, but that's what the description is making me think. :( :(
I hope she can get an antibiotic, a strong one...it may help with healing the nerve areas if they are compressed by infected and swollen areas.
She might be on one already - but maybe the vet didn't want to 'waste' meds on a cat that was going to be PTS.
Could Emma get a second opinion at your school? With vets that are teaching you guys all the NEW stuff - ask around! It can't hurt - especially to get a recommendation on someone to get a second opinion from!
Prayers for all of you. Give Emma a scritch for me.
I was wondering the same thing. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by jenn_librarian
Whatever caused it...I think the main thing is to get it treated ASAP. I am not sure what ointment would do, so I hope Emma gets on an internal antibiotic soon.
{{{{hugs}}}} to that sweet girl.:love:
I think what caused the trauma makes a difference as to how it is treated, and what is being treated. If there is internal trauma, if she was abused in such a way, it would be medicated and treated in a different way than if it were just "nerve damage" as you suggest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catty1
Hope a 2nd opinion can get gotten, and that Emma will get better.
Gentle hugs to the sweet girl!
Lots of prayers and positive thoughts are still going out to Emma.
Small update to let you all know that I do not believe my inlaws feel euthanizing her is ethical if her only problem is incontinence since she can be manually expressed and still live a happy life. I believe they are on my side on this; I know my FIL agrees with us and my MIL does as well, and obviously hubby and I feel very strongly against it. I did give my MIL the information I printed out and she's been looking through it. I suggested they go to another vet for a second opinion; however, we haven't "officially" sat down together to talk it over yet.
But I feel fairly confident that she will not be euthanized IF her only problem is incontinence. :)
She still is not going on her own, however, and her infection is still pretty bad. I do not know when her next appointment is.
** SMALL UPDATE **
Emma's scheduled for a vet visit tomorrow. Tonight I talked with my MIL about diaper possibilities for her. She said she tried some diapers on her today but she didn't take to them very well. Considering she still has a spinal injury and tail has not been amputated yet, that makes sense. Even then, it will take some time getting used to wearing a diaper, I'm sure! So we're looking at possibilities there -- my SIL had a baby in December, and so my in laws have a huge bag of diapers from earlier this year that are way too small for my nephew now, I think we're going to try those out.
I have not visited her today, but my MIL said that her infection is looking a lot better and she is starting to groom that area again - I hope this is good news, it appears as though she's either trying to stimulate herself to go or is trying to nurse her wounds. Hopefully it means she has the sensation of needing to use the restroom!
I also asked my MIL if it were possible to ask the vet for a copy of Emma's vet report after her visit so I can read over it and/or bring it to school with me on Wednesday. Best case scenario with copies of the xrays, but I'm sure I won't get those, lol.
Your thoughts and prayers are working, guys!! This girl is a fighter!! I think she's starting to pull through!
Jessika,
I have been following this thread for a few days and you have been doing such a wonderful job. You have been proactive in researching what you can do to help and you have been wonderful in working with your in-laws and the vet. Whatever you do, keep up the hope. Also being a mommy of a sick pet, I know sometimes it can get pretty hopeless and decisions on what to do can get really difficult. By keeping your heart and head high, and doing what you can (which is what you have been doing), this baby knows that she is being taking well care off. I want you to know that you have my thoughts and prayers - please keep us updated!:love:
This all sounds good! You never know; maybe they'll loan you the xrays, but, actually, I wouldn't expect the xrays to be all that helpful anyway. Congrats on the built-in diaper supply. LOL. 8 pound Buddy wore size 3, and I had to Freecycle several packs before I figured that out!! Buddy had a tail, but it's MUCH easier to diaper without one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessika
The infection still concerns me some, but at least it's getting better, even with no antibiotics.
I will reiterate and say she HAS been on antibiotics for the infection -- Clavamox I think? And she has been on it since they brought her to the vet for the first time last Monday. I just didn't see it in there on the counter but was looking through their papers yesterday from the first visit and saw it listed on there as being prescribed.
Still has blood in her urine, but that's understandable. Her tail is "dead", but we knew that anyway (hence the amputation). And she has been keeping herself pretty clean, and that's a good sign!!
I believe we're on the road to recovery, even if she never regains control over her bowels, she definitely won't be euthanized :)
I hope the infection clears up quickly - and Emma feels better and recovers...heck, go for FULL recovery for Emma! :D
Are they waiting til the infection is gone before they amputate her tail? Is she seeing another vet - or are you going to just take her records to school? (I am sure one of your instructors would have the 'clout' to get them released to you). :)
Emma is cleaning herself, and that tells me she has no other intention except to live! :)
The vet will amputate as soon as my in-laws schedule the surgery, however he's still against manual elimination according to my MIL and she says he thinks it isn't a good idea. Personally maybe he's just so used to people not caring, but bottom line, they are clearly telling him what they want to do and he's still advising against it... that just doesn't make sense to me whatsoever... her quality of life will still be the same, just a little different!
I'm assuming my inlaws are just waiting for the infection to clear up, so the surgery will probably be scheduled very soon now.
But they told him, bottom line, they do not feel comfortable euthanizing her if the only problem is incontinence, so it won't happen, period. :)
Sounds good!
I still wonder if they might be better off with a second opinion - another vet who will work WITH them and Emma on the manual elimination.
I hope that does turn out to be her only problem.
How is Emma being eliminated now? I think you got the hang of the pee part? (thinking a more cooperative vet would help in this area too). How are her spirits?
{{{hugs}}} to you and your in-laws - good for them for standing up for Emma! :)
I'm really surprised that the vet would be so resistant to keeping an animal alive if their only problem will be the elimination and the owners are willing to manually express her to keep her healthy and happy.
Makes you wonder what he'd do if it were his pet. :confused: :(
Hoping for the best for Emma.
I think that maybe he's just not used to owners having this type of motivation; many pet owners wouldn't want to do it and would choose to euthanize instead, so maybe he's just had so many that want to give up, he's not even sure how to handle the cases where they DON'T want to give up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenn_librarian
Regardless, he is going to give them the treatment they want, since they are paying him for it, after all. But the way my MIL makes it sound is that he still is against manually expressing her.
I don't manually express her now; I believe my MIL goes up a few times a day and rubs her belly and it does it on its own, it isn't even too hard she says. She's still looking for diaper ideas though, as I said she tried some the other day but since Emma's spine is still broken and tail hasn't been amputated, she's obviously still in some pain, not to mention she would have to get used to wearing the diaper, NO animal would like that at first because they're not used to it. I'm sure the baby diapers will work fine, she will just have to get used to them after the amputation.
I agree they do need a second opinion, but this clinic is offering to work with them financially and that's really important to them, because these bills haven't been cheap for this girl!! Not many clinics in the St Louis area will work with lower-income families, most won't even accept post-dated checks, much less payments!
OK...sounds good. Maybe your in-laws will restore the vet's faith in human nature!;)
Still, would one of your profs take it on just as a class discussion? Is there a class where this would fit? You'd be a TOTALLY informed kitty-aunt by the time that was done.:)
PS - if your MIL is literally just 'rubbing her tummy' and she pees...sounds like she is responding to some stimulation, and is not being 'squeezed'. If that is what is happening, that sounds hopeful.
I love how Catty1 tries to think of every possible angle for every situation. I'm glad to hear the good updates coming from Emma. Does she have her amputation scheduled?