Maybe we are all being too subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
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Maybe we are all being too subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
Well do you think if she was sick i would not take her to the vet? Infact today we had an app at 5 and we did go. What makes you think i wont take her to the vet?
I will do anything to make sure this puppies make it sound and healthy.
When you get a dog you are making a commitment that no matter what happends she/he will get the care they deserve, that goes if she is pregnant or not. So i dont see a problem here.
My point about the vet is this:
You were complaining about adoption fees.
You have a pregnant dog.
The pregnant dog's vet bills could easily run into the $1000 range by the time all is said and done. That's enough money to save several dogs from being put to sleep.
SPAY THE DOG! :mad: Spend the money at the shelter instead of the vet's office!
The problem is that there are approximately 3-4 million dogs and puppies in shelters yearly. Of those dogs, 56.4% are euthanized.
Is that clear enough? It's a matter of ETHICS, not physical "rights and wrongs". Is it ethical to breed litters of mixed breed dogs for the sole purpose of "companionship" when there are literally 3-4 million of these type of dogs languishing in shelters every year? As much as you want to live in your fantasy world, not every one of your puppy buyers will be able to provide a stable home for life. It's the hard, cold truth. And I'd be glad to discuss this with you 5 years from now when your dog's puppies are no longer cute and fluffy and when their owners are going through life problems like marital and moving issues.
But since you don't seem concerned with the ethical implications, let me lay it out in a medical sense:
Are your and your friend's dog tested for every single possible congenital disease? PRA? Luxating patellas? Do either of your dogs have a genetic predisposition to epilepsy (this is, by the way, impossible to determine without a pedigree)? Do they have genetic predispositions to cancer (again, can't determine without a pedigree)?
What will you do when your dog's puppies suddenly develop these health problems? If you can deal with the guilt, go ahead - breed. Personally, I can't subject other dogs to die while I breed potentially unhealthy puppies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
The fact that this person (the OP) posted the same situation on another forum I'm on and got A LOT of great advice and information (people were slightly nicer there, though.) Seems not much will get through to the OP and I wish her and her dog luck.
Just like my mom says THERE IS NO CURE FOR STUPID!!
And that is all this women is... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I wasn't aware that breeding your dog by accident was PART of that commitment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
This breeding was an accident. And just to let you all know when the Poodle was over it was Nenas 3rd day into heat and someone well said to me that they cant get pregnant untill day 11 or so i believe. No one was born knowing it all.
These puppies will get ALL that is needed for them PERIOD.
So go to a shelter, pick out two dogs, and pay for them to be PTS.
Essentially, that's what you are doing by breeding mixed breed dogs. There could be shelter puppies/dogs being adopted, but no, you breed more mutts.
Might as well make it official and do it in person.
You aparently dont get it do you? Before getting Nena i moved the eath to try to adopt and NO just because one side on my home was NOT fenced the dogs where given to someone else who i then saw adopting them out again because she was moving. If the dogs would of come home with me right now and forever will still be with me!
And NO i am NOT a breeder how dare you say that? ONE mistake makes you into something your not? Dont you get it i am getting my dog spayed after this and her puppies as well. You all seem to find something wrong every single time to turn this around. But i seriously dont care what you think of me really. I know i love my dog and will do whatever it takes for the puppies to make it.
No, we get it completely.
You, however, are ignorant beyond words.
By the way i was NOT complaining money wise. I was making a point about how a NON kill shelter could ask so much when a kill shelter asks for so little thats all. And a non kill shelter could make a HUGE mistake like calling a Puggle a purebred and charging as much as they do with purebred dogs.
Do you know what a non kill shelter even is? It's run all by foster parents, so of course there going to cost more. It cost more to have animals in foster homes, instead of keeping them in cages. Adopting a dog is really cheap compared to buying it from a breeder. They come already neutered/spayed, vaccinated, wormed, mircrochipped, and many other things.
ON A HAPPY NOTE I BECOME A FOSTER MOMMY ON MONDAY I WILL POST PICTURES FOR ALL YOU THAT SUPPORT THE SAME CAUSE I DO.... :D :p
OH AND LIKE I STATED EARLIER THERE IS NO CURE FOR STUPID PEOPLE :mad:
I rather donate to a kill shelter then a non kill shelter, they GOT all the time in the world for those dogs others get 10 days!!
OH AND LIKE I STATED EARLIER THERE IS NO CURE FOR STUPID PEOPLE
Ohhh really? Thats interesting guess you where one of those born genious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
Your above comment just proves my point. :D :rolleyes:
Your above comment just proves my point.
Thanks glad i could help out =]
While I don't think Scottie's attitude towards our responses has been nice, neither have most of the responses. You guys have to remember that name calling and telling someone how irresponsible they are is not a means of educating them. It's a wonder that she comes back. She is not getting much advice except for from a few people. If we want to stop irresponsible breeding we need to educate and it needs to be done in a mature manner. Otherwise you stir up emotions and the people no longer want to take advice from you.
ScottieMommy, I hope for your dog's sake that she is not pregnant. She is just a baby herself. Whether or not she is pregnant, once she is through this please spay her. If you want to go about breeding in a responsible manner you will need to become serious about showing and health testing. Responsible breeders spend countless hours researching pedigrees and traveling to dog shows. Thousands of dollars are spent on travel expenses, health testing, stud dog fees, vet bills, and many more costs that many people do not realize. In most cases, even if the puppies are sold for $1000 each, the breeder will lose a great deal of money. They always take back their puppies, even at 12 years old, for ANY reason. And, at the end of the day, they did it for the love of their breed. To preserve and improve a breed that they hold dear to their heart. If you want to breed and be responsible, this is what will be asked of you.
I encourage you to really do some research. Responsible breeders have years of research - both text and hands on - before they even consider breeding their first litter. Buy books on breeding, don't just read the internet. Anyone can post something on the internet and make it look official. Talk to breeders, especially Scottie breeders (or Poodle, Westie, whatever breed you are interested in). Go to dog shows. Really research. And if you still wish to breed, you will know how to go about it. You will be ready in case something goes wrong. After all, there are many problems that can arise before, during, and after whelp.
Re: vaccinating while pregnant - that is a very bad idea. Just like human doctors, there are good veterinarians and bad veterinarians. Remember someone had to have graduated at the bottom of the class...
I have some wonderful websites that I had bookmarked on my old computer but I do not have them on this new one, otherwise I would post them for you. I also have some books I could recommend, but it is late and I have a DOG SHOW (:D) in the morning.
Also, I'd just like to point out really quick the RedyreRotties is a wonderful source of information. She is a very responsible breeder and her advice is wonderful. Please look over her initial post with an open mind.
No, but he is willing to learn. ARE YOU?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
Go back and, for the love of DoG, read my first post.
Furthermore, nobody has accused you of being anything you never claimed yourself to be. You called yourself a breeder:
I'm sorry that one adoption group didn't adopt out to you, but you don't have to retaliate by murdering shelter puppies with your actions. Abort the litter now, and save the lives of dogs who are already on death row. We do not need any more puppies in this heavily overpopulated world.Quote:
I have a female Black and Brindle Scottish Terrier. She will come into her second heat cycle soon and i was hoping i could find a stud to breed her. I am either looking for a purebred Scottish Terrier any color, or any color Toy Poodle. Nena is 20lbs and very healthy, she has her Pedigree but no AKC. I am NOT looking for the perfect dog must be healthy but does not need Pedigree or AKC papers. This puppies will stay in the family. I am either looking to pay $150 or under or pick of litter. I am located in Naples, FL and willing to travel to cities close. Please email me with your dog's info and picture if possible, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
While you weren't responding to my comment with that response, however I have to respond to this one.
How many people does a person have to kill to be a murderer?
Answer: Only one
How many lies does a person have to tell to be a liar?
Answer: Only one
How many buildings does a person have to burn down to be an arsonist?
Answer: Only one
How many litters of puppies does a person have to produce to be a breeder?
Answer: Only one
The above statement, apparently by you, and posted by critter crazy speaks for itself. Looks like this breeding was pretty intentional. My pet peeve especially is any dog with *poo* tacked on the end. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by critter crazy
Ugggh!!! See, this is the attitude right here that i find disgusting! Would you suggest the same thing to a human mother that hasn't even had one child yet?
I can see if this dog had been mated by something twice its size getting an abortion, but not for something like this.
These pups are on the way whether you like it or not, let's at least be civil with this poster and give as much advice as we can for a HEALTHY mom and litter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom
It is NOT pathetic. A lot of times these dogs come to these rescues in very poor condition and need a lot of vet care. Not to mention the time they spend in the care of the rescue. There's the cost of food. The cost of gas if the rescues do adoption day events.
You may spend a very low price for a shelter dog, but you spend just as much, if not more in vets costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
Sadly some rescues get hopped up on some ego trip and don't look far enough into the situations. They become blind to the reality of the world. They don't budge for anything. They don't realize how much harm they do by being overprotective. They forget that sometimes they have to let go.
On the opposite end of that... perhaps that particular dog really really really needed a fully fenced in yard. Some personalities are like that. Those people may have seemed like the best choice at the time.
I've been on both sides of the fence. I was denied an adoption because i was younger than they thought i was in our conversations (yet I met their age requirement according to their rules.) And I'm also involved in the rescue circuit. I've seen the ups and downs in both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
Thanks everyone for pointing all that out. I agree with everything, yes about the shelter too.
And one MORE time as for the ADD can someone PLEASE stop posting it? I am SURE we have covered that if not go back and real the WHOLE thread if you did not, thanks.
By the way when i said something about the abortion in some other forums and compare them with a child people went nuts on me! Dont we always say animals are like humans? I said you would NOT abort a child if you did not have money to care for yourself or you do not have the time to love that child. Because there are wonderful people who cant have children and thanks to those who dont abort their dream comes true. Why? Why do we think we can do this to a dog? Because she CANT talk and is smaller than us? I am sure she has a heart, she can feel her mother instincts by now. I would never do such thing UNLESS her life was really on the edge.
Because thousands of children don't die in our country on a daily basis because there are no homes for them.
However, because there are people who think little Fifi would make a great momma, and so and so wants a puppy - there are thousands of completely sound, healthy puppies dying in the shelter daily. Because some shelters are so overrun they don't have the means to do it humanely, either.
Just because YOUR puppies won't go to the shelter doesn't stop the other puppies already in the shelter from dying. It's all about "Help control the pet population; have your pet spayed or neutered."
Crow_Noir, comparing dogs and comparing children is like comparing apples to oranges. When kids are put to sleep by the millions each year, then you can bring them into the picture. I am not trying to be rude, and perhaps in someone else's case I have failed to do that, but honestly one thing I can't stand is when kids are brought into the picture of the unwanted pet population and breeding.
Ok so if shelters are SO stickt then where should i go to adopt a dog? If you want the dog overpopulation to shop then find a way to shut down PUPPYMILLS where they have over 150 dogs breeding over and over a day and having litters every single day! And you worry about me? For having ONE litter of TWO puppies and then getting her spayed? You aparently have NOT seen how they offer dogs in auctions at 60 days pregnant or so to make more money, THATS CRUELTY. My dog is in inside dog, gets everything she needs, vet care is always at hand and she will get spayed and so will her puppies. Whats done is done and i am not going back. But you can be darn sure these puppies will be loved and cared for. They where unplanned NOT unloved.
Are you suggesting that because someone has produced 150 poorly bred puppies, that it is not bad to produce two poorly bred puppies? I am not sure I agree with that philosophy anymore than I would agree that it is alright to abuse only one dog as long as you don't abuse 150. It is not alright to produce puppies that are not planned, tested, and have potential homes. Have you found out definitively how many puppies she is carrying? What are your plans if she has six puppies? Are financial able to keep them all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottiemommy
Unfortunately no matter what the people say here, we are never going to stamp out irresponsible dog ownership. But it would be wrong to condone it. You should have had your dog spayed for many reasons. You didn't. You should have been responsible for your dog when she was in heat. You weren't. If you are a true dog lover you should be an advocate for dogs that are unwanted and suffering, not ignore them so that you can produce cute little puppies. I am not sure why you are finding it necessary to convince us that what you are doing, and apparently have been planning to do, is a good thing. It is not.
http://www.pawsoftulsa.org/spaytosave/just1litter.htm
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/justonelitter.html
From http://www.fmhs.org/sn/why.asp
Quote:
Simple arithmetic illustrates how "just one litter" contributes to the mass killing: Two dogs breed. Six offspring are born. The six offspring reproduce within one year, and are responsible for six offspring each. In one year a litter of six can become 36. And unfortunately, it doesn't stop there. At the end of ten years just one unaltered dog can be responsible for 4,372 births. One unaltered cat can be responsible for 420,000 kittens in just seven years!
ScottyMom - I think one of the issues people are having with you, that you have failed to realize, is your inconsistency.
In several posts on other forums you've made, you were looking for any male to breed your dog with because your dog was going to be coming into heat 'soon'. To people on this board that suggests that you hadn't done your homework on breeding months, or even a year or more ahead of time which reputable breeders do.
In other posts here you said this breeding was 'accidental' and claimed you were not a breeder. To people on this board that either suggests that you are changing your story or at the least you have been very irrisponsible with your dog in heat to allow an intact male dog near her at anytime.
Many people on this board go to great lengths to foster, rescue, and spend many hours donating their time at local shelters and encouraging spay/neuter clinics to help fight the overpopulation problem. You say the thing is to shut down the puppymills, many of the people here are trying to do just that, but that is only part of the problem. As long as there are thousands if not millions of BYB's the problem will continue even if every puppymill were shut down already.
The fact your dog may/man not be pregnant is not what angers people on this board, the fact you've posted ads wanting to irrisponsibly breed her, and the fact you are not a knowledgable breeder, and you have an inconsistent story is what does anger people on this board.
You said you had looked on petfinder 'once' for puppies, many times there are new puppies posted weekly, you should have kept checking back if you were truely interested in rescuing one.
If you were turned down at 'one' place for adoption you could have tried several other places to adopt from if you were truely interested. If renting was a problem for them you could have done the legwork by getting a written statement from your landlord telling them how you take care of your pets, as well as a letter from your veterinarian stating that you do provide proper vet care to the dog you already have. I'm sure a good shelter would see that as a sign of a responsible pet owner. Of course around here our shelters call the vet references and check to see if the current pets are already spayed/neutered, and the fact your dog is not may have had a HUGE impact on them not adopting to you, have you considered that fact?
You've stated that your grandmother was not looking for a puppy at the moment, however she would take one if your dog had puppies. Has it occured to you that if she really wanted a puppy so badly she also would have went to great lengths to adopt one herself? Or that possibly she's just taking one of your pups just out of charity rather than a great desire to have a puppy? Does she realize even if she had one of your dog's puppies that it would not be just like the dog you have, since every puppy is unique in personality?
You said this breeding was 'accidental' because 'someone told you' they couldn't get pregnant that soon after going into a heat cycle. Had it occured to you to call your vet or speak to a reputable breeder to find out for sure before your dog went into heat? Everyday at work people come in and spend money that they wouldn't have had to spend if they had just called our office first for advice instead of thinking that their friends or neighbors knew more about pets than the vet who took years of college classes to get a degree.
People on this board are not trying to be rude to you, they are reacting to your apparent lack of knowledge concerning a dog in heat, pregnancy and the inconsistencies in your story. Whether you take it as rude, they ARE trying to educate you so that this does not happen again, and that you might be able to pass that knowledge on to others to stop back yard breeding.
I don't know what you were looking for when you posted to this board. From what it appears to me is that:
1) You have no clue what to be feeding your dog despite your vet apparently telling you to continue feeding as you had been.
2) You post pictures of your dog asking the board to tell you if they think she's pregnant, which none of us can do, despite already having asked your vet that question.
If you're looking for congratulations for your dog possibly being pregnant, you'd be further ahead to just stick with your own friends and family for that, this board will likely not give you any pats on the back for it.
If you're looking for medical advice as to whether your dog is pregnant you'd be further ahead to make an appointment with your vet and have the x-ray done at 50-55 days which IS the custom to acurately count puppies.
Rather than getting angry at everyone here because they don't say what you want to hear, and I'm not really sure what it is you do want to hear, maybe you should just try starting a new thread and being specific in what questions you actually do have and really listen to the advice people have for you.
You said what I was thinking. This person is performing in front of the wrong audience, for sure.
Thanks for saying it in detail, tactfully, and truthfully.
I had Scotties when I was a kid. I loved them so. We never bred them, just loved them to pieces. They do come with their built in issues, like many breeds. I feel sorry for this pup. I trust she is loved.
I hope this person sees the light soon.
Ok so aparently you CANT get anyone's help anywhere i see. Leaving it all behind. Why when people ask a question you respond with another one?
If you are trying to make ME abort the litter that WONT happen so save your words. She will have them unless her life is on the edge like i said.
Im sorry but I think most of you people on here with the attitudes are pathetic!!! It's her dog and if she wants to breed her thats her buisness! my parents have breed our dog and the last littler i posted on here and I got nothing but mean and hurtfull comments and the puppy she had was a still born! But when someone comes on here and asks for advice and they get nothing but attitude that is perty sad and pathetic! :mad: :eek: :mad:
and as for advice I go to dctor william trusdale and he recomended givin my dog little bits rasberry leaf tea mixed in with her food just the leaf's though and if shes in labor and nothing happens within 24 hours i'd get her to the vet o and Uhm I would get a whelping box towels and a heating pad. and if she has a hard time produceing milk doctor trusdale recomended yogurt for her well I hope I was some help. and I'd like to apoligize for all of the rude irigent people on Pet Talk good luck with your pups! hope you keep us updated and share picures! :)
Justin and the loved pets.
You cant help, those who dont want to be helped! Everyone has voiced their opinions, you just dont like what they have said. We have tried!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieMommy
I am not sure what help you are looking for anyways?? people have told you the best ways to care for your dog, while pregnant. what more do you need??
I your first post, you asked what we thought in reguards to your dog possibly being prgnant- we cannot tell from pics, you need to get an ultra sound, simple.
In your second post, you asked if you were feding her too much- you need to feed your dog a proper diet, which does not include people food. this is in no way good for any dog, let alone a pregnant one.
You also raised concerns reguarding her vomiting and Diarhea- This could be caused by the change in food, the added human food, or many numerous things. If she is still vommiting and having diarhea i would take her to the vets to get checked out.
as far as I can tell, all your questions thus far has been answered. Not sure what else you are looking for?
as far as peole asking questions, while you are looking for answers, well sometimes we need more info to give you the correct answers.
is there anything I have missed??
http://clubs.akc.org/stca/geneticissues.htm
I wonder, have you had the VetGen vWD test done on your bitch?
How about testing for thyroid function? Cataracts?
inlovewithanimals
No need to apologize for me, thank you. My replies are neither rude nor ignorant.Quote:
I'd like to apoligize for all of the rude irigent people on Pet Talk
Rude and ignorant (I'm assuming that's what you meant) is random breeding of mutts while there are dogs in shelters.
First of all, if she posts this on a public forum and asks for opinions, that is exactly what she is going to get! :rolleyes: Just because she doesn't like them, she is rude back. Is this our fault? NO! Secondly, don't apologize for me thanks. I am capable of doing that myself if I feel it is necessary and in this case it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by inlovewithanimals
You obviously used the wrong words when you said rude and ignorant. We're only rude to people who are rude to us, which she was. Ignorance is what you and her both have. You can't see OUR POINT! I am SORRY if I care about the unwanted dog population and millions upon millions of dogs being put to sleep each year in shelters because of people who have no right to be breeding dogs. This posts really makes me judge your love for dogs. When uneducated people breed dogs, they forget they take away homes for the dogs in shelters and can care less about the poor critters dying.
I love how people call us all ignorant yet they can't see our point and completely ignore what is trying to be said.
I wasnt talking about anyoine specific but now you are being!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Ok you eally have some nearve to judge people like that!!! I thought PT was to help people which apparetly you arnt doing!!!And I love my dogs jsut like you love your just because people breed theire dogs doesnt meen we dont love them ok so thanks but no thanks for the attitude!!!