I know the norm but I am just showing that it is not a legal requirement and it is agianst the law for a business to require it to allow access.
Nicole
Printable View
I know the norm but I am just showing that it is not a legal requirement and it is agianst the law for a business to require it to allow access.
Nicole
Quote:
Originally Posted by borzoimom
You are right about this borzoid. It is normal practice for dogs to have ID. As for Canada, they are discussing throwing Aces and ADP out the window as they seem to make up their own laws governing service dogs. Canadians do not abide by this. As for service dogs being accepted, if they are certified and have proper ID they are allowed access rights. Not just guide dogs, but assistance dogs for m.s or other similar disabilities, hearing dogs,etc. What is not recognized in Canada is owner trained dogs, Canada does not recognize PSD or PTS dogs as there is really no training facility for this. They are merely thought of as comfort dogs. But if you have proper documentation there is no trouble gaining access anywhere. I know of 2 epilepsy dogs( this was a natural trait), and 4 mobility dogs and I'm sure there are more. I guess each country has their own rules. In Europe any dog is welcomed anywhere, cafes, stores, shopping malls etc. Wish it were so in our part of the world. :)
wow what a story
There is so much in this that is funny. First of all ACES is American. lol And is a Non for profit Advocacy group that teaches law enforcement, hospitals and public businesses what the federal law is pertaining to Service Dogs and what should be done when they come in contact with a service dog and their handler. You should do some research before you make a blantant claim about something you know nothing about. LOL I will have to show Judi this thread(founder of ACES) she will find this truely laughable just like the other lies you tried to post about her on other forums. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by mike001
Check your Canadian laws. I have told you on other forums to do this but you never do. I even give you the links to the laws and still you refuse to look. If you refuse to gain the knowledge then stop spreading lies. In Canada there is only One type of Service dog that is accepted and protected by the laws in all provinces. That is Guide Dogs. All teh provinces make up their own laws regaurding Service Dogs. And yes Owner Trained dogs are accepted. They have the same rights as all the other service dogs which is at teh discresion of the store or business. Most businesses luckily are very aware of the different types of Service dogs and as such allow them.
Hwo do I know about teh laws? I have a PSD. And there is finnally a PSD that has been certified in Canada by a trainer. There are many PSD's in Canada. And there is 2 training facilities in Canada now that train PSD's. One in fact is in Ontario. So next time you make another claim you know nothing about do your research. PLEASE. I am so sick of correcting you when you post crap ,like this on a forum. And agian to show how uneducated you are their is no such thing as a service dog called a PTS. PTS means Put To Sleep. GESH but thanks for the laugh.
Nicole
I just read something that I am VERY happy about. Here is the link(you might have to cut and paste:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oATZRYK...oBlankname.pdf
Notice Under the Ontario Human Rights Code it says "The law requires Access for both persons who require a guide/service dog due to a mental disability" meaning PSD's included. I have never seen this though it is dated 2005. I have only been learning about the Service dog laws for about 4 years so I still have a long way to go. Judi(my trainer) said it will never stop. Now remember this is Ontario. Each province governs itself when it comes to the Service dog laws. And notice that no mention of certifaction is required. Only a letter from a doctor(which I carry every where with me). WOW I was so excited to see this. Now if we can just get teh laws rewritten to have all service dogs mentioned instead of just guide dogs we will be all set. lol
Nicole & Sheena
good I'm just reading this now and was going to post that if someone didn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
they only let her finish shopping because she refused to leave. Exceptions are for if the business has to make unreasonable acommedations, a giant breed dog or say full sized horse instead of a mini horse guide laying in the middle of an isle at a restaurant causing people to have to climb over or wait, Some people use large breeds but they are trained to "be small", or not being allowed to take a service dog into a petting zoo where it would scare the animals, behaved dog or not, causing a stampede over the little kids present, if it miss behaves. Claiming you or the customers might be scared or uncomfortable isn't good enough unless you litteraly have a phobia where you turn into a screaming crying ect person at the site of one, then maybe, otherwise anyone could keep all service animals out due to discomfort or the possibility of customers getting upset.
Again I will reiterate,
No animal here is required to wear vest, collar Id tag, or identification of its Service, it is ENCOURAGED that the owners do so and if owner trained to have it certified, as traveling with a Service animal is easier and less time consuming. It is NOT necessary.
There are several bills being looked into to change and tighten up the law a bit, and maybe they will pass, maybe not.
Point is Nicole is correct and gave a few other websites I would have also given. After nearly 16 years in training and working with several types of Service animals, I must say I couldn't have explained it better myself.
Point of the original OP was that the dog was discriminated against the breed. That may be true but Wal-mart was still within their legal rights, the transaction was allowed to conclude.
The owner of the animal; we will presume was aware of responsibilities as a Service dog user. I say presume as she seems aware, if a bit misinformed of her "legal rights". None of which were infringed upon , unless there is a law that cutting a shopping trip short is now illegal.
On that note she could have also removed the animal shopped until she dropped and no harm done. She chose to try to make it about the breed and the breed only, and that is simple grandstanding.
Just my thoughts ,
kym
Almost not quite, you can as another customer claim you are allergic, and also threaten to leave, in that scenario, the animal can also be asked to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl
Your child may have a fear of dogs, if you had been seated first, and the Service animal is causing or will cause undue stress on another patron you can legally be refused service.
If the animal is in a movie theatre and causes a disturbance, barking ,whining, lying in a darkened aisle that may pose a risk to others , you can also be asked to remove the animal.
So actually yes if the other people are impacted in their experience at the merchants in a negative way then it doesn't matter if they are crying or hysterical, simply that they would be impacted negatively, and that if another patron would be asked to leave and was NOT disabled then it is legal to ask them to go. or to refuse service.
Actually that is not quite true. In the case of allergy or fear then the business would first have to try and accomidate both parties. So say you are shopping in Walmart(fairly large store) and someone has a fear or allergy and complains. The store would first have to try and accomidate both parties. They could do this by asking the people to avoid each other, ask one to shop then the other, see if they can shop in different departments and so on. Now if the dog was causing a distrubance as you said they can be asked to be removed from the premisies. The trick is reasonable accomidation. Here is a link about that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/svcanimb.htm
"Allergies and fear of animals are generally not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people with service animals."
Thanks for backing up my statements in the other posts. I am fairly new to the Service Dog laws of Canada and the States(only at it about 4 yrs, have had my servcie dog for 3 years now). But I have been lucky to be learning for one of the best ladies around about Service Dogs. Her name is Judi Bayly and she trained the first ever 911 dog and started ACES a non for profit Advacocy Group about Service dogs. Any time I have a question or I am unsure about anything I can go to her. She is a wealth of info and has to keep up with all the laws since she teaches Law enforcment, hospitals and so forth about them. The rare time she doesn't have the answer she then knows how to get it. So I am blessed that way. For anyone involved in Servcie Dogs at all in any way they should keep informed of the laws. Simply because we have to be examples for all Service dog teams.
Nicole
Nicole ,
you are right in the reasonable accomodation, however bear in mind I was simplifying it for the sake of cutting the earlier threads argument short. Meaning the person doesn't have to be hysterical or crying etc.
Point was if the other patrons are impacted negatively, and if the patron who is impacting would be asked to leave IF they were NOT disabled, then, yes they can be asked to either remove the animal, or to be refused service.
I am thrilled to hear that you are blessed by a Service animal, and wish you both many years of mutal benefit and happiness!
I completely agree. Sometimes I forget I am talking to people who don't know a lot of the ins and outs of the Service Dog world(not meaning you) and forget to simplify things. LOL. I get set in one midset and forget. lol
Thanks. I am blessed to have her and she has given me a life i never thought I could have.
Nicole
I just wanted to throw in here that I got to walk with a seeing eye dog last week and it was a real eye-opener (pun acknowledged. :p). This dog was amazing, and the way he navigated me, a total stranger to being "blind" or using a seeing eye dog, around a room was incredible. I am so in awe of the folks who train these dogs, as well as the people who build the relationship and the trust to rely on ANY service dog, not just a guide dog.
Even for an animal lover like me it was scary to let myself depend on the dog, even for a few seconds. I don't know if I'm strong enough or trusting enough to do that every day. :)
NicoleLJ, thanks for some wonderful links! I really learned alot.
No problem. I have a ton more. For obvious reasons I am very passionate about Service Dogs.
Nicole
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
Dr Goodnow, you live in the outer portion of the universe...lol...Unfortunately most of us have to live in the inner portion. But I agree with the US. not having to dress their dogs in some states. Where we are from, we are asked to have proper ID and certification for our SD's. The reason things are getting so strict is because of impersonations of SD's. We don"t have to have a full vest in the heat of summer but the tag is mandatory in our city. I don't really know why the woman was pushing the issue of her service dog, maybe it was to grandstand. Most people fear pitts and Wal-mart would be responsible for any accident, but it seems the matter was settled without too much trouble. This is the whole point of ID and certification, no one can argue with you. Around here we have no access problems because of stricter laws I guess. I was just sent a link from a breeder about people being able to purchase service dog equipment on the internet, I wish I would have saved it.
How reputable is that of a company to offer something like this? I consider it totally innapropriate. You get your tag and vest from your training facility when you graduate. :)
Canada does not require certifaction or tags. Only a doctors note. If you look at my links you will see an official letter from a government official about it. And Service Dogs do not have to be from a facility they can be owner trained. Hence being able to purchase the equipment online. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Do your research please or provide proof to back up your claims. I did. I provided an official letter to back me up. Can you?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike001
Just in case you missed the letter the first time here it is agian:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oATZRYK...oBlankname.pdf
It is from the Accessability Directorate of Ontario.
Nicole
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
Nicole, you keep referring to me as someone you know. Could you stop developing paranoid ideas when I post. I have no idea who you are, and I don't do other forums except for service dog forums. as for Aces, I know who they are and where they originate.
Just so you don't make the same mistake twice, when I posted PTS that's what I meant...as in post traumatic stress. We were talking service dogs, not euthanization.
Could you refrain from the rudeness, it doesn't become the forum at all. No one put you in charge of correcting people so why do you do it, I'm here to learn also, so could you please ignore my posts if they offend you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyBogart
That sounds SO neat! I would absolutely love to have an experience like that.
I know who you are and you have said all these lies before. AS for ACES you only know what you make up. As for being pariniod I am not parinion when it comes to you since I know who you are and what you always do. You always say the same things, post the same falsehoods all to discredit people that you don't know. it is sad really. As for PTS it is called PTSD. Post Tramatic Stress Disorder. I should know. It is one of my disabilities. And PSD's are what the service dogs are called for people that have PTSD. Please research.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike001
And yet you still have not mentioned the corrections I made to your statements. The proof I provided when you have only post falsehoods with no proof. Why am I rude to you? because I am sick of the falsehoods you continually spread and post on many forums. That is why. Stop posting false statements and provide proof to your claims and then it can stop. But when you are posting info that is lies and false about a Non for profit(if you know it so well why did you say it was in Canada when it is in fact in the States) or (saying they make up their own laws when in fact they teach law enforcement and businesses about teh ADA, which I can back up). If you know the laws so well for Canada then explain the official letter I posted? Which goes aggianst all you have said. Provide proof. But then agian you never did on the other forums. You kept post falsehoods and never backed it up.
Nicole
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike001
It is not mandatory in ANY state to have to wear any form of ID.
If it is a town ordinance then that is easily overcome by the ADA act of 1990, in all portions of the USA. No Service animal is REQUIRED to wear one, it is however encouraged.
So the laws are the same in both the inner and outer portions of this USA universe.
Could you guys either take this to PM or ignore each other?
I usually ignore her. But the problem is when someone posts false info about a non for profit or about the laws then the public is being misinformed. And this can be a huge problem. That is why I have to post teh correct info with links of course so people can check it out themselves. I am sorry this is bothering other people but spreading false info about Service Dog laws and so forth can cause a lot of problems when it comes to access.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
Nicole
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
Dr. Goodnow---just to clarify, we don't have states, we have provinces and the US laws don't apply to us
Then please do not try to apply the ADA laws which are for the states to Canada, my sister lives in Alberta Calgary, and after a few calls around there , they are required to have only a Drs note, it is not required there either for the animal to have tags or other identification on the animal. As I know nothing about the Canadian laws, I will field all questions about that to Nicole who is rather learned about them and has much more accurate information pertaining to Canada, than I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike001
Borzoid ---Just to get off topic here, I've been wanting to ask you about your dogs. They are a hound breed so I figured with your experience you might be able to shed some light here.
My daughter is thinking of adopting a discarded Greyhound from a Greyhound rescue but we don't know much about them except that they love to be fawned upon and are great couch potatoes. True or False???? I told her she probably wouldn't be able to let it loose except in a fenced enclosure, but I'm not sure about that either. A friend who can help her get one was telling us this. I guess by now you've guessed my daughter wants to save a dog and wants a couch potatoe to fawn over. Any suggestions???? :)
Mike001, it would be more suitable if you questioned "borzoid" about their dogs in a thread about their dogs or in a PM.
Open a post in dog breeds- more than happy to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike001
Thanks so much. It has taken me a long time to learn what I have, and I still have a long way to go. But if I don't know the answer to any of your questions then I know I can find someone for you who does. This is an ever learning process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
Nicole
I heard that too all they have to have is a doctors note there. I am not versed on canadian laws in providences..Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
Nicole,Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
As I told you I can pretty much detail every single law.bill, court case and disposition here, but I am not anywhere capable of fielding Canadian laws. You are. I do not believe I have misinformed anyone and please correct me if I have. You have the research on those laws done, and I intend to pick your brain about them too! LOL
Hugs that baby for me and tell him Good Job!
Nope you haven't posted any misinformation about Canadian laws. And if you can pick my brain I will certianly pick yours too. lol. If I ever travel to teh States I want to make sure I am well versed in the American Service Dog laws. That is the only reason I know the the little bit of info I do about the ADA. Judi has always told me the more I know the better informed I am and the easier it will be for me to handle situations. So I try to learn as much as I can when I see the oportunities arise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
Nicole
I was just reading an article in the Tribunal I think it was. The reason for such a fuss being made at Wal-Mart about the pittie who was supposed to be a service dog, was because there were a lot of kids in the store at the time and the manager got worried. She apparently asked the woman for proof that her dog was a service dog and the woman refused and started a fuss, claiming her dog's "rights" The manager only wanted reassurance that the dog was indeed trained and safe, but the woman adamantly refused.
If someone asked me for proof I wouldn't hesitate showing it. But our dogs wear a red and black tag, so the proof would be there. I think there is always two sides to every story.
Sorry I didn't get any "links" or anything, but this was in the news that I get on the net. :)
:) Thank you & thats what I said too.. There is always two sides to a story.. See I wondered why the dog did not have a collar or jacket on stating this.. The Wal-Mart I go too there is a guy every Saturday in there with his dog with a labeled jacket.. Your right why didnt the woman just show proof?? Because she just wanted to make a scene & which it worked..
There is no legal reason to have to show any proof in the States. Service dog in the States do not have to wear any identifying vests, harnesses or tags. They do not have to be certified. And asking for proof is actually agianst the law. Legally there are only 3 questions a business can ask a service dog handler. Is that a Service Animal, Are you Disabled and What tasks is you Service Dog trained to do? Those are the only things they can ask. Since not all Service dogs wear gear and not all are certified asking for proof is not a legal requirement for Access.
In Canada the only proof that can be requested is a Dr.s note. Not certifacation or tags.
I was not there in Walmart so I do not know the whole story. I am only posting what can legally be asked. If you would like links to this I will gladly post them.
Nicole
Nobody is talking about "legal" anything. Everyone knows the three "legal" questions stores can ask, so please could we do without the links.
If the woman wasn't looking for trouble and her dog was in fact a SD then she could have shown proof as a matter of courtesy.
Sounds to me like she was on some kind of bandwagon to attract attention from what I read.
Our dogs have a black and red tag so it's evident to all that they are in fact service dogs.
I would never attract attention to myself the way this woman did, I would have pulled out my ID.
I always am interested in both sides of a story, the one sided ones always leave questions in my mind.
This story sounded fishy and I guess it was. My opinion.
I didn't know that they couldn't ask for proof.
I think they people should have to provide proof...
If stores don't ask for proof then I'll start bringing mine wherever I go...
Just kidding.
That is a valid point! seems like proof should be necessary, other wise everybody would claim to have a Service dog, just so they could come in the stores!Quote:
Originally Posted by beeniesmom
Since not all Service dogs are certified or have 'tags" then one reason she didn't provide any could have been because she didn't have any. So Saying she should have provided it out of courtousy is ludicrous. You have no idea if she even had any to begin with and since legally she doesn't have to have any it does not matter if they asked for it. They can't legally ask for it.
Nicole
What should be and what is are two totally different points. Personally I think all Service Dogs should be Vested or harnessed. Sheena and I never go out into a business without her vest on. This is not just so people can see she is working but also so kids can see the difference and so can businesses. But this is an opinion only. The law is that they don't have to be. So what is and what should be is two totally different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by critter crazy
Nicole
Also for those here who have not seen it this was all discussed in a very similar thread. All the legal points along with links to official info are in this thread:
http://www.petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=122240
Nicole