Flyball?? (rant)

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Zeke "bites" if when he plays, but what dog doesn't? He in no way hurt any dog. The guys are just nuts. They're way to perfect. Their dogs do AWESOME and they sit around after complaining how terrible they were...geez. I joined flyball for fun. I talked to other people who quit that club because it's too competitive and they just wanted to have fun. The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.

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first Happy doesnt bite when she plays, she doesnt playfight at all. and I am one of those super competitive folks thanks, and I know a lot of others personally. remeber there are 2 types of flyball people, and they have 2 types of DOGS. there are the pet people who get their pet dog in flyball just for fun, that would be you. then there are people like me who choose their dogs FOR flyball and they compete to win, our dogs have fun, and our dogs are allowed to just be dogs, but our dogs have an "I want to win" streak, dont get me wrong, these dogs and us handlers love the sport and we enjoy it just as much as the for fun people, but we play to win, both the handlers AND the dogs have the desire to win. know how many trainers said I should not do Flyball with Happy? every single one. every last one of them thought Happy would hate it and it would be to stressfull at that time I agree'd, Happpy diidnt seem to have any insterest in it, after a break from the sport she came to a parctice and when running against slow dog buddy of hers she got a taste of winning. and never looked back, now try telling her that she doesnt like flyball. no, what Happy hates is loosing, she has an extremly competitive streak, she loves to win, and she loves to show off doing it, she is like that is any sport, for example I was playing frisbee with her one day in a feild, when it was just me and her she did not even try, not once did she even bother to try catching it, then a person walking by the feild and paused to watch, suddenly Happy was leaping through the air, catching every single disc and doing funky flips while she was at it, when the guy left Happy stopped trying again...actually now that I descibe her she really is just like me lol I have a hard time competing with Misty though because she could not care less if she wins, its drives me batty lol

I was refering to the people in my own club. I don't know anyone else so I can't really say anything about it. To me, a dog should be allowed to play fight and be a dog...socialize with other dogs. I'm sure you do, but these people don't. They don't want any other dog to touch theirs. I personally feel bad for that because wild dogs play fight. I've seen TV shows were parents work their kids so hard that all they think about is training and nothing else. They say they like it, yes, but when given a break they admitted they didn't like to do it ALL the time, and they wanted to be kids. I'm not saying dogs are the same, but it's just my opinion. I'm not saying flyball is bad, don't do what you;re doing. It's just my opinion, like you had yours about the way I had Zeke in the club.

"pets" should be able to play too. I don't want to play to be competitive...I just want to have fun and enjoy my dog.

oh I know,I didnt just mean me, I meant out of all the people I personaly know who are very competitive, the dogs may be kept on a short leash and may appear uptight in practice and tourny situations, but that doesnt mean that dogs are not allowed to be dogs at home :)

there are clubs with just for fun teams for the people like you who are just in it for fun, though I am afraid you will have to go through a lot of false advertising to find the right one for you. there are a lot of clubs that SAY they are just for fun because they started that way, but they got bitten by the competitive bug and changed, yet still tell people they are "just for fun". hope you find a real just for fun club for you and Zeke :)

Reminds me of any spots that young kids play. The folks take it WAY to seriously & end up ruining all the fun :(

I know Zeke is a good boy, just a little too playful, but hes not a bad dog, hes doing what a young happy dog does, Play.

I wonder if you could train Zeke to act differently with a different kind of lead on.. like a harness. When he wears that, hes NOT to be sociable with other dogs.. but once its off, he can be all silly again.

I did that with my old dog. When his harness was on, he was working & had to ignore all people & all dogs.... when his halti was on, he could play & be silly.

It might help :D
If not, just remember Zeke is a wonderful fella no matter what those snobs say :D

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The dogs Zeke went up to just weren't interested in playing. I kinda wonder if these people let their dogs play at all. I highly doubt it. I think "play" to them is running in their yard after a ball...which is good I guess, but dogs need to be dogs and that includes play fighting.

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I've never stopped my dogs from playing with others when they were pups. They made their own minds up when they got a bit older that they didn't want to play with other dogs. Just because a dog doesn't want to play with other dogs doesn't mean it's owner never allowed it to play.
Having Border collies, they are an obsessive breed who are bred to work, not go up to other dogs to play. Their job is the most important thing in their life and if they do flyball, then flyball is the most important thing in their life. They simply aren't interested in play fighting, they have better things to do and some of them can get quite narky if other playful dogs run up to them and jump on them and bite them in play.
My dogs would go completely nuts if another dog ran up to them and started biting them, even if it only meant to play.

Think about it, would a shepherd want a working dog who only wanted to go playfighting with other dogs? No, he wouldn't, he wants a dog that is dedicated to it's job and that is how Border collies have been bred and they are famous for this attribute. I know that not only Border Collies might show this tendancy.

Like humans, dogs have very varied personalities and this is the case no matter what type of training they get etc...
Not all dogs want to playfight. In fact, many older dogs don't want to playfight. It's more common for young dogs, pups and those not much more than pups, to want to run up and have playfights.
Many dogs might playfight with other dogs that they live with but not want to do it with strange dogs...which is, again, understandable.

Saying all of this, I agree that the club made a lot of mistakes and handled things in an inappropriate way etc...
I also agree that this club is probably not the right place for you if they are too competitive whilst you just want some relaxing fun. The club I went to was more about having fun than being all competitive.

I just wanted to clarify that you are mistaken in thinking those dogs don't want to play simply because their owners never allowed them to and that ALL dogs need to playfight when they don't.

You are absoutuely right, Canis. I actually find the dogs that are the happiest I've ever known are the agility dogs owned by highly competitive trainers. These dogs are doing what they LIVE for. My agility sheltie would like nothing better than to run an agiity course in competition. He LOVES it. Playing with other dogs - he can take it or leave it.

People who make statements along the lines that competitive dogs aren't allowed to be dogs just don't understand competition dogs or how to train one. When not working, my dogs are like anyone elses. In fact, my dogs get more privledges than most other dogs. They're indoors, allowed in any room, allowed on any piece of sittable furniture, allowed moments of extremely high energy (play) without disruption even in the house, allowed to bark their heads off at people walking by the house, allowed to bark their heads off if someone comes to the door, etc. When not under a command, my dogs get to live the high life. Under command, they are expected to behave. I just don't give commands that often during daily life. The main time they are under command is on the agility field, and then, they WANT to be there. They would rather be on an agility course with me than anywhere else in the world.

People tend to put too much of their human feelings onto their dogs. Because a person doesn't want to work doesn't mean a dog doesn't, too. Most working dogs not only want to work, the NEED to work, and if you don't give them a job, they become destructive.

I think it's not only unfair - but even mean - to label people who are competitive in any canine sport as being "cruel" to their dogs. Believe me, there are not better treated dogs in the world. Nor are there any happier dogs in the world than ones owned by the truly competitive in the dog world. Why? Because these people know their dogs and how to make them happy in ways others wouldn't understand.

That being said, let's define "truly competitive." I'm not talking about someone who WANTS to be competitive, but someone who is. In other words someone with the titles, knowledge, experience level to truly be competitive in their sport. These are the ones who often win, and win big. There are a lot of other folks who think they're competitive or who wish they were competitive. Some of these lack knowledge to train their dogs properly, and you do see dogs being over handled in the owner's misguided attempt to become one of the competitive trainers. However, the competitive trainers' dogs wouldn't be competitive if trained harshly. That's precisely why they ARE competitive in the first place! The dog loves what it does because the owner has made the sport fun. Thus, then come the ribbons and titles.

The truly competitive have made their sport a game for the dog. The best game in the world. You can't do this by over-handling your dog and not allowing them to be dogs. You can't force train speed. That only comes when the dog loves what it's doing.

This discussion should have been carried over to another thread as these responses have absolutely nothing to do with the original post or poster. Guess it's too late to change now as this has evolved into an extremely informative thread. :)

Great posts canis-lupess and agilityk9trainer!!!!!!!!!

One of the first things I learned many years ago is; "you have to think like a dog to train a dog".

Not even the best trainers or behaviorists can teach a dog to "fake it" if they aren't truly happy in what they're doing.

As far as dogs and play fighting; it's normal and natural with dogs that are thoroughly familiar with each other. However in the canine world it's extremely dangerous to expect any dog to know a strange dog is "only playing" when they come tearing at them full force, and immediatly begin roughhousing ad "play biting".

Just as in the human world there are right ways and wrong ways for dogs to become acquainted. It's vital that young dogs learn the basic social skills for their own protection as well as that of other dogs they might encounter.

What if the dog loved to play with children? Is there ever a time that it would be acceptable for any dog to run up to a strange child and begin "play biting"?

All good points, Applesmom.

Yes, this thread has certainly changes, as threads have a tendancy to do. :)

Sorry!!

I'm glad my thread was hijacked and no one listened when I asked not to go off-topic. :)

When I said that about dogs not be allowed to play with others, I was ONLY talking about the people AT MY CLUB as I KNOW they don't let their dogs play with other dogs. They have told me. They are very stuck up with their dogs. I don't think they even like other people touching their dogs.

I'm sorry if you thought I ment every competitor does this. I believe I said it 2 times that I only am talking about my club, which I know about. I supose I see their point. If they wre to play with an aggressive dog, it might ruin their sports future....I stopped reading posts here as I know it's likely to upset me.

Man you guys don't listen to a word I say.

It is a great idea. It's exactly how service dogs are handled. They are all business when in vest/harness but in a normal collar/harness they are off duty.

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Originally Posted by slleipnir

Man you guys don't listen to a word I say.

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Sadly, it happens a lot on PT.