Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole
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Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole
AMEN!!! WELL PUT!Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
Wow this is really exciting! I haven't been reading these discussions for very long and haven't posted very much, I mostly just read. I could tell that you know a lot about dogs but didn't know that you are a judge borzoimom. I'm hoping to get into showing too as soon as I get my German Shepherd pup and it is old enough. I have been going to dog shows with my aunt since I was a little kid, she has shepherds and Cairn Terriers. I wonder if you've ever judged her dogs and we might have met, her name is Bonnie. Maybe we will get to meet at one of the shows and you will get to judge my puppy when she grows up. That would be cool!Quote:
Originally Posted by borzoimom
I haven't failed to see that, my point is that White's were never a part of the GSD, they never were accepted, except here in america(funny how we have to split a breed everytime it comes to america but that's another story). Every white breeder claims it has its root's in the German SHepherd a dog known for its courage, it's nerve, its strength, its adaptability, etc. White's were never a part of that history. SO call it like it is, you have the cast offs of a noble breed used to create a white american shepherd. SO yo usee when you are making claims that white's are the same as gsd's just different colors, the rules created by the founder most defineatly have something to do with this, seeing as they've been selected against in the entire world since their beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
If you're going to claim they work just as well and are the same as a GSD, and I see ZERO working titles with any of your dogs, your darn right it's part of the discussion. Just as with anyone breeding any working dog claiming they can work and have this and have that, and yet have never proven their dogs can do any of it. Really big pet peeve of mine. This isn't about white vs others, its about unsubstantiated claims made by breeders, it would be no different looking at an AKC show line website and seeing all these champions that have never had the courage, or nerve tested by anyone.Quote:
My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.
Jackfrost- just because its not an accepted color in our standard, doesnt mean they dont exist. Even in Belgiums you can get both the Terv color and the Belgium color as well. They divided the dog because of color, and not the first to do so. Also a Norfolk and a Norwich can have either in their litters to as well. My point is- color can seperate any breed, and our acceptance in the AKC doesnt make all breeds. Plenty of dogs similar in color but not accepted here yet. Like the Irish Setter in our country is only red- they can be red and white in other countries. The newly coming red and white setter will be named just that eventhough it is stilll a Irish Setter. Just because we don't honor a breed color, doesnt remove the legitamacy.
Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.
I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad....I have heard things about how WGSD's come from a smaller gene pool, but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics. I am an equine emphasis major, and I know that the same thing applies to horses...its nature, Is the american cream draft any less of a horse because it is a different color? no, and they are beautiful horses....but I bet you that somewhere along the line they came from a recessive gene. As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs. And right now I personally think that colored GSDs have alot of problems from irresponsible breeding.
Anyway, I have a shepherd husky mix pup who I love dearly (he's actually my fathers dog at this point.) and we adopted him. I am getting ready to start looking for a WGSD puppy (female) so that next year when I have an apartment I can have her and raise her. (I have heard they are smart as whips with alot of drive, and I love that since I am highly active and a trainer - in - training.) I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for breeders on the east coast....Chapparall in ohio and white timberwolf ranch in florida seemed to be the two most likley as of now...but I would looove input on this.
I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....during the winters he kinda hung around a resteraunt and played with the customers...he was very sweet.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf...%20Dog%201.jpg
and here is the swiss website about these dogs (in german but lots of good pics.)
http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.ch/
Thanks all
Maybe my comment was a little harsh, I don't think any dog is useless. I do however think there is a huge difference between a working GSD and your average dog.Quote:
Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.
Color doesn't make them badQuote:
I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad
and simple genetics and observation would tell you that after about 30 years of breeding gsd's White's no longer showed up in the litters. This would show that the recessive gene was very rare in the GSD population at that time. Your odds of getting two recessive parents together was very rare, and by responsible breeders studying bloodlines and pedigrees would have a pretty good guess as how to avoid breeding to those dogs because white was not desired. Since that time, you've had a small gene pool being used for at least the past 70 years.Quote:
but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics.
If you're studying genetics you might want to go over hybrid vigor again, this has nothing to do with it. But if you wanted to add some "new" blood, no responsible breeder of GSD's is going to allow their brood bitch or proven stud to breed with a white coat. So chances are you're going to be adding more unproven bloodlines.Quote:
As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs.
There are big problems with the GSD especially in america. Their showlines go back to basically two dogs brought over from Germany, but somehow I"m supposed to believe White's have a large gene pool?? They had to get those white's consistently somehow, How do you think that happened? you're into genetics, think about it.
I'm sure there are some that can work, but it's not very often. It's a consistency thing, and I still love when white breeder's claim they can do everything a "regular" GSD can do, yet have no cert's or titles to show, other than CGC, TT, TDI, etc, sorry, those are fun to do, but are a far cry from being proven as working stock.Quote:
I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....
...Quote:
Originally Posted by borzoimom
quite frankly I think that any dog can do anything else a dog could do. It drives me insane that people think that one kind of dog is better than others. A rescue dog given the right training and drive and breed type can do just as well as another dog....sometimes they cant, sometimes they can.
As far as the animals not throwing white animals for 30 years, I find that very hard to believe....and if it was the case I am willing to guess they probably didnt breed the animals throwing whites as much, thus further causing the gene to recess.
I will put down one more example from equine science that might have some part to do with this (I use horses because I know them better, and because I think fundamentally here the animals are similiar)
The American Quarter Horse Association allows only animals of solid color to be registered. They cast out the paints and the appy's even though they mat have been structurally sound...they were culled from the breeding herds. They broke off and formed their own associations (American Paint Horse Association and the FAHR). Today even when a paint or appaloosa is thrown from and QH stud and mare (it happens, though rarely), they are still not allowed to register but can register in the APHA. They are basically the same horse with different colors. Paints excell easly as well as Quarter horses, and today, the foundation breed of quarter horses have far more confirmation problems then their colored friends. Paints came from a generally smaller gene pool, but you wont find a smart QH breeder saying that paints couldnt do all the same things as a QH.
My point I suppose is not to be close minded....I love colored and White dogs all the same....I myself am going white because from everything I have read, and the breeders I have talked to (to include colored breeders) well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain.
Ceph- the Russians killed borzois for years that were not mostly white. They wanted a dog that would blend in the snow. The US did the most to bring the self colors back from oblivian..
Jackfrost - My breeding program is just that, Mine. My purpose for breeding is not to produce titled dogs, though that would be great if the owners decided to do that(I will even be giving rebates to those that do title their dogs in certian venues). My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose. So I could care less whether you have a problem with that or not. Sheena and Ryder are both proven dogs in all aspects for what I hope to produce and that is what matters to me.
Ceph - Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.
Sorry I haven't contributed more but I have had a busy night and day with Sheena flying to meet Ryder to hopefully produce my first litter. Which we are hoping will have 3 service dog candidates in it. So keep your fingers crossed.
Nicole
Honey- you have your hands full right now. Some people just like to start something and as someone said to me " thrive on discontent.."
FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds. Apparently, they're becoming known for having better temperaments and lasting longer health-wise than GSDs. A lot of this is no doubt due to issues in "American" GSD lines, but I found it somewhat interesting. Nicole's dogs appear to be healthy and stable and beautiful and will no doubt produce exemplary service dogs. I think that deserves at least as much respesct as excelling in herding.
Don't mean to hijack, but this thread has me wondering--- is the black GSD registerable? Didn't see it specifically faulted in the AKC guidleines like the whites and some of the dilutes... but for some reason I was thinking it wasn't anyway?
If anything i have said is untrue, i'll be the first to admit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by borzoimom
More drivey and more brains than my working dogs??? OK sweety, I can see i'm hurting you and your friend's feelings and you feel a need to try and get back at me. Anyone with any experience at all with working GSD's knows that is nothing but a bold faced lie. But just to let you have your time in the sun, let's say they are. But I have experience with service dogs for the disabled as well, and you know the funny thing is, they are almost exclusively looking for lower drive dogs. you must be working with an anomoly. and back to your comment again, if they're so intelligent and have so much drive, PROVE IT, don't just say it. I go to lots of trials, and see very very very few whites doing anything, let alone winning. If you indeed have a dog with more drive and more brains than a GSD, than surely it will be at the top of the podium, winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometime, but I know what this will get, more lip service, as I can tell you that in the past 50 years there has been a handful at best to even compete in these trials let alone do well. and that my dear is a fact.Quote:
I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.
Thank you so much. If your dad ever wants me to put him in touch with some great WS breeders (some who have produced dogs that have gone on to do police work) please let me know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophist
As for blacks yes they can be registered, so can whites, and tehy can be shown through AKC and the CKC. But from what breeders have told me a black can have a harder time winning in the ring. I am not saying they can't, it is just harder. They told me it was because the black coat not only highlights the good parts but also the bad. It doesn't have any other colors to break up what the eye sees. Do I make sense?
Nicole
[QUOTE=jackfrost]winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometimeQUOTE]
This alone shows me you have no clue what you are talking about. LOL PSD trials. That is so funny. There is no such thing as a Psychiatric Service Dog trial. lol.
Nicole
Yes, you make sense. Thanks for the info.
JackFrost, don't you think the lack of the white shepherds in these trails could just as easily be due their human counterparts' prejudice against them as it is due to any supposed defects in the dogs?
[QUOTE=NicoleLJ]wow, you now so much about working dogs, yet you've never heard of a PSD, Police Service Dog...HMMMMMQuote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
They dont call them PSD here either... We call them agents. ( worked in customs as a private trainer... ) It is possible she doesnt know. Each area can be different...
[QUOTE=jackfrost]PSD to me(since I am in service dogs) means Psychiatric service dogs) Service dogs for the disable is what I was talking about when it comes to my breeding program. Why would I need or want to get police dog titles on my breeding dogs when I am breeding for service dogs? Agian you make no sense. Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
Nicole
I dont know too much before, like I said, but I am in the military, and the kinds of service dogs the military are looking for have to be high drive....you need an animal who not only enjoys the searching but also wont give up. I am medical service corps....dogs that have a high drive and are willing to look for people for as long as possible save lives. I am hoping to train my puppy for rescue missions along that line...I think the military could sorely use a search and rescue dog with each ambulance platoon. but again, high drive = very important...
And on a second note....for christ sakes...they're all the same...the same internal workings, the same structure...some dogs will always be more high drive than others...some will be more lazy...you will see that in both WGSD and GSD. One of my Captains worked with and bred german shepherds, and his direct quote was, 'I've worked with everything but a pure black, and its pretty much ding, they're all the same.' so you can breed high drive and temperment into pretty much any animal...alot of that is dependant on the breeder....it just so happens that most of the people I know who I have mentioned the high drive/intelligence....it may just be that they are all doing something right.
Pretty much this comes down to truth and fact, we all have our own truths - what we believe is real, and then there is the fact....what we know is real....our truth is that the WGSD is awsome, yours is that it is not so much....the actual facts....we dont know for sure because there has never been any hard data or testing in a controlled situation. I actually looked for something in the Virginia Tech Journal Database...the entire database...and I could find nothing. Until there is resaearch done like that, they are all the same I guess. (mmm, that might be a good graduate thesis paper though)
Exactly, trust me Ifeel your pain. You keep claiming they have more drive and more brains, and I said surely they'll be winning in avenues that test drive and brains, as well as temperment and nerve, but you like to skirt that every time it comes up, so we'll just leave it as that, your dogs have never been proven to work. PSD's has meant police service dog forever. In working circles you say PSD, and that's exactly what it means, my gosh do a simple google search and tell me what you get Psychiatric Service dog or Police service dog???Quote:
Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
It could, but surely if they were producing such drive and temperment and structure and brains, we'd see them much more often in working circles. When good ones come along, they're notpassed over because they are white. We scoop them up as fast as we can. Fact of the matter is, there aren't very many. Mainly what you see is lots of talk and not much show.Quote:
JackFrost, don't you think the lack of the white shepherds in these trails could just as easily be due their human counterparts' prejudice against them as it is due to any supposed defects in the dogs?
You could PM me as well, I may know him, but I can't say we get any requests for whites, Belgians yeah because they're cheaper, but not whites. I'd like to know what LEO's are looking for that? Besides the fact that they like the color white.Quote:
FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds.
I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.
and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.
yes- you are right! It is a recessive gene..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceph
now just think about that, it IS a recessive and a recessive that was selected AGAINST till almost no whites where showing up in normal litters. So to create whites consitently, which is what white breeders do, do you think they took your average working GSD and got some whites by accident and sell them that way, or do you think they took the ever shrinking pool of GSD's with white genes left and did lots of breeding back on themselves to consistently get white??Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceph
actually I got a white out of a sable and black and tan breeding..
Which is quite common.Quote:
Originally Posted by borzoimom
Nicole
yea it shocked me thats for sure... lol..
again, back to horses.....but I have seen friesians (pure black dominant gene) mated to other Black horses throw palamino babies (golden body, cream hair)....hec, I even saw a chesnut friesian, which is said to be impossible genetically....dont ever discount mother nature...she always has the neatest tricks up her sleeve. In horses chesnuts are the most recessive of the colors...but all I ever see in my program here are chesnuts. neither of our stallions are chesnuts....not too many of our mares are chesnuts...they must be coming from somewhere....
and its very possible the same happened with WGSDs...not saying it did....its just possible....you can typically figure out the parents genetics by the time they've had their second get....so it wouldn't be too hard to breed colored dogs to whelp whites even if it was just two or three a litter...not hard at all. Thus your genetic base starts to expand as far as the whites go.
My borzoi breeder had Black pearl too.. same thing...
Whites may not have showed up, but that was only by certain luck -- a white carrier will breed a carrier who will breed a carrier and then another carrier to breed another carrier, and so on. So there have always been carriers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
Same reason I don't know if Visa carries tervuren. It's unlikely, but still possible. Won't know until I breed her to a terv, or a terv carrier (Solo's daddy is a terv carrier -- wouldn't have have been just awful is he was the only one AND a terv! I so badly wanted a groen lol).
I got two tervs out of my belguim.. took me forever to get them right..
Actually, my dad does not prefer the color white. When he is taking color into consideration, he tends to prefer darker dogs as K-9 units, since they tend to intimidate suspects more and since people can't pick them out as easily if they're trying to go in during darkness and all... but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
My father has mainly selected dogs for several Sheriff's offices (which also work in the local academy), search and rescue, the county jail, a couple special "school k-9 units" that work the public schools only, and Methamphetamine Enforcement Teams.
Oh, forgot to add...
I very, very, very rarely give out my surname online, so I don't think I'll be PM'ing you my dads name to see if you know him. How about you just send me the names of all the cops you know in Cali and I'll tell you if you know him ;) :D .
Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophist
Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/
http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm
One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole
Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleLJ
I have seen some whites do some good work, just the majority of them do not pass. Its not the situation I created, its just how it is. When someone is telling me a LEO is searching for white's cause they do better work??? I wonder just where that person is coming from. Its far easier to find a GSD or mal than any of the others, and mal's are much cheaper. Nobody wants to believe me, so I sent you some links where other people that import, train, and breed working dogs, see what they have to say on that issue, then come back and tell me I'm lying.
Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.
I've done far more than read a few breeder websites to form my "opinion".
I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.
You keep saying that the gene pool is large, it is not.
YOu keep saying they have more brains and drive, yet can only show me two websites with the same dogs on them over the past 20 or 30 years and only a handful of dogs are there. Why, because that's all that have accomplished much. I've been there and see what happens.
You keep saying they have better working temperments yet they aren't overwhelming any working venue, or even represented very often?? Most people with working dogs could care less what color they are, they go to what dogs can work. You keep saying they have more drive, yet you raise Psychiatric Service Dogs? Where does high drive come in to play with that? Are you telling me that those services look for dogs with a good balance of high prey and high defense drive?? Funny cause every service dog outfit i've ever placed dogs in were all looking for lower drive dogs, EVERY ONE. When I see lip service being paid to something the finest breed in the world does, i get offended.
You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.
Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-
I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
I have only ever seen belgians more expensive...not hard when you can get a shepherd for free from some backyard breeder though...Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
Jackfrost, I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
We put some stuff out too. It didnt seem to change your mind some.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
Jack - you came onto a thread that was positive and started an argument and put down and insulted several people. The way my daddy raised me that was called insulting. I will cede that you have your own opinion, and that it may possibly be true...but dont try to force it on us. You arent going to change our minds by insulting us, just as we wont change yours by arguing....why dont we just leave it at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackfrost
If it makes a difference, the Virginia Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (a top Veterinary College) is right near by. I can walk down there and ask some geneticists and Veterinarians about that. Would any of that help, or even change your mind? Thats true hard data.
and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.
(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.