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Candy, is there any way you could manage to be there at the same time as this so-called "expert"?:confused: Maybe you could tell the people it would help if you were there to answer any "background" questions the "expert" might have. That way you could both check out the situation and if expert is any good at all he could possibly be on your side about taking Cooper back with you.... just a thought :( Laurie
Candy,
I was afraid of this.:(
From these people's evasive answers previously.
I don't believe them at all about hiring an
independent trainer to work with the dog. Pure
B.S.:mad:
P.S. What does it matter if someone is the "fastest trainer"? More B.S. I would not believe
a word they are telling you, but would insist on
adherence to the original contract they signed.
8. If at anytime the SELLER feels the terms of this contract is not being fulfilled and the health and well being of the Golden are in question, action will be taken to remove the Golden from the situation.
They came to class but it was apparent that they did not practice from week to week and eventually they did not finish the first class or basic obedience. My contract states that they are to take 1 puppy kindergarten class and 2 series of basic classes.
You do feel that the health and well being of Cooper are in question. According to your contract, you can remove him from the home. You should insist on evaluating the situation yourself!
They also violated your contract by not taking the pup to obedience classes. This clause is a bit vague and can be a cause of debate if there is no time limit set for that regulation.
Here is why I feel my hands are tied.....
The person I am dealing with is a lawyer. Both him and his wife practice out of a very affluent firm. Even though they signed the contract, I am sure they will make me go to court to prove neglegence and I am not financially able to incurr that kind of expense. I know this sounds lame but I don't know how to enforce the contract at this point.
Can someone with more law knowledge than me, please shed some light on something I can do?
I'm sure even if I do go to court, they will make mince meat out of me. :mad:
I have asked to have the dog evaluated when I was present. I was told that it will be on Thursday the sixteenth in Williamsport (4 hours from me). I can not take off from work that day because there are only two people from a systems side that support the mainframe. My co-worker is out of the office that entire week on vacation. Normally I can take off with little problems as long as one of us is available for support.
They have agreed (so far) to let me know what the evaluator says and to evaluate the dog for myself after the other guy does. I feel this is just a ploy though. Basically, the dog is not even in their home right now. He is with a relative supposedly for a little vacation while they get adjusted to having a new baby around. The baby is only a couple weeks old at this point. What Bull!
This may be one battle that cannot be fought with confrontation or allegations or trying to enforce the contract. Do everything you can to make them aware you are available to help them and work with them and provide the fall-back plan of a place for the dog should their other ideas not work out. I agree with Liz that they are giving you a lot of B.S., but I also think your evalutation about just how far you would get in a standoff with them is correct. Unless they want to cooperate with you, they won't. The challenge is to make them want to. I know that might not be possible, but it is an option to consider.
dixie,
i hate to be the __ (looking for the right word), but please remember to keep in contact with the humane societies/shelters in the area... these ppl seem sneaky--wouldn't put it pass them.
{{hugs}}
Candy,
I believe this to be only a matter of "Contract Law", and
could be settled in small claims court.Small claims(anything
under $2000 ) is handled by this court.No attorney is needed
in this court. I personally would feel better talking to a good
"Contracts" attorney before filing a case in court. They would
need to read the wording in the actual contract. Contract law
is pretty "cut & dried". The Judge would decide whether they
fufilled their end of the contract. It's not up to you to prove
anything. You should however get supporting letters from
the school that the dog attended stateing the class was not
completed. Also the biting & stitches incident should be
verified for the Judge. Don't be too intimidated by the fact
that they are lawyers. "There are lawyers& then there are
Lawyers". They might not know "diddley about"contract law"
My daughter is a very knowledgeable attorney. If you want,
you can e-mail me a copy of the original contract & I will forward
it to her to read & offer advice. All The Best, Liz.
WOW! That would be wonderful. Thanks a lot! :D
Maybe Liz's daughter will be able to give you some advice.
I do not understand why the owners are being so ugly and misleading. Obviously they do not care enought about the dog if he is too skinny and seems to be aggressive. So, Cooper is staying at a relative's home while they adjust to the new baby? Adjusting to a baby takes alot more time than adjusting to the weather change? So instead of him staying with the relative, why couldn't he have stayed with you so that you can work with him? Do you think they are going to have time to meet with the trainer if they are so busy with the baby?
Why won't they just let him go! Why do they care now all of a sudden?
I wish I knew! :(Quote:
Originally posted by DoggiesAreTheBest
Why won't they just let him go! Why do they care now all of a sudden?
He did say last night when I talked to him that Cooper is no longer skinny. He said they have increased his food and he is at a good weight of about 73 pounds. Dusty is 75 so if he is telling the truth then he is around where he should be. I haven't seen him since Dixie's birthday party and he was VERY skinny then. One way or another, I will be telling them I want to see him.
I am wondering if they have given him to the brother in law permanently and this is just a smoke screen so I won't know. I did tell them after I worked with him, I would try to rehome him in a environment where the people have had experience training dogs in the past so they could make sure he was counter conditioned for his aggressive behavior! :confused: Perhaps they understand he will not be having ANY contact with them.
An update!
Liz contacted her daughter (I believe she is a contract lawyer) and forwarded her a copy of the contract that Cooper's owners signed. She said it is an enforcable contract. I will be contacting the State bar association to get a referral and a consultation to see where I can legally go with this.
I will do everything possible to get Cooper back and find him a new home!
Dixie, good for you, I'm glad you got this information. It sounds to me like they have given Cooper to the brother-in-law, no doubt about it.
I think they were to busy with their corporate lives to bother with Cooper and thought he could take care of himself, or left him to the kids to take care of. I think they felt they were living the perfect life with the house, the kids and the perfect dog only it didn't turn out that way. I do believe the answer is to get Cooper back and see what the problem is and the longer it goes on the worse for Cooper it will get. For goodness sake who knows what they are feeding him for one thing, how did he gain all that weight so quickly. Well, I for one will breathe a sigh of relief when you get him back.
Dixie you are the best.
Jackie
I know this is going to sound bad,but I think if they are in a very good firm maybe making it uncomfortable for them at work can go a long way. Lawyers need to have their reputations especially in large firms . They are told to deal with personal problems and not let them come to the office. I think I would let them know you will make life uncomfortable if they don't compliy with the contract they signed. I also would put exact times and dates in a regestered letter so they can't say we did't receive any thing . I'd send it to their work that way who ever opens the mail knows too. I also would have all the other puppy owners make statements as to the condtion at the party. If you have pictures of all the dogs at the party get them to geather. I had this problem with a horse not a dog . I avodied court by all the above actions, The guy was worse he was a judge in our county.
Good luck Hope you can get good help from others.
Maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. They made a big step by getting a trainer. I commend them for that. They probably don't think they are wasting time. There might be a chance of fixing the problem. I'm sure the trainer will tell them to spend more time with their dog. This seems like it *could* be a good solution. If it doesn't work, then you could always take him back.Quote:
Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
The guy said that Cooper is a big part of their life and they owe it to him to try to work it out. How much more time are they going to waste? :mad:
I just think we all have too little details without seeing the situation firsthand. Try not to worry Candy, this could just be blown out of proportion. On the other hand, it might not be so its good that you're prepared to act.
Candy:
I do hope there is a legal solution to this problem. Those people don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. They had you running around in circles for too long. :mad: In the mean time, it's poor baby Cooper who has to adjust to new situations. Who knows by now if anything they have told you is the true. They may be counting on the fact that you will not drive four hours (of course they don't know you) to meet with the trainer, if there is a trainer in the picture.
Good luck in your search for a good lawyer.
Whew! I just had a marathon reading session getting caught up from the beginning of this thread....
What a horrible situation, Candy. It seems to me that this couple is being difficult just to spite you, that they know they're in violation of the contract, and that they are lying up a storm as well. Why do people go out of their way to get marvelous dogs and then neglect them, mistreat them, and generally make the dogs miserable?
And honestly, if the PARENTS are behaving this way, guess how their CHILDREN will be in another few years! :mad: Idiots. They know they have no one to blame but themselves for this problem with Cooper, and they just don't want to face the music and do what's right. (The right thing would also be for the entire family to go through training, not just Cooper--this is hardly the dog's fault!) Instead, now they're scrambling for help, backpedalling on answers, and acting like they care. Right. Too little too damn late.
I hope your meeting with the state bar people goes well today, Candy, because you definitely need to act on this. I know you won't rest until you're at peace with Cooper having the home he deserves.
I've lost track. Was the meeting yesterday? Any hope/new status?
The meeting with the trainer is on the 16th. It is a Thursday and will take place about 4 hours from where I live. Unfortunately my co-worker is on vacation this coming week and I am not able to take off. If I was, I would go too! Since there is only two in our department, the boss said no when I asked him if I could take Thursday off also.
I am going to demand that the dog be brought back to the original owners house so I can go see him on the 18th. We will see. :(
I still have not been contacted by the Contract Lawyers office. I will follow up with that on Monday.
Candy, like Kobieeli I just now caught up with this thread. First of all, let me commend you for calling to check on Copper! That right there shows that you are a breeder who cares about her pups. I doubt that many breeders do that. I have gotten all 5 of my dogs from breeders and only had one follow-up letter. The breeder was being forced out of her home (had been renting and the house was being sold and was going into an apartment.) She had asked me if I could take Whitney's brother because she knew Whitney was in a good home. Unfortunately I couldn't at the time. :( Anyway, I say all of that only to point out that you are obviously a very caring, concerned breeder (not that anyone on this board needs reassuring!!!)
Secondly the tales this family are spinning are amazing. When I read that their new trainer is in the Guinness Book I almost laughed out loud! Come on! Get real! It sounds to me like the dog has probably been given to the brother-in-law or at least plans are being made along those lines. Just too much is not ringing true here.
Thirdly, I agree with everyone that your contract sounds like your best chance of getting Copper back. The wording in it couldn't be clearer. I do hope that you can work through this legally and be victorious!
Candy, I know how much you love Dixie, Dusty and all of these pups. You must be heartbroken just thinking of the possible damage that has been done in his development. Hopefully things will wrap up quickly and you can get him back and start to repair this damage. The fact that he was in a crate in the basement makes my blood boil!! :mad: :mad: I will be thinking of you on Thursday and anxiously waiting for your update. Prayers are going up that you will be successful in getting Copper back.
Any news yet Candy? I know yesterday was the meeting between Copper's current owners and the trainer. Did they give you any feedback? Will you get to see him tomorrow? You're in my thoughts!
Candy, you have my sympathy and please know that I really feel for you at the moment - this must be incredibly difficult for you.
From what has been said I find it hard to believe you will see any aggressive behaviour from Cooper. The two incidents seem to be food related and with one person and I think that a person trainer not a dog trainer is what is needed.
I think it is unrealistic for two intelligent people to imagine they will have the time or energy to sort out what they see as problems with the dog. The very fact that they have gone to a man famed for his quickness at training dogs shows that they are not ready to commit for a long haul with this dog. They need to understand why the incidents happened, that alone will take time and energy and then they can start to understand how to make sure it never happens again.
They do not sound like bad people to me - just ignorant of the time and energy needed to ensure that a dog is happy and healthy and even less aware of what can happen when a dog is not cared for ALL the time the way it deserves to be cared for.
I would think about offering them visits to see Cooper at your house before you go with the law and mention that they should of consulted you before passing the dog on to a third party.
As I said, I would not be at all surprised if no aggressive behaviour is seen but Golden's are as likely to be aggressive as any other dog - in fact it is the breed that most often tops the biting scale in this country. That is mainly because it is a popular breed of dog but it also shows that the are capable of aggression.
A genetic defect is also a possibility. Because the rest of the litter have not shown any aggression does not make it impossible - it may be a new mutation or a recessive trait or the first sign that the line is "overbred" leading to weak nerves.
I have certainly come across aggressive goldens many times - nine times out of ten it is owner error - and I am sure that it is with Cooper.
I am very keen to know how you get on and wish with all my heart that you can persuade them that they are not the right people and it is not the right time in their lives for Cooper.
Good luck, Candy, I am sure that Cooper needs only confident handling and some understanding and there will be no more problems.
It's the 18th...any news on the Cooper situation??? I really hate stupid people and I think these people qualify!! I've been wondering what's been happening. Good luck and I hope to hear from you soon!
I have not heard from these people on how the consultation with the super wiz dog trainer went. :mad: I have left several phone messages and am not getting any replies back. :mad: :mad:
At this point, I am so totally confused about what I should do. I want to get Cooper back and I made an appointment for the 28th to speak to a Contract lawyer about it. I don't want to tip my hand too soon so they are aware of my intentions. I already am clueless to where he is since they have given him to the relatives. :eek:
I wish I had better news to report. :(
Dixie, I know how you feel about those dogs, they are your life like Daisy and Perry are mine and I just am sick over this for you. I think you are right not to tip your hand right away. I think it's best to talk to the contract lawyer before you do anything else. See what they have to say first. I'm sure they will advise you on the right path to take. I'm sorry you have to go through this as I know how worried you are about Cooper, we will all pray that it turns out that you get him back soon.
Jackie
This sounds ominously like the Tobey situation. I think you can probably take them to small claims court too, but I would talk to a lawyer first. Generally speaking the animal makes a surprising reappearance then the law gets involved. You may want to contact the local police to see if there are any possible answers there. Good luck.
Candy,
I too am so sorry that this had to happen this
way. If only some people looked at their pets
as family and not trophies it would help.:(
Try not to worry about Cooper's wereabouts; an
attorney if authorized by you, can make these
people produce the (property) dog.Sorry to word
it that way, but the laws do consider them as
property. After you have had a chance to meet
with your state's lawyer & consider your options
then you'll know better what to expect.Again, I'm
so sorry this has happened. I can only guess how
much emotional turmoil you are going through.
Best Of Luck, Liz & Buddy.
Candy,
Just checking in to wish you All The Best in
your appointment today.Hopefully this attorney
can give you some piece of mind & let you know
what your options are under Pennsylvania law.
A contract is a contract in any state, but the
steps used to ensure compliance might be different. Best of Luck & Godspeed. Liz & Buddy.
Yes! Best of luck! Please keep us in touch when you can.
Good luck today, Candy! I'm so sorry you had to go this route. Most of all we're rooting for the sweet, innocent little pup. Love to you from Sandra, Cody and Star
The lawyer said I do have grounds to stand on with the contract. After our discussion, here is what I have decided to do.
1. Find out what the trainer said about the dog.
2. Interview the brother in law who has the dog now and see if I feel he is capable of dealing positively with Cooper. He will need to fill out a contract also if he proves to be a good candidate home. This contract will state he is to contact me every three months with behavior updates and sooner if he thinks he has a aggression problem.
3. If he does not agree to the contract, I will take the dog back immediately. I am also prepared to pay 1/2 of the purchase price of the pup back to the original owners. If there is a hard time at that point, then I will file suit and get the dog back legally.
I am really hoping that it doesn't get to the point of legal intervention.
Thanks for all the moral support and encouragement. It means a lot! :D
Woohoo!!! I pray this all works out in the end. For Cooper AND you!
Candy,
For what it's worth, I think you have formed an excellent
plan. Especially getting the "new owner/ brother-in-law" to
sign a new contract. They can't help but get the point that
you take your dogs(and their welfare) seriously.You are a
model for reputable breeders everywhere. All The Best to you.
Liz & Buddy.
All things here that can be crossed are, in hopes everything works out for you and the sweet Pupster!!!
MOFF put it so well, I agree completely. Good luck to you and Cooper.Quote:
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
All things here that can be crossed are, in hopes everything works out for you and the sweet Pupster!!!