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Excellent advise as always, Carrie! :)
Sorry you're facing these issues with Bon, Anna. How much longer were you planning on leaving him intact? I'll admit that I don't know much about giant breeds, but I would think snip time must be getting close. :) :eek:
We wanted to wait about 2 years. That's what everyone I know has told me and what I've gotten from the research I've done.Quote:
Originally posted by micki76
I would think snip time must be getting close. :) :eek:
To be fair Anna, to Bon I am not entirely sure his issue with Keegan was all his fault of course. You know how my jealous gurl is when Mommy touches or loves on another dog. And of course I was loving on Bon and Keegan did her thing. And Bon of course wasn't going to put up with that just like any of them :(
I have heard several times that the neutering and size difference is bogus and it is healthier for the dog to be neutered. I really honestly don't know but with aggression tendencies in any dog I guess I lean more towards neutering.
I don't know but I hope you get this figgered out b/c I would miss the Bon Bon boy!
I'm not sure I would wait that long. If you intend to get a behavioral benefit out of neutering him, the earlier the better. At adult onset, the behaviors can become conditioned responses more than hormonal responses.Quote:
Originally posted by anna_66
We wanted to wait about 2 years. That's what everyone I know has told me and what I've gotten from the research I've done.
I would consider neutering him earlier than the two years you suggested for a couple of reasons. 1. He is showing signs of behavior that would benefit from neutering. 2. You actively take him to the dog park. Most people who show and breed (where I think you have gotten most of your information) are not taking their dogs to the dog park. Being at a dog show is a much different environment than taking your pet to the dog park.
I believe you enjoy taking the dogs to the park for a run. I know I do! Unfortunately, a lot of owners take their dogs to the park that don't consider other dogs. You experienced that with the dog at the watering hole. If you call your dog and it doesn't come, then you don't have control of your dog and it shouldn't be off leash (my opinion). Most of the people I encounter at the park fit that category. :( That's why I am always on the guard when I'm at the park. I don't worry about Dixie because she has an air about her that says "I'm the queen" and other dogs just seem to respect that. But Dusty is a different story. Other dogs seem to want to "challenge" him all the time. :( One thing I have done with Dusty that has helped tremendously is the park is not just a playground. I also take him aside and practice his obedience. All the distractions there make it a perfect place to proof all the things we work on at home. And I feel certain if he can listen and do what I tell him there, he can do it anywhere!
I'm more familiar with Goldens and their growth patterns so these are guidelines from my experiences with them.... A large male is grown height wise by the time they are 9 - 12 months of age. However, they continue to develope and fill out for at least another year. The bones are still soft and pliable until aroung 24 months of age. Even if they are intact, I will not jump the dog or do anything that will affect the developement of the soft bones. That is why I don't agree with dogs doing agility or advanced classes of obedience (jumps) before they are two. It can cause hip problems. Most people think hip problems are heriditary but they can also be aggrevated by environment. At two the dogs bones are formed and become harder. Take for instance the fact that you can't have an OFA hip certification until the dog is 24 months old. That is exactly why!
Taking all that into consideration, if Bon was my dog, I would have him neutered at 1 year of age. I would not wait until he is two. I just would take extra caution not to do anything that would possibly cause bone growth problems. Water exercise is the best type of exercise possible and with summer coming, I'm sure you can find a place to let him swim!
I think you are a strong alpha leader and continued training to make sure you have strong, enforced obedience commands for Bon are very necessary. He will benefit from all the socialization you can give him as well as advanced training.
Hi anna!
Not to make it anymore confusing, but also take into consideration that neutering may not totally alleviate the issue.
I had Gully neutered before 7 mos and he showed some aggression after being neutered. He really loves his food and does not like Oz and Murph coming near it. He seems to fully trust me, so I've had no issue. I've even been able to take a cooked pork bone directly from his mouth, but other dogs is a different story. Oz is not too big of an issue, because Oz doesn't challenge him, if Gully gives out some signals to back off. Murph, however, due to being old and a terrier, is a different story. He doesn't see and hear as good as he use to, so I don't think he picks up on Gully's body language. And he'll just march himself up to Gully's bowl and push Gull out of it. Then when Gull tells him to back off, he won't. So far it's all been posturing, some growling and air snapping between them, no actual fighting.
Murph being so small and fragile now, I worry about Gull hurting him without even trying though. Can't magically resolve the issue by neutering, because they're all neutered. So I keep up with making sure none of them get anything for free. Everybody must Sit or Down for treats or dinner. And once they do I give Gully his first. That seems to have helped tons. Also, when Gully's eating, I keep Murph away from him, even to the point that if Murph finishes his treat first, I pick Murph up off the ground, until Gull is finished with his. Me being more aware and keeping consistent with training has been key.
Les...
Anna,Quote:
Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
I'm not sure I would wait that long. If you intend to get a behavioral benefit out of neutering him, the earlier the better. At adult onset, the behaviors can become conditioned responses more than hormonal responses.
I would consider neutering him earlier than the two years you suggested for a couple of reasons. 1. He is showing signs of behavior that would benefit from neutering. 2. You actively take him to the dog park. Most people who show and breed (where I think you have gotten most of your information) are not taking their dogs to the dog park. Being at a dog show is a much different environment than taking your pet to the dog park.
The quote from Candy's post really makes a lot of sense to me.
I think two years is a very long time to wait, especially if you want
to get the benifits of solializing Bon at the dog park.I do know
other dogs react differently to an un neutered dog. Don't know
why, but they do. Some thing to think about anyway.
I think everyone has given you some good things to think about and research, so I won't add too much :)
I think you said the first time in Dayton, he started to "have issues" immediately. But what about the most recent time, with the water dish?
Reason I ask, was just a thought I had. In Findlay, there didn't seem to be any problems until later in the afternoon. Is it possible, Bon getting tired is a contributing factor? Not to say that is only only thing going on, but maybe for a while shorter trips to the park would help? Or let him play a bit, then remove him from the park, for a quick snooze, and let him back at it? I know at dayschool they have the puppies take more naps, then the older dogs, and it seems to help.
I think you and Mark both have done a great job with Bon. You started training him early, and have socialized him early. I hope this is just a bump in the road, as he goes through those "teenage" years. As Staci said, we'd sure miss Bon if he couldn't come to the park anymore!!
I think that everyone has given some great advice in this thread. I can't help but say that I'm wondering if Nebo could have caused some of Bon's problems. :( It sounded like Bon had been fine until Nebo stayed there. Nebo is one of those dogs like Shelteez said that can react poorly to an intact dog, especially dogs that are bigger than him. They got along very well and played until they started trying to mount eachother or food was involved. I don't know if them getting pissy with eachother could have made Bon leary of other dogs.
I really do not think Bon is aggressive he's testing things and seeing what he can get away with right now. Nebo does not like to share water at the park either, he's never got into a fight with a dog over it, just growled at them.
Although I think neutering greatly helps, even with the reaction other dogs will give him it isn't the quick fix. Nebo was socialized a ton plus neutered at 4 months old and he has his moments still. I'm not sure if I would wait fully 2 years but if that is what you think is best for him then you should do it.
I didn't read the posts, but here is my opinion on dog parks.
I use to love them, and take Josie there all the time. However, the exact same thing you are talking about Bon happened to Jo. One day she just decided she didn't like the way some dog 'looked' at her I guess, cause she growled at him. She's been dog aggressive ever since. I've talked to a few trainers, and they both tell me they get a lot of people who's dogs become dog aggressive from being at the dog park. I won't take my dogs there anymore, or to any dog park unless it's for a PT meeting...
Josie doesn't mind SOME dogs, but she will attack other dogs. She growls at them and just hates them. She was always VERY good around dogs. I duno, maybe think about going back next time? Is there somewhere else he could run?? I'm no dog expert, but this is just from my experience and what others told me
I guess some dogs just aren't that nice. Perhaps they do something to other dogs that angers them? I have no idea.
BTW, Josie was an older dog when this started. She was probably 4? And it only started after I had been taking her to the dog park a lot
Ok, I'm not quite sure if I'm answering this right but I'll try.Quote:
Originally posted by Cincy'sMom
I think you said the first time in Dayton, he started to "have issues" immediately. But what about the most recent time, with the water dish?
The very first time we went to Dayton was a couple days after Findlay. Everything was ok at first but then another dog started following him around and it looked like something was going to happen and then Nebo jumped in.
Then the next time was the next week. As soon as we got there I guess you'd say he was apprenhensive (hair raised on his butt and neck). But we would visit each dog and move on and he was fine. The waterbowl incident was the very same day and he had already met the pup he jumped at 10 min earlier.
I do think in Findlay he was getting tired, but Mark and I agreed that it seemed like the other dogs pretty much started it with him...expecially Woody. Because I don't remember him growling at another dog till that all happened.
I sure don't want to leave him at home and of course I'm going to keep trying. It seems he really wants to play with them but like some of the others have said he's just testing the waters:o
I think next time I go to Dayton it will be just me and him and then we'll see how he does. I'll let you know:D
***And Amy (wolf_q) I do not think in the least that Nebo had anything to do with how Bon acted. I can't believe you'd think that, you silly girl you:p They did have their little disagreements but after all...it was Nebo who jumped in and stopped anything that may have happened with that other dog! ***
I really don't have much advice to give, except that I have noticed that every intact male I've met at dog parks was overly picked on by all of the other dogs, especially neutered males, and challenged constantly. I totally understand your wanting to wait to neuter Bon. . . just something to think about and try to notice if that's what is annoying him. Bon looks like the sweetest pup and it sounds like you guys are doing everything to set him up to be a social, well-adjusted adult. He probably is testing his boundaries, and going through the obnoxious crazy teenager stage :) good luck with everything