is this cruel?

I tried everything with Timber. Haltis/gentle leaders are absolutely useless with her. I tried every training method in the book. The only thing that works is the prong collar. I don't find it cruel at all. She knows that if she is wearing this collar, and she pulls, it will pinch her. So she does not pull. So she does not get pinched. There is no cruelty in that. However, once the collar comes off and a different collar goes on, she will start to pull again. I have a bad arm, and the prong collar has really helped. I feel that Timber and I have much more relaxing and fun walks, and have even learned to bond better as a result.

RB Leather also wore a prong collar. Unfortunatly it didn't work. She still pulled. She walked much better with a halti but she could pull it off her head. Choke chain was useless.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aly
[B]I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.


Yes you did say we were uneducated,,, or excuse me,,,,, not educated enuff... thank you *I* am,, and so are many of the ppl who use them... dont call us not educated enuff because we use something you dont believe in!

Your Quote Aly....
People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LorraineO
[B]

Quote:

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Originally posted by aly
I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.


Yes you did say we were uneducated,,, or excuse me,,,,, not educated enuff... thank you *I* am,, and so are many of the ppl who use them... dont call us not educated enuff because we use something you dont believe in! the use of a prong collar can and is a positive exp all around when they learn to walk happily with thier owners !!!!!!

Your Quote Aly....
People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by My Peanuts
Sometimes it's for the dogs own safety.

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I agree! There was one time where Timber and I were rollerblading. Generally she sticks by me and doesn't run off. But this one time, she decided to take off after a dog. She was wearing a halti so she didn't stop. She ran right out into the road, dragging me along. I fell and was hurt, and Timber could have easily been hit by a car. With a prong collar, she puts ABSOLUTELY no tension on the leash. I believe she must be touch sensitive around her neck area, because she will not pull the leash at all. It hangs loosely by her side. And I don't have to worry about her running off.

When I had Josie in obediance, they told us to use them. It did work really good, but I haven't used it since then. I'd much prefer the gentle leader. It looks really good too.

I use one on Echo and sometimes on Tango depending on where I'm going, I don't think it's cruel at all as long as you use it correctly. Both dogs will walk jsut fine on a regular collar unless they're really excited about something and I'd rather know that I have full control of them, than have them run after something and ahve no control over them at all. That's jsut my opinion though...

I don’t often disagree with you Alyson, but on this point (based on my experience) I do. I no longer use a prong collar, because I discovered the No Pull Harness and now use that, but I’ve used a prong in the past on a large dog that was a puller. I wouldn’t use it on a small dog, because they’re easier to control with other methods (the No Pull Harness).

Before I bought the prong collar, I wrapped it around my arm, making sure that the inside of my arm (the soft, fleshy part) was making contact with the prongs. I them pulled on the end of the collar very hard. Know what? Didn’t really hurt that much. It was uncomfortable enough, that I didn’t want to do it again. I really don’t see how being uncomfortable for a bit, and learning that the uncomfortableness is the result of your own actions, is bad. That’s how the No Pull Harness works as well, it makes their armpits uncomfortable when they pull.

JMO :)

I agree, once again, with Aly 100%

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LorraineO
[B]

Quote:

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Originally posted by aly
I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.


Yes you did say we were uneducated,,, or excuse me,,,,, not educated enuff... thank you *I* am,, and so are many of the ppl who use them... dont call us not educated enuff because we use something you dont believe in!

Your Quote Aly....
People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

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Ok, if you want to take it that way, there is nothing I can do about it. Dog training methods have changed drastically in the past 20 years, especially in the last 5 or so years. People ARE more educated now. I wasn't calling you uneducated and I'm not going to say that again.

People here think I'm a know-it-all, but I'm really not. I listen to what people say and see things from all sides. However, I have dedicated my life to dog training and rescue so I think I should be able to put my opinion on here and not be jumped all over. I am not spewing stuff that I make up. As I said, I've been studying this for years.

Take it how you want it. I can't keep posting and explaining what I meant.

I am 115 lbs. and 5 ft. 2 inches tall, ( and hope to take off 10 lbs. more)...Dale is 100 lbs ( and probably is still going to put on 10 more lbs.) While Dale walks well on a leash, and isn't generally a puller...i could NEVER walk him securely w/o using the pronge. I am so happy to have it. If we are walking down the street, and he sees another dog, he does, naturally, try to go towards it, and w/o the pronge on, I would be dragging behind him...since i only outweigh him by 15 lbs. The obedience trainer along with the owners, decided a couple weeks into obedience school which dogs needed the pronge, and Dale, being a giant breed, and a breed capable of pulling thousands of pounds, was certainly a good canidate for the collar. I recommend it to any large breed dog owner. He understands when it is on, that we mean business, and he is to walk well with us...he seems to forget, at times, that we are alpha. We certainly don't use it in any kind of negative way...just by means of controlling him around strangers and dogs while walking him...and people should know that it is a pinch collar, not a stabbing collar...when he pulls, it pinches him, to remind him to walk nicely. We also train him with treats, and positive reinforcement, but this is certainly a neccessity for us...and probably for a lot of large breed dogs.

I wanted to add: Before putting the collar on him, he is put into a sit, and does not try to get away when he sees the collar...again, it only pinches him, when he starts to pull...during the majority of the walk, he doesnt even feel it...it has slack to it...Dale is stubborn and if he doesnt want to go somewhere, either, he will stop like a mule, and is nearly impossible to move..so it assists us that way as well.
To answer the question more briefly, i do not think it is cruel at all.

Try one--on yourself. Seriously...take a normal choke style collar, put it around your thigh and pull it like you would with a dog on a leash. It hurts like hell and you will have a bruise where the collar crosses. Then do the same thing with a prong collar, like the one pictured in this thread. Equal pressure all the way around, no pinching, no bruising.

Yes, I have tried it on myself. I don't use choke collars anymore. I do have a prong collar or two around the house. Most of the time I want my dogs to pull so I don't bother with any kind of training to stop it, but occasionally when taking a 140 pound malamute to the vet, the prong collar has been handy.

This is one reason I prefer prong collars to choke chains.

Quote:

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A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

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http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

I also once read somewhere, that a choke chain used incorrectly can cut off the blood supply to the head, killing a dog. Prong collars are much easier to use correctly. You just have to make sure that it is not too tight (because if it is, the prongs will pinch the dog), and that it is high up on the neck. My dad wore a prong collar around his neck once for Halloween, and my stepmom dragged him around. He said that it didn't hurt all all when she pulled, it was just uncomfortable. He said it was no wonder the prong collar wasn't even effective on Leather -- she had fur, he only had bare skin, and it was only uncomfortable for him lol.

I believe this is a similiar situation to spanking a child. Some consider it abuse, some consider it discipline. It can turn into abuse, either way...but it is a subject that will have very varying views...point blank.

I think what we all need to remember is that having dogs is just like having kids (or it is to me). Many parents don’t spank. Many parents don’t speak harshly to their kids. Many parents use other ways to motivate and discipline their kids than other parents. Everyone is different, so our methods will all be different. I personally don’t like spanking kids, unless they’ve done something atrocious, but many parents use it for not telling the truth, talking back, etc. Some parents don’t spank at all.

Let’s all remember that we’re all different.

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with using prong collars at all. Nor do I agree with choke chains. These are all just band-aids to the real training problem, using pain to subordinate your dog. To me, if some one absolutely needs a prong collar to control their dog, they have little to no control over that dog. What if the dog does manage to escape the collar? Will they be long gone? probably.

I know people who show their dogs, and use very fine choke chains adjusted correctly at the neck, which I'm passive about. They also only use these collars during shows, not during liesurely walks, because their dogs have been properly trained. 99% of the dogs I see being walked with choke chains and prong collars, are not fitted even close to correctly, and the dogs are still constantly looking for a reason/moment to yank their owners arm off (because the dog lacks training and, despite the painful collar they're wearing, in their minds they are still the alpha). Most people I see with dogs wearing choke chains and constantly tightening the chain, which is completely wrong. If choke chains are going to be used, you should only need to give a slight jerk every now and to remind the dog to heel. Again, training will solve these problems, but in today's society everyone wants an automatic fix.

What I use in replacement of a choke chain, is just a rolled leather collar fitted correctly at his neck. It doesn't tighten, restrict, or damage anything, but it won't slip off and its perfect for leash training. ALL of the awesome, credited, educated dog trainers I've met suggest this, and will not accept dogs into class with chokers, prongs, or haltis ^^