I'm wondering if they think a "mature" couple is like 40 or 50 ish?Quote:
Originally Posted by tikeyas_mom
Then you add in 3 dogs and a baby on the way - they probably don't know what to think....
:eek: :D
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I'm wondering if they think a "mature" couple is like 40 or 50 ish?Quote:
Originally Posted by tikeyas_mom
Then you add in 3 dogs and a baby on the way - they probably don't know what to think....
:eek: :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by shais_mom
hahahaha Do you think thats what people actually think of when they think mature?? Is AKA older couple?? haha OMG I must look like a total loonie bin if thats true lol.
Canis-Lupess,
My problem is that three of the female dogs ALL large breeds, All want to be alpha. And We have already had to resort to putting the largest of the three dogs (Great Dane) in a muzzle because she has seriously tried to KILL the other female dogs.
She shows no signs of when she is about to attack the other dogs, she just does it out of the blue with no warning. She has cost me and my parents ALOT of money in vet bills. So in a muzzle she must stay till we move out.
If I had it my way Baby (Great dane) would be the obvious Alpha female, But she cant be allowed out of her muzzle because she is such a freak about attacking the other dogs in the house. Even if they cower to her.
Daisy (Pitbull) would be second in charge, but as of now she thinks she can be first in charge because Baby cant defend herself.
Tikeya (siberian husky) would be third, but she doesn't seem to agree. She doesn't give up being alpha female very easily, even if she has been attacked several times, and nearly died. She holds a HUGE grudge towards Baby for beating her up so many times, so I sence ALOT of tention between Baby and her ALL the time.
Ebony (black lab) she is so passive and carefree. she could honestly care less abou tthe other dogs around her, let alone risking her life to be alpha female.. She is the most well behaved out of the four females.
Oscar (shih tzu)would be the obvious fifth in comand, because he is the smallest.
I have told everyone in the house that if they are to give the dogs treats to make sure that Baby gets hers first, then Daisy, then Tikeya, then Ebony, then oscar.. But there are so many teenaged boys coming in and out of this house that they have a hard time remebering to keep it in that order. Alot of the time Baby gets her treats last because she is in a muzzle and she has to be pput in a seperate room to be given any treats..
Canis-Lupess,
My problem is that three of the female dogs ALL large breeds, All want to be alpha. And We have already had to resort to putting the largest of the three dogs (Great Dane) in a muzzle because she has seriously tried to KILL the other female dogs.
She shows no signs of when she is about to attack the other dogs, she just does it out of the blue with no warning. She has cost me and my parents ALOT of money in vet bills. So in a muzzle she must stay till we move out.
If I had it my way Baby (Great dane) would be the obvious Alpha female, But she cant be allowed out of her muzzle because she is such a freak about attacking the other dogs in the house. Even if they cower to her.
Daisy (Pitbull) would be second in charge, but as of now she thinks she can be first in charge because Baby cant defend herself.
Tikeya (siberian husky) would be third, but she doesn't seem to agree. She doesn't give up being alpha female very easily, even if she has been attacked several times, and nearly died. She holds a HUGE grudge towards Baby for beating her up so many times, so I sence ALOT of tention between Baby and her ALL the time.
Ebony (black lab) she is so passive and carefree. she could honestly care less abou tthe other dogs around her, let alone risking her life to be alpha female.. She is the most well behaved out of the four females.
Oscar (shih tzu)would be the obvious fifth in comand, because he is the smallest.
I have told everyone in the house that if they are to give the dogs treats to make sure that Baby gets hers first, then Daisy, then Tikeya, then Ebony, then oscar.. But there are so many teenaged boys coming in and out of this house that they have a hard time remebering to keep it in that order. Alot of the time Baby gets her treats last because she is in a muzzle and she has to be pput in a seperate room to be given any treats.. Or to be fed.
You may need to use a realtor that will help with rentals.
ALSO - I don't know about your area, but here in Alberta if a place has an assumable mortgage, you don't have to qualify....you just take the mortgage over, and that can be cheaper than rent. You do need to pay the difference between...I can't recall...the present mortgage on the place and what you buy it for?
Anyway, if you or your folks have a realtor friend, they might be worth talking to for advice.
The fighting won't end until there is one clear pack leader and that has to be you - which is a lot easier said than done I know especially as you are pregnant.
I don't know if anyone here can give you tips on how to show them you are the boss. Archie is forever taking toys off Tobey so I just take the toy away from him so he knows I'm in charge but both my boys are smaller dogs so I wouldn't try anything like that with your girls.
I hope you can get this resolved soon - it can be much fun for either you or the dogs being constantly on edge, which the dogs will sense so are more likely to attack.......
That's what I was going to say. I know you love your dogs a lot (that's obvious :p), but it really doesn't sound like this situation is going to work at this rate. By saying, "Baby is alpha. She's just acting this way because other people and dogs aren't acknowledging her as alpha", you're actually enabling her to act aggressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brody's Mum
You are alpha. Period. The dogs shouldn't fight with each other if there's nothing to fight over. Leadership? You are leader; there's nothing to fight over. Food? You ration out food; there's nothing to fight over. Toys? You give out toys and you take them back; there's nothing to fight over. At this point, I think you need to start reigning in the dogs again. Leave no toys in the open. No treats. No collars. No muzzles. No food, etc. The house will be barren. They are fed in the morning and again at night. They will Down+Stay before receiving their meal.
I would also advise to stop putting them in pack order. They are the subordinates. Don't go "Baby is first for treats, Daisy is second, Tikeya is third, etc." That's just asking the dogs to challenge among themselves. If you must feed treats, give them a command and *then* give treats. It doesn't matter what order they're in because the point is that they have to do something for you. Thereby, they're inferior to you. Plus, if Baby or Daisy are truly getting aggressive, there is no other option than consulting a behaviorist or considering rehoming the dog. When Ivy was developing leash aggression, I contacted a trainer first thing in the morning. I, too, was short on money, but the trainer and I negotiated a payment plan. Please please do it! Behaviorists are trained and experienced to nip aggression in the bud. They will know how to fix this!
ETA: Just thought of something. You're probably heavily pregnant right now, right? How often do you exercise the pups? Pent up energy can easily be redirected into frustration and, thus, aggression. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.
Man, that's a tough situation, and I see red flags popping up because you are going to be bringing a newborn into this situation soon, too. The baby's safety & needs have to come first, even before the great love you have for all of your dogs. Could you live with something happening to your little one because of what a dog out of control with aggression might do? Look at what happened to Anna & Bon, she never imagined she'd get bit. In the heat of a fight, accidents happen. But, there are plenty of people on this board with more than one female and they get along just fine & never have a fight. I guess a lot of it depends on your dogs' personalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by tikeyas_mom
I hope you are able to find someone who can help you find a solution you can live with. It would be worth the investment. You know we're here to support whatever your decision is. (((hugs)))
Is Daisy spayed? It is common for dogs that are not spayed/nuetered to become aggersive against other dogs.
I would recommend putting up baby gates to seperate your dogs so they won't fight. Also, give them the same attention, they might become jealous of eachother if you give one more attention them the other.
You should really get a trianer when you have a money. It will make a huge difference in your dogs' behavior.
We ALWAYS make the dogs obay a command before recieving any food/treats, or toys.. They never get treats without having to work for them. When I feed Tikeya, Ebony, and Daisy they are in different areas of our living room (Baby and Oscar are never around when they get fed). I make them all laydown, and wait before they recieve any food. All three listen very well when its feeding time.Quote:
I would also advise to stop putting them in pack order. They are the subordinates. Don't go "Baby is first for treats, Daisy is second, Tikeya is third, etc." That's just asking the dogs to challenge among themselves. If you must feed treats, give them a command and *then* give treats.
Baby gets fed outside, with my mom, she sits and stays before she gets her food.
Oscar has food in his bowl all day, but the other dogs never bother with it, or him.
I would never be able to live with my self if somthing happend to my baby. I have that lingering fear in the back of my head that Daisy may become fear aggressive towards the new baby. I actually emailed a dog trainer yesterday, she got back to me today, and should be calling any time now. I will talk with her for a bit about Daisys history etc, see what she thinks of the whole situation.. I really dont know how we will be able to afford the training, but we will find away I suppose.. I know first hand that getting in the middle of a fight can end with being seriously hurt, because my mom and I got inbetween Tikeya and Babys last fight, and we both ended up in the hospital.Quote:
Man, that's a tough situation, and I see red flags popping up because you are going to be bringing a newborn into this situation soon, too. The baby's safety & needs have to come first, even before the great love you have for all of your dogs. Could you live with something happening to your little one because of what a dog out of control with aggression might do?
I obviously dont excersize the dogs as much now as I did before I got pregnant. But I Make it a goal to walk two dogs, every second day for about 45 min around my naibourhood. I always switch around who I take. (ex: I will walk Tikeya, my mom will walk Oscar.. Then two days later I will Walk Ebony, and my mom will walk Baby etc.. etc..)Quote:
ETA: Just thought of something. You're probably heavily pregnant right now, right? How often do you exercise the pups? Pent up energy can easily be redirected into frustration and, thus, aggression. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.
Right now I am medical leave, I am not allowed to exercise excessively. So If I find I cannot walk the dogs; My mom and I will take a couple of them to the beach. (We never take Baby or Daisy to the beach because they are so dog aggressive when they are there, but we always make sure Baby and Daisy are seperated if we arn't at home)
Yes Daisy is spayed.Quote:
Is Daisy spayed? It is common for dogs that are not spayed/nuetered to become aggersive against other dogs.
Behaviourists are now saying that dogs do not try to dominate their human owners like they used to think they do.
After researching what some of the leading experts had to say, it seems most of them now agree on this. In fact, Peter Neville said in an interview that when students are taking the pet behaviourists course, they aren't even allowed to use the word dominant anymore.
Even if that was so, the heirachy does not stop at leader. It goes all the way down and if the dogs do not know where they stand with each other, they will fight until they do...
This can lead to death where humans are concerned and their inadvertent interfering stops the dogs from resolving their problems.
Even if the dogs know they aren't leader, that doesn't mean they aren't going to try and climb the ladder. How do you think dogs get to be leader to start with? Also, it isn't all about being leader, it is about having more privileges. With rank comes privilege. If you can take no. 2s place and have their privileges even though you aren't no. 1, you will do it.
It is well known in a pack that most of the fighting takes place between no.s 2 and 3. No. 1 (alpha) is surprisingly tolerant and not involved in much bickering because his status is clear. Nobody dare challenge him. Most arguments take place further down the ranks and thats what is happening here.
If a clear cut ranking order is not established between the dogs and they are treated as equals, they will continue to fight until one comes out on top.
Dogs do not do equality. It isn't a case of human in charge and then dogs all equal underneath them. Dogs do not work like that. The three females with the issue need to know where their place in accordance to each other.
Once the highest of the three doesn't feel threatened by the second because their status has been lowered, she will not attack. She has no reason to. Same goes for second with third.
You can establish your dominance over the dogs all you want but that will never prevent them fighting between themselves over who is going to be no.s 2, 3 and 4 and being no. 1 isn't the only position that dogs fight over as some people seem to mistakenly believe.
I have a feeling alot of Daisys problem has to do with her genetics and her puppyhood. I did contact a dog trainer today, she told me that if Daisy was spoiled as a young pup (treated like a person and not a dog, and coddled when she was affraid) She will act out in fear aggression.
She may have just attacked Baby because she was affraid that Baby might attack her first. She also said that if it has anything to do with genetics then Daisy is pretty much beyond help.. She said that once genetics have written a personality pattern in the dogs brain it cant be changed..
She also said that Fear aggression is the hardest type of aggression to cure. She said that Daisy may never be the confident dog I want her to be.
I am setting up a private consult with this trainer for next week, its 50$ for her to meet Daisy and get to know her a little bit. Hopfully this trainer will be able to help us.
It's true that the pack does not consist of one alpha and the rest being apathetic subordinates. However, in a pack of more than three dogs, the pack will generally fluctuate on a regular basis. And if we try to set into concrete our dogs' positions, we are essentially creating frustration. The beta dogs are in a continual fight for better positions and their position is always liquid, so to treat the dogs in a linear order can't be good. If one day, Dog 1 wins dominance over Dog 2, but you treat Dog 2 higher than Dog 1, there's probably going to be a scuffle that day. I dunno. The more I see the more I just don't agree with treating one dog higher over another =/
Anyhow, I really hope you find the root of the problem. But if it turns out that the dogs will always be fighting in this situation, re-homing wouldn't be a bad or irresponsible idea. I know it's a terrible idea, but I'm scared the dogs will still be fighting with one another when the baby arrives.
Doing this sorted out my dogs issues and they never had them again....so it can be good.
Dogs only come into conflict if they manage to raise their status to become too equal to the one above them and then try to challenge them for their position. If the dogs are treated in a way that stops them from raising their status, this won't happen. Also, many fight take place simply because the humans actually raise a lower dogs status. A dog who would remain lower if it was just for the other dogs. I bet if those three females were wild dogs, there wouldn't be the amount of fighting that there is living in a home with humans and, if there was, most of them would be simply quick scuffles with no injuries inflicted.
I know this technique is used by top behaviourists. In fact, I first read of this idea in one of John Fishers books. He has now passed on but he was one of the top pet behaviourists in the world and many U.S behaviourists learnt from him.
Still, as even he was having doubts as to the dominance thing between dog and human before he died, I don't think that the owner establishing dominance over the dogs would make any difference. It is now accepted that they view us as different and not part of their pecking order and do not try to dominate us as such.
When they show aggression towards us or misbehave, it is more about simply trying to protect resources that they are used to having and don't want to have taken from them. Obviously, they only do this with things they've had or have....not with things they've never had but would like to have. Thats what makes them different from people. The resources are not all tangible either as in objects like food or toys...it can account for any kind of aspect or a dogs life.
This is a temporary solution and not a substitute for training (I know you already know that t_m, I just feel compelled to throw it in in case anyone gets the wrong idea) but when Star's aggression started to peak we put her on Clomepramine for a few months while we worked with her. It seemed to make it easier for her to tolerate Wilbur's presence, and it took the "edge" off of her enough that we were able to, over about eight months, work with her on some of her issues. I think we may have ended up having her PTS without it, she bit several people. :(