Chug anyone?

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Originally Posted by k9krazee

Anyway, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. What exactly is the point of having a purebred dog? And why is there so much hatred towards 'designer dogs'? I used to absolutely hate the idea of creating mixed breeds...but now my take on it is if a new breed is created to do a job better (like the BorderJack, for example, in flyball) and the dogs aren't from bybs or puppymills but from responsible people and healthy dogs, what exactly is the big deal? It's exactly the same thing that happened way back when...things evolve and things change and new breeds can/will be created. I understand that most designer dogs right now are being produced from bybs, and are being sold for waaay more than they should be and I believe that THAT is wrong. Same with BYBs of purebred dogs. But I honestly don't think that breeding two different breeds together is neccessarily irresponsible.

And that's just my viewpoint on the subject at the moment... ;)

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You have a point & I do agree with you.
If you are breeding a healthy dog (as in doing all the tests, etc...), screen homes, etc... AND are breeding to create a breed that can actually peform a job well or better than I think it's great. It's just too bad that most don't.

I think the point in having a purebred dog is that it is easier to keep track of their genetic problems (granted it would be the same with mixed breeds too IF we had a place to start. Many mixed breeds were bred by accident or from a byb or pm at first & their health history is unkown) and also to have a dog that is "bred" for a certain job.

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Originally Posted by emc

Yes, I understand what you're saying, Iv4dogs and I agree for the most part but the majority of dogs that are bought or adopted today only serve the purpose of keeping their owner company and both purebred and mutts can serve that purpose well. Puppy mills and bybs don't just breed cross breeds but purebreds too.

Shelters being full doesn't have anything to do about breeding too many dogs, but breeding dogs that are ill tempered and difficult to deal with as well as people not thinking carefully through what owning a dog means in terms of responsibility and geting the dog that's right for their lifestyle. Shelters themselves add to the problem by making it very difficult to adopt a dog. I run a Chihuahua forum and one member who had experience with Chihuahuas wanted to get one from a rescue and give a homeless dog a home, she was rejected because she had young kids so she ended up buying one from a breeder. I once read and article in the paper in which the reporter said that it's easier to adopt a kid than a dog. I think the shelters should lighten up, they are rejecting too many folks who come looking for a dog.
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I also agree with you too, to a certain extent. There are still many people out there that get a purebred because of it's capability to perform a specific job. Granted yes, *most* are just companions now.
I am fully aware that BYB's & PM's also breed purebreds & I am still against them.
And yes it is mighty hard to adopt from shelters now-a-days.
Oops I am running out of time.

Designer breeds are a HUGE issue with me. I can not and do not tolerate any breeder of DESIGNER breeds (I have no qualms with breeders who purposely develop a breed to perform a job or fulfill a niche in the dog world such as the Silken Windhound - I'll talk about that some more).

What is the big deal, you ask? The big deal is that dogs are among one of the most diverse species in the world, which nearly eliminates the need to create more breeds. There are literally hundreds of breeds developed to fulfill a certain job or task. It is not necessary to create more. Yes, in the beginning, there were mixed breeds but people mixed and matched contrasting breeds to create dogs who would excell at their job. Over time, these mixed breeds were carefully inbred/linebred and refined to create a distinctive breed type. They began to breed "true" to type and uniformity within the breed began to emerge. However, the creation of a breed takes purpose and passion. Most, not all, but most, designer mix breeders crossbreed their dogs as nothing more than a selling gimmick. I have not yet seen a Toy crossbreed that has more of a purpose than to provide companionship. While it is true that humans today mainly acquire a dog for companionship, it does NOT make it okay nor ethical to purposely create mixed breeds to fulfill public demand.

I devote myself to purebred Pekingeses and, as such, I find it simply APPALLING that "Greeders" have decided to take advantage of the general public's oblivion and create designer breeds out of my breed. Those greeders do not understand half the passion, tears, and labor that went into the creation and sustainment of my breed. It infuriates me to know that greeders are manipulating my breed simply to line their pockets with money. If we allow greeders to pollute our purebreeds, we lose the breed itself. Can you imagine yourself without your trusty Labrador Retriever by your side? Or what about your loyal German Shepherd Dog guarding you throughout its life? Or even that cute little Chihuahua whose temperament has been shaped over hundreds of years to produce the perfect companion? People who purposely mix breeds are shaving away hundreds and thousands of years of selective breeding. In my opinion, this is a big deal.

Now, it was mentioned that there are indeed mixed breeds which are created for a purpose. I dont know anything about JRT/Border Collie mixes (which, in my opinion, should only be available to very experienced owners...), but I do know a little something about Silken Windhounds. In the sighthound world, the only furred breeds are very *large* dogs. As such, people who like furred breeds are forced to either get a very large dog or settle for a thin-skinned, thin-coated smaller dog. That's not an option for many people as the presence of fur protects the dog from harsh weather and cuts/bruises (a very big deal in the sighthound world). Thus, the Silken Windhound emerged out of very careful breeding of Whippets and Borzois. What's most interesting about Silken Windhounds is that their creation, from the first mix to the most recent litter, has been meticulously documented. In fact, Silken breeders and owners are pushing for AKC recognition. And I am very relieved that these people chose the name "Silken Windhound" rather than "Borpit" or "Whipzoi" ;)

The whole idea of "designer breeds" just seems like a marketing ploy to me, but there are breeds that are cross-bred to improve their working ability. I'm thinking of one very old example - the Alaskan Husky! There is no such breed, an Alaskan Husky is simply a cross-bred dog bred for stamina & speed, and used for pulling sleds. While they often breed with a husky, some Alaskans don't have any husky in them at all.
I guess I didn't realize that a pug-chi was a "designer breed" - I just thought our little friend Lucy was 1/2 pug and 1/2 chi. :rolleyes: I'm a little behind the times.

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Originally Posted by emc

Does anyone here have a chug (chihuahua/pug). If anyone has one can they post a photo of their pooch? I was wondering what they look like.
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You mean a mutt with a silly name? :D

Wow Giselle, that was extremely well written. I was trying to write something similar to that yesterday but my mind was not co-operating.
There are some parts of your thread that I never really thought through thoroughly before and some of my views have now slightly changed, for the better. I couldn't agree more with you.
Thank you!

The only good reason to breed is to better a breed. Not to create more.

With the amount of dogs dying in shelters, the vast majority of them being mixed breeds, why anyone would want to create more mixed breeds is beyond me. Yes, the shelters and rescues may not have the type of mix that you are looking for -- but when you want a mixed breed, you can't be specific anyways. After all, it's getting two completely different genetics from both sides -- it's looks and characteristics won't be predicatable.

People say that mutts are healthier with less temperment problems --- but that is a complete myth. The breeds aren't the ones being bred, the two dogs in question are -- and if you have a dog that carries health problems, bred to another dog that carries health problems, then the puppies will either have or will carry health problems. Breed/s is irrelevant. The sad thing is that people who pay $1000 for a purebred show/working quality animal are more likely to pay for it's surgery -- and that is why vet statistics will tell you that more purebreds end up having surgery than mixed breeds.

With the overpopulation problem, we need higher standards. Mixed breeds are rarely created for anything other than for the sake of mixing breeds. If one wants a mutt, they should go to a shelter where 85% of the dogs are mixed breeds. Otherwise go to a reputable breeder who breeds purebred dogs.

As for designer breeds -- well this is much worse than breeding your dog to the neighbor's dog to keep a puppy, in my opinion. This is asking thousands of dollars for a dog whose purpose could be fullfilled by a purebred dog. A "chug" has absolutely no purpose. It's a pug mix with increased risk of luxating patellas and behavioural issues. It's a chihuahua mix with increased risk of breathing problems and obesity. It's INCREDIBLY rare that I ever see a purebred dog in the petshop. Because purebred dogs just aren't the "thing." Designer breeds are. They are taking away from what we already know. They are ruining hundreds of years of selective breeding. I walk into the petshop and see poo-a-poms, shi-poos, yorkipoos, maltepoos, cockaliers, cockapoos, labradoodles....the list goes on and on. All ridiculous names. All of them registerable only with unreputable registries that promote puppy mills. Our standards should be higher.

Just my opinion...I've often joked about breeding Visa to a standard poodle to create "groenendoodles" so I could sell the puppies for $2500. People often tell me I SHOULD. NO WAY.

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Originally Posted by emc

I'm not a breeder so I don't know anything about breeding but there seems to be this elitist attitude about only breeding pure breds. What's wrong with cross breeding (aka - designer dogs), they make as good as pets as any other dog. And just because someone decides to cross breed that doesn't automatically make them a puppy mill or irresponsible breeders. Anyway that's just my opinion.
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Im with you 110% on this one! How i look at it, if you purchase an animal from a breeder, or a shelter....either way, your saving a life! if you buy a dog from a breeder, you in turn are saving a dog from the possibility of getting sold to an irresponsible owner, then going to the pound! I aggree that people should adopt animals from the shelter, but then again if you adopt a dog from some place other than a shelter, your saving that dogs life from possibly going to the shelter in the long run! I hope that makes sense! if people want to cross breed, im sure there's people who will buy their cross-bred dog/animal! I dont aggree with the outrageous prices that these "designer breeds" go for, but at least there's people like us that will adopt one from a shelter or who will pay that amount for there animal to just go to a good home! Sorry if i offend anyone, but either way, we all love our dogs here, and im sure we all do our part to make sure there are loved and cared for just like the rest of us! buying a designer dog doesnt make them any less of a dog lover!

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Originally Posted by coco-bean

How i look at it, if you purchase an animal from a breeder, or a shelter....either way, your saving a life! if you buy a dog from a breeder, you in turn are saving a dog from the possibility of getting sold to an irresponsible owner, then going to the pound!

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I don't agree with that at all. You are supporting that breeder who will continue to breed irresponsibly and give the puppies to irresponsible owners.

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Originally Posted by Giselle

Designer breeds are a HUGE issue with me. I can not and do not tolerate any breeder of DESIGNER breeds (I have no qualms with breeders who purposely develop a breed to perform a job or fulfill a niche in the dog world such as the Silken Windhound - I'll talk about that some more).

I devote myself to purebred Pekingeses and, as such, I find it simply APPALLING that "Greeders" have decided to take advantage of the general public's oblivion and create designer breeds out of my breed. Those greeders do not understand half the passion, tears, and labor that went into the creation and sustainment of my breed. It infuriates me to know that greeders are manipulating my breed simply to line their pockets with money. If we allow greeders to pollute our purebreeds, we lose the breed itself. Can you imagine yourself without your trusty Labrador Retriever by your side? Or what about your loyal German Shepherd Dog guarding you throughout its life? Or even that cute little Chihuahua whose temperament has been shaped over hundreds of years to produce the perfect companion? People who purposely mix breeds are shaving away hundreds and thousands of years of selective breeding. In my opinion, this is a big deal.

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I just wanted to say, giselle, i am with you all the way on this! But just because i prefer purebreeds doesnt mean i wouldnt adopt a designer breed(mutt) from a shelter to give it a good home! i want to keep the breeds divided, just a preference of mine! I wouldnt buy anything BUT a purebreed lab from a breeder, as you said, it took hundreds and thousands of years to perfect these breeds, Lets keep them seperate!!!
(and this portion is too BC_MoM and my post)Thats perfectly fine, not a single person on PT thinks the exact same way as another so if i feel like i saved a life then i saved a life....to me! Cainan for example lived in complete and udder sh*t, i took him home and gave him a clean environment, and in me doing that i feel like i saved him! thats all the closure i need!!

I can't say I agree with you coco-bean because I believe there is a real difference between adopting vs. buying from breeders (especially unreputable ones). You are right, however, in the sense that a life is a life and all animals deserve the best life possible. However, it is the breeder's job to determine who is a responsible owner and it is the breeder's task to create a contract that stipulates that the puppy in question will NEVER be allowed to be relinquished to a shelter. Plus, I don't believe you are honestly "saving" a life if you buy from a reputable breeder (puppy mill/BYB.. maybe). On the other hand, if you adopt an animal from a high-kill shelter, you are truly saving a dog. JMO.

And you raise a good point, coco-bean. We are not "purebred elitists". We love ALL dogs. However, many of us devote ourselves to the preservation of certain breeds. You can understand, now, why it causes such a commotion when we see our breeds being manipulated simply for the almighty dollar.

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Originally Posted by Giselle

I don't believe you are honestly "saving" a life if you buy from a reputable breeder (puppy mill/BYB.. maybe).

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I agree. A puppy from a reputable breeder wouldn't need to be "saved." And when buying from a puppy mill or BYB, you may be saving that one puppy, but you are damning the lives of it's parents and the future litters they will produced. What is one life compared to hundreds?

Wow, I didn't think my asking what a chug looked like would spark such an interesting thread. You've made a very informative post, Giselle and Wolfsoul you made an excellent point, people do tend to take better care of things that cost more. But I still feel that someone who breeds a cross or not to "standard" is not neccessarily an irresponsible breeder.

If they breed healthy dogs with good temperments and care where their puppies end up I don't see how that is contributing to the problem of homeless dogs nor do I see it as being a threat to the purebred dog. Breeders devoted to their particular breed have been breeding and honing the characteristics of the purebred for centuries all the while by the side of those who have been cross breeding and making "mutts", yet there's no clue that the purebred is on the brink of extinction. I'm not at all saying that breeding purebreds shouldn't matter, I myself have owned Chihuahuas for years, but that what should determine a good breeder is that their dogs should have the potential to make a good pet and bring their owner joy years to come.
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Good point, Emc. The problem lies in where these people acquired these purebreds to cross breed with. At some point somewhere, an unreputable breeder allowed another unreputable breeder to use their purebreds to create designer mixes. Now, if the dogs were to be completely genetically healthy and the breeder had had a distinct breeding program, I wouldn't have such a problem. However, the problem is that most designer breeders get their dogs from unreputable breeders who couldn't care less about the overall health of their progeny. Thus, we don't know the history of the dog. We don't know if this dog's granddam carries von Willebrand's, hip dysplasia, hypothyroidism, cancer, etc. We don't know if there is a history of osteosarcoma or luxating patellas or progressive retinal atrophy in the dog. Most likely, the breeder who purchased this dog won't even be testing for any of these diseases. They say love is blind. I say love for money is blind as well. Why can't these crossbreeders obtain good specimens? A purebred dog worthy of being bred and passing on its bloodline is a precious specimen. A reputable breeder would never give their dogs to a designer breeder.

A good breeder not only breeds for the right temperament, but they breed to sustain the breed itself. They test their dogs to ensure that the breed will stay strong genetically. They screen homes to ensure that the buyer in question is right for the dog. While they produce companions that will bring joy to families for years to come, they also produce dogs that can and will fulfill their original duties with exuberance and efficiency.

Like it was mentioned before, dogs today ARE mainly used for companionship, but it does not make it ethically right to create any dog just for the sole purpose of companionship. We have enough dogs for that. They're called shelter dogs :) Until we can end the pet overpopulation problem, I don't believe we should add to the problem by creating more pets whose only purpose is companionship.

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Giselle



Good point, Emc. The problem lies in where these people acquired these purebreds to cross breed with.

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That says it all. When I was at the National Dachshund races a couple weeks ago I was in the "Meet the Breeds" area with all my collies explaining to people the collie breed. Well set up next to me was the famous area breeder of Goldendoodles and Labradoodles. Well we politely expressed our point to eachother and by the end of the day he was telling me how much he wanted a collie again.
He took a look at Steele and asked a little more about my stud boy and asked if I had his pedigree with me. I showed him it and said go ahead and keep that copy. He got all excited and handed me his buisness card and said " if you have another litter I would be real interested in a collie". I smiled and kindly returned his card and said, "jeff I'm afraid you are the last person I would ever consider selling one of my collies too." He snatched back his card and didn't talk to me the rest of the day!!!http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/biggrin.gif
God knows (well we all know) what he really wanted one of my collies for!!!

I have no issue with mix breeds bred for a PURPOSE, key word being "purpose" breeding for a pet is NOT a purpose because any dog can be a pet, there is no reason whatsoever to breed dogs just to be pets. hypoallergtic dogs again, no good purpose, breeding whatever breed to a poodle does NOT make a hypallergenic do, if you want a non shedding dog get one that already exists, then the dog will be garantee'd no shedding.

flyball mixes I have no issue with. nobody is claiming these dogs as purbred, nobody is trying to make them purebred, they are listed with NAFA as "mixed breed" we dont say "I have a purebred BorderStaffyJack" "borderstaffyjack" is simply a LOT easier to say then "border collie X staffordshire bull terrier X jack russel terrier mix" lol I also have no issue because they are bred for a purpose, fast flyball height dogs is a neich that is not filled by ANY purbred dog, and people responsably breeding these dogs will ONLY sell to other flyball homes, there are a few PMs and BYBs out there breeding them, but no sane flyball person would buy one, all the mixed breeders in the flyball world health test and PROVE the dogs.

similarly for working dogs I have no issue with mixed breeding, there are people that will mix breed to create dogs that are better suited to their specific situation, they dont go around telling people "hey I created a new breed!" the people I refere too, they keeps the dogs they need, and may seel the others to other farmers that may need help from the mix as well. a good example of working bred mixes are hangen tree cowdogs, these are mixed breeds bred for work, I have talked to people hihly involved in the wroking world who have seen the hangen tree cowdogs work and were in disbeilef, these dogs are mix breeds, there is only ONE breeder of them, the dogs are highly skilled and extremly well bred, they were bred for a purpose.