Speaking of illegal immigrants...

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Originally Posted by momoffuzzyfaces

Let me see if I can explain this a bit: What happened was awful and shouldn't have happened BUT if he hadn't been where he wasn't supposed to be none of it would have happened. People do have some responsibilites for themselves after all.

It's like say there was a drug deal going down across from a bank that was being robbed and one of the drug dealers got caught but was accused of being a bank robber instead of a dealer. If all parties involved had been obeying the law in the first place no one would be in jail. :confused:

Have I missed the boat totally?
Not meaning to offend anyone, just my line of thought.

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I wouldn't say you are missing the boat (no pun), and I could agree with you, in a general sort of way. But, when one applies the facts to this case, it isn't a 'just' result. For me, if I follow your logic, a person that jaywalks 'deserves' death when he is struck by a vehicle that is speeding.

Sure, the speeder is breaking a law, but, so is the jaywalker, so, he is deserving of the punishment.

For me, the punishment must fit the crime. Here, it didn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, some other biblical reference like that.

I just wouldn't have read the article and thought, "oh well, you deserved something anyhow" or "and just who do you think is paying this person's freight"? What jumped out at a particular reader was more telling than the article, nearly.

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Originally Posted by Cataholic

I wouldn't say you are missing the boat (no pun), and I could agree with you, in a general sort of way. But, when one applies the facts to this case, it isn't a 'just' result. For me, if I follow your logic, a person that jaywalks 'deserves' death when he is struck by a vehicle that is speeding.

Sure, the speeder is breaking a law, but, so is the jaywalker, so, he is deserving of the punishment.

For me, the punishment must fit the crime. Here, it didn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, some other biblical reference like that.

I just wouldn't have read the article and thought, "oh well, you deserved something anyhow" or "and just who do you think is paying this person's freight"? What jumped out at a particular reader was more telling than the article, nearly.

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No I don't think he deserved punishment (not that anyway). I just meant if he hadn't been where he shouldn't be, it wouldn't have happened. Like if someone walks out in front of a car and gets hit, if he hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been hit. His actions by doing what he shouldn't caused the result.

It's like if you invite a snake to sleep with you, you may get bit. The snake may think it's protecting itself and bite but if you hadn't had him there in the first place, no bite would have happened.

Never mind, I'm confusing myself now! (even more than usual, I mean) :D

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Originally Posted by momoffuzzyfaces

[color=teal][b]It's like if you invite a snake to sleep with you, you may get bit. The snake may think it's protecting itself and bite but if you hadn't had him there in the first place, no bite would have happened.

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OMG. WHAT an analogy!!! Now, tonight, when I go to bed, I am going to think there are snakes in my bed!!! My one true 'phobia'. ACK!!!! :o :D

:D Sorry! I hate snakes too!

At least they shouldn't be there unless you invite them! :D

Gosh...I had missed this. I cannot tell you how sad this makes me.

An innocent man deserves five years in prison for a crime he did not commit.

How righteous. How judgemental. How compassionate.

And we wonder why people keep hating...and we wonder why people keep killing each other.

I'm right with you Sara but I think we have been down this road/tunnel before. I have larger issues to deal with right now ~ I just wanted to raise my hand to you and Johanna.. sigh, as usual we will have the nay sayers. It is summer and quite hot outside.. in many ways

I agree 100% with Cataholic!! The fact that he isn't suppose to be in your country is not the issue & should not have even been brought up in this case.. The case is purely about a human being being wrongfully accused & nothing more! Once that issue is delt with, then sack him for the law he has broken himself.

Ex. Carla Halmolka (sp) was "set free" from a horrible murder rape (or whatever) she was involved in. "If" she was wrongfully accused for a bank robbery & went to jail for that. Then they learned she was wrongfully accused for the Robbery & she sued, would you guys feel the same? Oh well she deserved jail as she was set free from murdering & raping people
(there was video proof.. oh & this is a real case.. well not the robbery part, I made that up)..

I'm sorry but other crimes have no relevence in the bank robbery case (its only relivance is in the sentensing). Shes still a human being & deserves the same rights as everyone, other wise the legal system would fall apart & wouldn't be treating everyone as equals & passing judgement before any case was shown..


I'm sure that didn't make a whole lot of sence.. I'm not good with words, but I tried...

How about this, just to go along with the "he shouldn't have been there in the first place" idea:

A child sees a farm with horses, and reads all the signs that say "Keep Out! No trespassing!" etc but climbs the fence anyway and starts to run towards the horses, excited and wanting to pet them. Spooked by someone unfamiliar they panic. The child gets kicked in the head and trampled.

The child shouldn't have been there in the first place. Did they deserve what they got? They wanted to see what was on the other side, because it was different, new and exciting and maybe better than any other play spot.

I live in Arizona and goodness knows we get a lot of illegal immigrants here. Illegal or not, no one should serve time for a crime they did not committ. So our government picked up the tab for his defense... how is that any different for our government picking up the tab for the defense of a serial killer, child rapist etc? Don't forget, "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you." Basic rights. I don't particularly like the idea of my tax money going to defend some of the most heinous criminals, but that is how this country works. Illegal or not, he is still a human being a fact that we tend to overlook too often. He wasn't here committing crimes to make money, he was working. If he's illegal, deport him. Fine. But do no throw him in prison where he might have been KILLED for his alleged mollestation of a little girl. Innocent is innocent, and of the crime he was accused he is INNOCENT.

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Originally Posted by heinz57_79

How about this, just to go along with the "he shouldn't have been there in the first place" idea:

A child sees a farm with horses, and reads all the signs that say "Keep Out! No trespassing!" etc but climbs the fence anyway and starts to run towards the horses, excited and wanting to pet them. Spooked by someone unfamiliar they panic. The child gets kicked in the head and trampled.

The child shouldn't have been there in the first place. Did they deserve what they got? They wanted to see what was on the other side, because it was different, new and exciting and maybe better than any other play spot.
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Believe me I know too well about children getting hurt for being where they shouldn't. I had a cousin killed when he was a baby by climbing up on a tractor tire that was leaning against a wall in a barn. It fell on him and killed him. Did he desere to die? No. But still, it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been where he was warned time and time again not to go.

The illegal immagrant did not deserve the punishment he got either. The people who did that to him deserve punishment. What I was trying to say, rather poorly obviously, was if he had made "other" choices like coming into the country legally, the time line of his life would have changed and he probably wouldn't have been where he was. His life wouldn't have been ruined. :(

But should the people who accused him wrongly be allowed to remain anonymous? Shouldn't their names be known to the public for what they caused unnecessarily to this man? illegal imigrant or not, it has nothing to do with why they were in court this time.

I don't like paying for his lawyer either, but I like even less that he was accused of something, convicted, served 5 years and THEN they find out he didn't do it. Shouldn't the accusors pay back the costs to the government for the trial, his upkeep, his lawyer? Maybe pay him for lost wages and ruining his reputation?










Then deport him :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mruffruff

But should the people who accused him wrongly be allowed to remain anonymous? Shouldn't their names be known to the public for what they caused unnecessarily to this man? illegal imigrant or not, it has nothing to do with why they were in court this time.

I don't like paying for his lawyer either, but I like even less that he was accused of something, convicted, served 5 years and THEN they find out he didn't do it. Shouldn't the accusors pay back the costs to the government for the trial, his upkeep, his lawyer? Maybe pay him for lost wages and ruining his reputation?
Then deport him :rolleyes:

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Yea, I can't believe they get to remain anonymous after what they did. The public should be allowed to know so they can be aware and maybe protect themselves from this sort of thing.

They should give a settlement for taking 5 years out of someones life needlessly. They should pay all court costs on both sides plus serve hefty jail time themselves.

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Originally Posted by king2005

I agree 100% with Cataholic!! The fact that he isn't suppose to be in your country is not the issue & should not have even been brought up in this case.. The case is purely about a human being being wrongfully accused & nothing more! Once that issue is delt with, then sack him for the law he has broken himself.

Ex. Carla Halmolka (sp) was "set free" from a horrible murder rape (or whatever) she was involved in. "If" she was wrongfully accused for a bank robbery & went to jail for that. Then they learned she was wrongfully accused for the Robbery & she sued, would you guys feel the same? Oh well she deserved jail as she was set free from murdering & raping people
(there was video proof.. oh & this is a real case.. well not the robbery part, I made that up)..

I'm sorry but other crimes have no relevence in the bank robbery case (its only relivance is in the sentensing). Shes still a human being & deserves the same rights as everyone, other wise the legal system would fall apart & wouldn't be treating everyone as equals & passing judgement before any case was shown..


I'm sure that didn't make a whole lot of sence.. I'm not good with words, but I tried...

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UM actually YES I would feel the same way./ In fact I would feel even MORE the same way ;)

That psycho b*tch should have NEVER been let out of jail. I don't care what her bullsh*t story is. She is JUST as dangerous as her husband Mr. Bernardo.

He abused her and made her do it. HMMMM well I know if I was abused and my husband forced me to drug and help rape my sister I would be crying at the very least (although he would have to kill me before I would assist in raping my family)

That woman scares the hell out of me.

I can't see that woman as a human being and having the same rights. I think her rights should have been tossed out the window after what she did with her husband. She is an animal. Not a human being.

the thing that angered me the most is she protested when she found out that her whereabouts would be made public. HELLO you helped RAPE and KILL teenage girls with your husband. I wouldn't want her in my neighbourhood

and if that makes me uncompassionate and intolerant than so be it. But she should rot in jail.

Sorry I know that was off topic but I hate Ms. Teale (as she is now known)

if your name is Hoppenstein you need to be identified.


Hey, will he get his synagogue back?

what about the people who hired him to build the building?

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At the risk of being Un-PC........

This story has Immigration, Alledged Pedophilia, Religion, Lawsuits, Lawyers and Human Rights twists to it....


We just need a drunk actor, a drugged cyclist and a terrorist group shooting off rockets and I don't have to read the paper for a week! :confused:

Here's some more fuel for the fire. When is something going to be done about this problem? And it is a problem, especially here in Florida.
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.d...73252836501309
FHP Thinks Suspect's ID Is Fake

By Amber Smith
The Ledger

Picture

A FHP trooper appeared in court Thursday to ensure that Miguel Gonzalez, an illegal immigrant, would be held without bail. (PAUL JOHNSON/Ledger photo)
HAINES CITY -- Florida Highway Patrol investigators are looking into how illegal immigrant Miguel Gonzalez, charged in the hit-and-run death of an off-duty police officer, got what they think is a counterfeit Florida ID card.

Gonzalez, 43, of 3601 Baker Dairy Road, was charged in the Wednesday death of Haines City Officer Phoenix Braithwaite.

Gonzalez had his first appearance in the 10th Judicial Circuit Court on Thursday afternoon, where no plea was entered, but a public defender was appointed. He is being held without bail at the Polk County Jail.

"He is an illegal immigrant in this country. There's nothing keeping him here. We believed he would be a flight risk," Highway Patrol Cpl. John Carvalho told Bay News 9.

If Gonzalez had not fled the scene, he would have been given a ticket in the accident, said Carvalho, who was at Gonzalez's first appearance Thursday to make sure no bail was set.

"He made the wrong decision and he is going to have to pay the consequences," he told Bay News 9.

Investigators are still looking into the case, but they are convinced Gonzalez's state ID card is counterfeit. He never filed an application for an ID card, said Frank Penela, spokesman for the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles.

"There is no matching record to that name," Penela said. "It has to be counterfeit. We would have a record of it if it was valid."

Investigators will be checking into where Gonzalez got the ID card, said Trooper Kim Miller of the Highway Patrol, which is investigating the case.

"That will all be a part of the investigation, which could take anywhere up to 60 days before it is completed," said Miller, an FHP spokeswoman.

Gonzalez was driving a van that belonged to Maria Ponce-Luvianos, Miller said. She said investigators are trying to find out why he had her van.

Gonzalez and his two passengers were on their way to work at an Orlando golf course when the crash occurred.

All three are in the country illegally, according to U.S. Citizenship and Naturalization Services officials, who have interviewed them.

The two passengers, Orovelio Martinez and Javier Benitez, were picked up by USCNS officials and are being detained as material witnesses, Miller said. They are not being charged.

Martinez, who was sitting in the front passenger seat of the van, and Benitez, who was in the right rear seat, were taken to Osceola Regional Medical Center for treatment after the accident. Neither had life-threatening injuries, Miller said. She said Benitez is Gonzalez's brother.

Braithwaite, 24, was on his way to work about 5:25 a.m. Wednesday on U.S. 17-92 in Osceola County near the Polk County line when he was hit head-on by a van driven by Gonzalez, authorities said. He died at the scene.

Gonzalez was passing a tractor-trailer and a cement truck at the time of the accident. The force of the crash threw Braithwaite and his motorcycle into the trucks' path, which ran over them.

Gonzalez ran from the crash, but was arrested by Polk County sheriff's deputies about 4 p.m. Wednesday as he was walking back toward his home.

He is charged with leaving the scene of an accident where a death occurred, which is a second-degree felony, and not having a driver license.

As he was being led out of the Haines City Police Department on Wednesday and taken to Polk County Jail, Gonzalez said he ran because he was scared and didn't have a driver license.

Mario Mora Trejos, Gonzalez's pastor, did not want to talk about Gonzalez on Thursday.

A woman who said she is a family friend of Gonzalez said Thursday he is a kind and family-oriented man.

"Everybody makes mistakes," Hilda Benitz told Bay News 9. "Maybe he went into shock. We don't know. Only he knows what he felt during the accident.

"We are hurt by this," she said. "He's a good person, and it's a misfortune. It could have happened to anybody."

Braithwaite's funeral service will be at 11 a.m. Tuesday at the NorthRidge Christian Church at 2250 Scenic Highway S. in Haines City. He will be given a full law enforcement officer's funeral with honor guard.

"He was on his way to work when he was killed. He was on his way to protect and serve the citizens of Haines City. We feel he deserves the full honors," said police Chief Morris West.

Visitation will be held from 10 to 11 a.m. Tuesday at the church.

West said there has been an outpouring of sympathy for Braithwaite's family from the community and from various police agencies.

Braithwaite's wife, Ivette, has said she is not ready to give interviews about her husband's death. The couple have a 2-year-old daughter.

"We will continue to be here for her and whatever she needs," West said. "The department is a very close-knit family. Phoenix was one of our family."

Amber Smith can be reached at [email protected] or 863-422-6800. Ledger reporter Jason Geary contributed to this article.

When did illegal immigrants suddenly become sub-human?! "Oh, well, he shouldn't have been here anyways, so who cares if we tore five years of his life away and shredded whatever good reputation he may have had for the rest of his life?"

Really now....I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, but I'm also not against ALL PEOPLE being treated fairly. I do think he deserves a big fat settlement out of this, and I hope the horrible people who ruined his life burn, and that their daughter is a strong enough person to handle all of the drama she must be surrounded with right now.