Dog Races

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Originally posted by 7up
Martin, do you realize how close your description fits a certain, recently expelled greyhound farmer?

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Actually, I was alluding to Grey2K's position paper on greyhound racing that was the centerpiece of their attempt to ban greyhound racing in Massachusetts. It alleged that the preferred method for culling puppies was by "bashing" them. It was written by a nitwit lawyer who simply dredged up stuff from ARA websites. When it quoted actual mainstream media sources, the articles quoted ARA spokespersons or groups, but offered no substantial evidence that culling actually exists.

You're right, though. Jerry Calhoun flipped out and killed a greyhound with a hammer. He was reported to the authorities by racing people, the dogs on his farm were taken care of by racing people, and he was banned for life from the NGA.

Hey, nice job on the poll. Caroline was all indignant about me asking Global members who were also GTers to vote in the GT poll, but conveniently left unmentioned you being here recruiting people to participate. :rolleyes:

I did that for no other reason than to annoy you. :p

Jay

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Originally posted by jcsperson
Hi everybody. This is my first post here...

Before addressing any issues, I want to introduce myself to everyone. My name is Martin Roper. I'm a small-time racing greyhound owner and long-time pet owner. I'm not a trainer or farmer---my expertise in greyhounds is mostly in the area of greyhound pedigrees and breeding. I am on the staff of the world's largest breed database, http://www.greyhound-data.com/index.htm. My work in the field is accessed by breeders across the U.S. and even overseas. I am very closely affiliated with a nearby greyhound farm for which I make many of the breeding decisions.

My visit here was prompted by a visit to GreyTalk by several PTers recently. Some have come back here and reported that we are saying that they know "nothing," or are "ignorant" and "stupid." What they failed to reveal was their own behavior over there. Most posted anonymously, so it's hard to say who said it, but one PTer proclaimed him/herself to be "completely educated" in greyhound racing and proceeded to rattle off a litany of fallacies. Considering that there are greyhound trainers, farmers, breeders and adoption reps who have decades of experience in the breed, you can only imagine what kind of reaction that got.

Let me be the first to admit that I was the one who used the term "ignorant." If one looks in the dictionary one will find that it means, "lacking education or knowledge," or "unaware or uninformed." The statements made by many of the "guests" over there, and indeed some members over here, clearly show a lack of knowledge of the facts.

I see many of my GT friends (even you, Jay) have done a fine job representing greyhounds in a very factual manner. The truth is that those who represent the breed can be better custodians of greyhounds. What some people on the lunatic fringe of the AR/ARA world are saying, however, hurls the most outrageous accusations at greyhound racing. Judging by some of the posts here, a lot of that seems to have stuck with people whose only source of knowledge is "a guy I met who has greys who has no reason to lie" or "a web site about greyhounds."

I hear at length the term "the racing industry" bantered around like there is some single entity, some CEO or board of directors, some oligarchy of corporations that "runs the show." The truth is that there are some 400 kennel owners, 400 farmers, hundreds of trainers, and 3,000 NGA members who act as individuals. Each of them is responsible for his or her own behavior.

The breeding and raising of Greyhounds is regulated by the NGA. They are the most tightly regulated dog breed on earth. Farms are regularly inspected by the NGA. Farms found to be deficient can be fined, suspended or even shut down. Egregious violations are met with a lifetime ban from the NGA. I invite comparison with the AKC to see if similar standards are enforced.

Once the dogs are at the track, they come under the scrutiny of the State Gaming Commissions. Kennels and tracks are regularly inspected and the dogs are randomly checked for illegal substances.

Add in the scrutiny of the ARA crowd and the compliant press that hangs upon their every word, and greyhound racing has a light shone on it like few areas in the dog world.

It might interest some of you that I started out adopting a dog from and volunteering for an AR group. I raised $1,000s for them and relayed what they told me far and wide. Without having seen greyhound racing with my own two eyes I had nothing to go on other than what they told me.

It's been quite a journey. A couple visits to a track ("nice---nothing really scary here") to a kennel ("hey---this is nicer than my HS football locker-room!), to a farm (you mean, these pups get to stay with their moms until three months of age and then stay together as a litter 'til 12 months instead of getting jerked out at 8 weeks to live with a human family?").

Pardon my pride here, but greyhounds are the most carefully bred canines on the planet. Their bloodlines go back to the 1700s. They are bred to a performance standard, not one of appearance. Unlike its AKC cousin, of which less than 200 are whelped per year and are grotesquely inbred, racing greyhounds are bred in sufficient numbers to keep the gene pool diverse and healthy for the forseeable future.

Rather than go back and debunk, one by one, all the previously posted errors, I invite you to ask questions and my fellow greyhound enthusiasts will try to answer them as clearly as possible.

Long, I know, but thanks for reading.

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Thank you for another perspective. It gives me more to think about. I've never known anyone that is involved in Greyhound racing. I don't know that we have it in California.

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Originally posted by 7up
I did that for no other reason than to annoy you. :p

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How thoughtful of you.

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Originally posted by K9soul
The inbreeding that goes on with AKC show breeders is something I do know about and I find it disgusting and alarming. Some people try to go to a "reputable" AKC breeder in order to get a quality dog of a particular breed, probably not realizing how polluted the bloodlines often are, though I believe some breeds are worse than others, and again not all breeders participate in inbreeding.

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A recent study showed that every Sheltie on Earth is the genetic equivalent of a cousin. Using a scale called the Coefficient of Inbreeding, a process I won't go into here (do a Google search for an explanation), one can figure out how closely bred our animals are. Most AKC dogs are highly inbred.

The racing greyhound is one of the most genetically pure breeds because it is bred to a performance standard rather than a written breed standard. I study the methods of the great thoroughbred breeders like Federico Tesio. He claimed that if one crossed a TB with a Standard Bred horse it would take 20 generations to bring the progeny back up to the level of the TB in that mating.

Over the centuries all sorts of crosses were attempted to add certain traits to the greyhound, the most famous of which were Lord Orford's Bulldog crosses in the 1700s. All were miserable failures despite claims by some that our present-day greyhounds descend from those crosses.

If one looks at photographs of the great 19th century coursing dogs and compares them with contemporary AKC or NGA dogs, it's pretty clear which has remained true to type. Throw a racing blanket over one of those old coursers and it would not look out of place in the Post Parade at Derby Lane. AKC greyhounds, on the other hand, look to me like statues of greyhounds stylized by the sculptor to suit his artistic whim. To my way of thinking, they represent a genetic dead-end for the breed while the blood of the great coursing dogs flows through every racer.

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Originally posted by Tonya
Thank you for another perspective. It gives me more to think about. I've never known anyone that is involved in Greyhound racing. I don't know that we have it in California.

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It might interest you to know that greyhound racing began in Emeryville, California in 1919. It flourished there until its popularity became so great the better financed horse tracks and owners conspired with legislatures to get it banned because of alleged ties with organized crime. The real reason was that greyhound racing was kicking the ponies' butts at the box office. There has not been greyhound racing in CA since, but neighbors Oregon, Arizona and Mexico all have tracks.

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I study the methods of the great thoroughbred breeders like Federico Tesio. He claimed that if one crossed a TB with a Standard Bred horse it would take 20 generations to bring the progeny back up to the level of the TB in that mating.

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This is VERY interesting...

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Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
This is VERY interesting...

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I guess my purpose for pointing this out was to debunk some of the theories that greyhounds were crossed with Terriers or Bulldogs (Orford) to make them more aggressive. The prey drive gained would be more than offset by the speed lost and it would take several generations to get the speed back by which time the aggression gained would be so diluted as to be meaningless.

It would have made more sense to breed high-prey greyhounds to other game greyhounds to get the aggression they needed while retaining the speed.

If twenty generations would be lost by breeding a TB to a Standardbred, very similar horses conformationally, imagine how many generations would be lost breeding a Greyhound to a Bulldog. I don't doubt that people tried it---I do doubt that the progeny of any of these crosses survive in our present day pedigrees.

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Originally posted by 7up
I did that for no other reason than to annoy you. :p

Jay

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:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by jcsperson
It might interest you to know that greyhound racing began in Emeryville, California in 1919. It flourished there until its popularity became so great the better financed horse tracks and owners conspired with legislatures to get it banned because of alleged ties with organized crime. The real reason was that greyhound racing was kicking the ponies' butts at the box office. There has not been greyhound racing in CA since, but neighbors Oregon, Arizona and Mexico all have tracks.

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WHOA! I had no idea Greyhound racing took place in...EMERYVILLE?!! Wow. Have you seen what it looks like now *ROTFLMAO*. Malls, honey---everywhere-malls...I live 20 minutes away from Emeryville and often go there to shop.

Do you know the exact location of the former track? Wow, that's amazing.:eek:

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Originally posted by dogs_4_me
:rolleyes:

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... :eek:!!

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Originally posted by Giselle
WHOA! I had no idea Greyhound racing took place in...EMERYVILLE?!! Wow. Have you seen what it looks like now *ROTFLMAO*. Malls, honey---everywhere-malls...I live 20 minutes away from Emeryville and often go there to shop.

Do you know the exact location of the former track? Wow, that's amazing.:eek:

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I don't. Sorry.

You might try to look up a local historical society---almost every area has one---and ask them if they have more info on the track.

EXHIBIT: "Emeryville's Wild Gambling Past"
http://www.oaklandlibrary.org/Seasonal/Sections/ohrshowoak_emeryville.html

Emeryville Historical Society
Donald Hausler (510) 652-8276
Nancy Smith (510) 652-8276

I think everyone who read through all this carefully got a pretty good education. Most folks found out quite a lot that they never knew and many assumptions that they had made were shown to be founded on misinformation. The lesson learned is to never base your beliefs on hearsay or propaganda.

I never did figure out who here was "completely educated in greyhounds," the self-description that person used on GreyTalk. For whatever reason this individual chose not to reveal him/herself.

If anyone has any questions about greyhounds as a breed or greyhound racing, I can be found pretty easily over at GT.

Thanks for reading.

I had thought that the person who claimed to be educated was K9Soul -- and she joined the board, thus revealing herself??

I kind of forget what was said in that thread (and I wish everyone was capable of doing so... as to move on.) but I do believe who posted that mentioned they had a Greyhound mix, which would be K9Soul?

I could be wrong though. :)

Do you think maybe we can all let this thread die down and sink into the history of the board, and possibly share your pets -- comments on others -- and contribute to the rest of the board instead of sticking to this thread and other greyhound topics? I'm know i'm not the only one who would like for this to happen.
It would be nice if you guys to stick around and contribute to all of PT, and I appreciate those who have. :)