White Shepherds

And I will tell you something else mike'd-
HAVE YOU ever met Fred Lantings?? I HAVE! Have you ever worked with Fred Lantings?? I HAVE!! And he would be horrified at how you are twisting his words- you obviously have never worked with him, or even possible totally read/NOR UNDERSTOOD anything by him.. He states you breed for traits desired, but understanding the total working dog is capable of all sorts of work. Case in point- I had several litters that were out of show parents- top in the show world- litter of 9- 7 ( SEVEN) WERE natural Sch. dogs- one was totally show- and one was a pet by desire of the owner- want more examples???? I had another litter- supposed to be all Sch? police work dogs- everyone show-... Top obedience titles- but all show-... You fail to understand the total make up of the Shepherd, and seriously misunderstand the ability of a shepherd- farm dog, or police, guide dog or therapy, ... The shepherd fits it- and your narrow mindedness is why people do not allow the natural traits the dog of a all well rounded dog.. Maybe your dogs are shy at back firing cars- MINE NEVER WERE..

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You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be.
This isn't the GSD -- this is the AWS. In your logic, breeding for the whole dog involves breeding for schutzhund?? What about the other breeds that weren't originally bred to be your opinion of the "whole dog?" They have to be schutzhund titled in order to be a complete dog too? AWSs are used mainly for therapy/service work. Where does schutzhund fall into that category? I can argue that the dog should be flying disc titled too. It's the same irrelevance.

Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
No it isn't -- the Pets and People Society has nothing to do with the Okanagan Humane Society. The humane society here is small and run out of volunteers' homes -- they do not have a facility like the SPCA and they do not have any affiliation with any of the clubs or societies in the Okanagan.

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..

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quite an assumptions, so what have I said that has been untrue, you think in 20 years you would have learned a bit more.

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

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So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

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Wow, even after I specifically pointed out, with her own words how she constantly compares and puts WGSD's ahead of GSD's you still miss the point entirely. I said the GSD has a reputation, that reputation was built thru careful breeding and testing their breedings stock for the complete dog PERIOD. That is how the GSD became the service dog that it is. if you're going to compare the WGSD, which I used her own words, and I'm sure I could find more than a few other posters in this thread that have also, then you better be PROVING your dogs like the GSD has. The fact of the matter is they haven't proven anything, other than a handful of dogs over the past 30 years or longer. That's a long time.

as for the other working dogs, yes, i'm sure they could come up with tests to test their drive and temperment the same to keep the breeds the same without bull baiting and the like, but they aren't my breed I"m not going to get into what they should do. However if they were going to be claiming they can do everything the same or better than a GSD, you bet I'd be telling them to prove it to me. But I have seen far more pits being proven that WGSD's as well.

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

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I never said you had to be breeding for schutzhund. I said you need to be testing your breeding stock, I guess you missed the part about HGH. That is a long ways away from being "herding tested" and TT and CGC prove nothing. Test your breeding stock and prove something. Those who say titles are meaningless had nothing to do with the reputation the GSD has today. ITs the mentality of BYB's and puppy mills. I hope you enjoy the company you keep.

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

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you are so wrong. One my schH trained dogs go everywhere with me and don't get freaked by canes and silly acting people. They've been tested and can tell the difference of a threat and silly people. Second, and SChH trained dog wouldn't be a guide dog, it would be the tested dog, shown to have all the requisite parts of a GSD and used for breeding the guide dogs. SchH trained dogs think and act on their own a lot of time, they arne't robots, for 20 years experience, i'd have to say its more than lacking.

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Originally Posted by wolfsoul

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You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be.
This isn't the GSD -- this is the AWS. In your logic, breeding for the whole dog involves breeding for schutzhund?? What about the other breeds that weren't originally bred to be your opinion of the "whole dog?" They have to be schutzhund titled in order to be a complete dog too? AWSs are used mainly for therapy/service work. Where does schutzhund fall into that category? I can argue that the dog should be flying disc titled too. It's the same irrelevance.

Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
No it isn't -- the Pets and People Society has nothing to do with the Okanagan Humane Society. The humane society here is small and run out of volunteers' homes -- they do not have a facility like the SPCA and they do not have any affiliation with any of the clubs or societies in the Okanagan.

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I could care less about the other breeds. The GSD has a reputation. Did you miss that the past 100 times I"ve said it. They have one based on the breeding and testing practices they've followed for the past 100 years. WGSD's have done nothing to prove anything. Flying disc titled, its fun for the dog, but really doesn't test nerve strength courage or intelligence at all. A crazy neurotic mess of a dog would be better at catching flying discs than a well balanced shepherd.

Maybe you also missed Nicole's and others constant comparisons to the GSD, that is why they are being compared, i don't know how much more simply it could be spelled out.

Also when did this turn into nothing but SchH? There is HGH trials too, and those tests were used to develope the breed that is working and saving lives today. But we get the same thing back, excuses and titles mean nothing for what I do, but my dogs can do everything, I know-those arguements are weak, prove it.

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

And I will tell you something else mike'd-
HAVE YOU ever met Fred Lantings?? I HAVE! Have you ever worked with Fred Lantings?? I HAVE!! And he would be horrified at how you are twisting his words- you obviously have never worked with him, or even possible totally read/NOR UNDERSTOOD anything by him.. He states you breed for traits desired, but understanding the total working dog is capable of all sorts of work.

You are very fortunate to have met Fred Lanting in person Borzoid, I have friends who know him personnally and we all understand his writtings and his work with Shepherds. What I find truly amazing is that you have trained so many shepherds and understand them so well, why is it that you would abandon all this for a sporting breed?
Have you ever known Fred Lanting to breed a WGSD? I didn't think so. I understand his views on genetics quite well, but it appears Nicole has never read anything he wrote from the things she posts.We are only pointing out the "here and now" world, not the way it was 50 yrs ago.



Case in point- I had several litters that were out of show parents- top in the show world- litter of 9- 7 ( SEVEN) WERE natural Sch. dogs- one was totally show- and one was a pet by desire of the owner- want more examples???? I had another litter- supposed to be all Sch? police work dogs- everyone show-... Top obedience titles- but all show-... You fail to understand the total make up of the Shepherd, and seriously misunderstand the ability of a shepherd- farm dog, or police, guide dog or therapy, ... The shepherd fits it- and your narrow mindedness is why people do not allow the natural traits the dog of a all well rounded dog.. Maybe your dogs are shy at back firing cars- MINE NEVER WERE..

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Case in point......If I had a GSD who failed to protect the house when someone tried to break in, I would certainly be disappointed. An intelligent dog such as the GSD who doesn't defend loved ones is not worth much in my opinion. I have never owned a shy shepherd in my life and never would. All my dogs were well socialized and friendly. If any of my dogs had shown any sign of aggression, they would not have remained in my home. We tested all our dogs for gunshots,part of our training , so a car backfiring was no big deal. I never had a Shepherd bite, show teeth, raise hackles or hide behind me etc.

Wolfsoul..........I don't think you're getting the point. Pets and apeople have their site on the web and you can check it out. The Humane Society does run it. I don't know the town you're in but if you have no Humane Society I guess we're discussing two different things. We do have a Humane Society but we also have a program called Petsave, they take in abandoned animals and rehome them, they have a no kill policy. But I was talking about the Humane Society's program od "Pets and People"...check out their site and read the test they give.
The only thing we are discussing is the need to have a sound, genetically proven GSD before thinking of breedng. If you breed a shy dog, would you expect to produce great working dogs? Or would you figure on having a potential candidate for service work? This is a pipe dream of the byb breeders. All GSD lovers want is for breeders to be reputable and breed only what would better the breed.
I gave you a site about service dogs to look through, obviously you didn't. The site is called "Our Community service dog forums". If I had the name at my fingertips I would give it to you but I know you can access the site by googling this. I found it last year and found it very informative, if I have time, I will go back and check it out. The site is a real eye opener for people who don't understand service dogs.

Mike you are funny same with you Jack. It is interesting how your posts are now both not about WS's but about me, my choice to breed, and my service dog. VERY INTERESTING. It is also interesting how this is turning into an attack strictly pointed at me instead of a discussion about WS's. And the link you gave to teh GSD forum is not a place I would suggest people go to learn about service dogs. If people want to learn about Service dogs they should visit a site strictly about servcie dogs. One of the best out there is

International Association of Assistance Dog Partners
http://www.iaadp.org

I have many other one if people are interested. It lists all the tasks of different service dogs, list legal issues, gives many many links to other information. This is where peole who are serious about learning about Service Dogs go. Not to a breed specific forum.

As for calling me a BYB that is in your little minds. I KNOW I am not. I KNOW I am doing this for the right reasons and doing this the right way. Whether you two like it or not. I am done trying to help you two learn. You two only want to attack and fight and insult. For me this discussion is over. I have stated the truth, provided proof and the people wanting to truely learn will see that. You on teh other hand just throw insults, attack, condem and provide NO proof to your statements about WS's.

So attack me some more, put down my service dog some more, call me a BYB some more. No one cares anymore. Even me. Took me a while to learn what kind of sad lives you people must be living to keep this going for a year but now instead of being upset with your constant attempts to make me look bad or make the WS look bad I only pitty you and pray that someday you can pick a new hobby that will truely help people. At least my dream(that will soon be a reality) will help people. Maybe someday you can both say the same.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by mike001

Wolfsoul..........I don't think you're getting the point. Pets and apeople have their site on the web and you can check it out. The Humane Society does run it. I don't know the town you're in but if you have no Humane Society I guess we're discussing two different things. We do have a Humane Society but we also have a program called Petsave, they take in abandoned animals and rehome them, they have a no kill policy. But I was talking about the Humane Society's program od "Pets and People"...check out their site and read the test they give.

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I know the founder of Pets and People and the screener of Pets and People and have the forms for Pets and People -- they are strictly a therapy dog program -- visiting senior homes. They have no affiliation with the humane society. You must be visitng the wrong website.

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Maybe you also missed Nicole's and others constant comparisons to the GSD, that is why they are being compared, i don't know how much more simply it could be spelled out.

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So? I compare Belgians to GSDs all the time. What DO you want? What is going to prove to you whatever it is you want to be proved? There is nothing that will prove anything here and you wouldn't be pleased with any "proof" anyways. What is it you want to know?

Nicole, to breed a shepherd is to breed the whole dog, not just something out of one's imagination. We are talking about working dogs, that goes along with breeding, or didn't you know that.
Don't forget you are in Canada, so the sites from the US don't really apply, they have their standards, we have ours. Just like they have their laws and Canada has theirs.
All we asked for were references of where your dog was trained, where it was certified, and discussed genetics. What is the real puzzle to me is how would one get along without a service dog while this dog was whelping, nursing pups and so forth. We have never heard of a service dog being bred, they are always altered before acceptance in a program.
All of these questions were simply questions, yet you call them attacks, that is what puts doubt in my mind.
You never have produced any proof or documentation, and I know you have not taken the trouble to study Fred Lanting on the whole sheperd dog
You have only posted some outdated links that are obsolete today.
And why cut down a forum on service dogs? People on the site seemed very knowledgeable to me and for the ordinairy person it would be a start to educate themselves. Unless they have changed drastically, I enjoyed the write ups immensely last year. I could go back and seek other info, they always provide useful links, or they used to. The Lion's Club of Canada have branches throughout Canada, so they will be able to answer any questions about service dogs as they promote and help all the training facilities.
When someone refuses to discuss what they are stating as proven, then to me it sounds more like someone who is just talking without knowing anything about breeding or service dogs, or the whole dog in general.
I have checked out a few sites that I found were from the US so wasn't really interested.
As for the Genetics about the working GSD like I said, Fred Lanting is a very good starting point. I'll ask again, did he ever breed WGSD's?
He breeds for the betterment of the breed I believe.
I find that reading your last post, you seem to be running away from us finding out the truth, so you accuse us of attacking you , insulting you etc., to me this is a sign of uncertainty and fear of us discovering something we shouldn't. No one is attacking or insulting anyone, we're all just interested in one thing....the working GSD as a whole dog and the standard set out by the parent clubs and the ckc and akc as to what is acceptable for a GSD.

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

save your pity, i surely don't need it

wow, i can only hope the people that follow this thread can see the questions asked and the pity party you throw for yourself everytime you reply with zero answers.

I don't know why its so hard to follow that someone asks a question as to why GSD's are being compared to WGSD's and you've been doing it all along, suddenly we're picking on you.

I don't think anyone not proving their breeding stock should be breeding working dogs PERIOD. If you don't have titles, or have a certified service dog or any of that in your pedigrees, than you are nothing more than a BYB, if that criteria happens to fit you as well, which it apparently does, that really isn't my fault is it?

How exactly do you want me to prove that WGSD's aren't doing everything and more that GSD's are doing? Sure there are a few that are, but the vast majority aren't proving anything, again I don't have to prove a negative. You said you have contact with breeders that have all these police dogs, link them. You have contact with Schutzhund clubs that say they aren't rare and they compete more than we think and do very well or better than GSD's, well give me a link. Two links to the same dogs from 30 years ago doesn't cut it, sorry. That'd be like me showing you a map of the 1700's and saying look England rules most of the world. well yeah it did, a few hundred years ago. I guess that isn't a good analogy cause England actually did what i'm claiming. Very few white's ever have.

you can also keep your little mind comments to yourself. I find it rather funny that you haven't done any discussing yourself for quite a few posts other than hurl insults and try and make yourself feel mentally superior. Be careful that you aren't doing what you claim others are, its in poor taste.

My sad life isn't very sad, i hate to tell you i'm quite happy. As for keeping this going for a year??? time goes by a little quickly for you apparently as i've only been here for a month or two.

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Originally Posted by wolfsoul

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

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Haven't we been thru this before. Yeah, there is a need for service dogs, nobody really "needs" a schutzhund dog. BUT the reason the GSD and all its glory and multi uses and guard, SAR, drug, leader of the blind, capabilities is because the breeding stock was tested and tested and proven and proven before it could be used. THAT IS THE POINT. Schutzhund is a proving ground. When you have dogs that don't have a title in the pedigree for 5,6 or more generations and you have not proven your breeding stock either, what exactly does that show??

I wouldn't be worried about people rejecting your puppies you donate because they're from bite trained parents. That's rediculous. any lower drive puppies that have good temperments will not be turned away. You see testing and proving working stock has allowed us to have a breed that consistently produces dogs that can do anything. Take 10 litters and you'll find a good number of dogs suitable to do any job we need from those litters. That's what testing and proving our stock has done. From partol and military work, bot scent detection and leaders of the blind.

Her getting a title on her dog and proving it as a working dog would do a lot. She'd be proving her working stock. a dog from 30 years ago means nothing. She or anyone else making these claims of how WGSD's are healthier, have more intelligence and more drive could hold some water if she'd title her ONE dog, and others would do the same. They could show consistency in their litters, in their breeding stock, just like the GSD's have done. (and I'm not talking AKC one's that also have proven nothing, sure you get a few here and there that can do something, but not many)

You can compare belgians to GSD's I see them working and proving themselves all the time. I'd be happy to hear your comparisons, i'll give you mine. I have something to compare them too, cause i've seen them and people are proving their working stock, they aren't even in the same situation as the WGSD's where they make all claims and have no proof.