Do you approve?

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Originally posted by Kfamr
If anyone is willing to answer my questions with an answer that makes sense, i'll be willing to answer any of yours the best I can.


PCB.. How can you say that no one in your family would ever do that? Have you ever stopped to think, maybe, just maybe they're scared to? Having a relative with such a strong disbelief against something surely would not make me want to come open with them. I doubt you'd be able to guide anyone away from homosexuality. It's a natural feeling.

Why can't everyone just "leave it up to 'God'" to judge Homosexuals? Afterall, according to some, he's the one who thinks it's a 'sin', people are just his followers.

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I know that for a fact because they ALL talk against homosexuality themselves. And trust me, not everyone in my family is religious. Some of my cousins don't know a single thing in their religion, yet they speak against homosexuality. I know my family, and I know how they feel about things. They are very open in what they disagree with me in and very open in what they agree with me in. They know how I feel about things, and I know how they feel about things. AND.........I was talking about my direct family in this, all of whom I know very well, inside/out. They are more against such issues than I am.

No one has an answer to my question?

But People! NONE OF THIS MATTERS!!! The United States is a Constitution free OF and free FROM Religion. Religious arguments do NOT apply to this.

What if, for instance, the government of the US decided to follow Christian rules. Well a big ole see ya to Jewish Americans, Muslim Americans, Pagan Americans, Athiest Americans, etc. And all the way around. Our country can't and should not be lawed by a religion. These arguments are all religious. A church or synagog or whatever can refuse to marry a gay if they want (but you'll find if you look around that many churches are finding it in their faiths to embrace homosexuals). But the government can't.

All the religious arguments in this thread are beautiful and of deep conviction. Poppy, I know in my heart that you believe completly in everything you say and to you it is truth- same for Kevin and the rest. But the fact is, they are YOUR truths. You can't impose them on everyone. You can't speak to me as if they are certanity because MY truths are different than YOUR truths. Why can't we all learn to accept this?

Look around you at non-secular governments. They fall. Their countries are in tourmoil and they will never be peaceful. Why? Because Religion is too volatile. It is personal and should be between a person and their God- not in the laws of a nation. There are too many faiths in the US for that kind of ruling. I do not want to live under a religious government. EVER. They always fail and they always oppress members of their society.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I know that for a fact because they ALL talk against homosexuality themselves. And trust me, not everyone in my family is religious. Some of my cousins don't know a single thing in their religion, yet they speak against homosexuality. I know my family, and I know how they feel about things. They are very open in what they disagree with me in and very open in what they agree with me in. They know how I feel about things, and I know how they feel about things. AND.........I was talking about my direct family in this, all of whom I know very well, inside/out. They are more against such issues than I am.

No one has an answer to my question?

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I've known Homosexuals who've spoken against Homosexuality yet later came out and regretted everything they did. They did it as a cover up, because they were around such close-minded people and were afraid to come out.

I think, if I remember correctly, a special on MTV aired with one man who was in that exact situation.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I am well aware of that, but you can get birth defects in other ways TOO, so my point in saying that was, that isn't a valid argument.

A relative doesn't rate higher on the forgiveness scale. I never said I would forgive them. I would forgive them if they LEFT the action. I would forgive ANY gay if they left their sin and repented. Honestly, if I had a gay relative who was insisting on his/her sins, I wouldn't feel the same about them. The love that exists amongst relatives would still be there, but quite frankly, I wouldn't feel the same about them. I wouldn't.

AND you never answered my question. Why is it not discriminatory on the government's behalf to ban marrying between close blood relatives if THEY wish to marry the one they love, yet it is discriminitory on the government's behlaf if they want to ban gays from marrying the ones they love? Why why why. Both are condemned by religion. Why is it ok to force that opinion on the non-religious, while it isn't ok to enforce the gay law. I want to see an answer to this. An answer that makes sense.

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I don't have an answer that makes sense, but I totally hear what you are saying. I'm for gay marriage, yet I'm against polygamy and marriage within family members.

Whom I to say what's right and wrong? I am ok with homosexuality, so gay marriage is ok to me. Yet, I'm not ok with incest, so those marriages aren't ok. They are both moral issues.

My only defense is that it is scientifically proven that children resulted incest can have birth defects.

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Originally posted by 2kitties
But People! NONE OF THIS MATTERS!!! The United States is a Constitution free OF and free FROM Religion. Religious arguments do NOT apply to this.

What if, for instance, the government of the US decided to follow Christian rules. Well a big ole see ya to Jewish Americans, Muslim Americans, Pagan Americans, Athiest Americans, etc. And all the way around. Our country can't and should not be lawed by a religion. These arguments are all religious. A church or synagog or whatever can refuse to marry a gay if they want (but you'll find if you look around that many churches are finding it in their faiths to embrace homosexuals). But the government can't.

All the religious arguments in this thread are beautiful and of deep conviction. Poppy, I know in my heart that you believe completly in everything you say and to you it is truth- same for Kevin and the rest. But the fact is, they are YOUR truths. You can't impose them on everyone. You can't speak to me as if they are certanity because MY truths are different than YOUR truths. Why can't we all learn to accept this?

Look around you at non-secular governments. They fall. Their countries are in tourmoil and they will never be peaceful. Why? Because Religion is too volatile. It is personal and should be between a person and their God- not in the laws of a nation. There are too many faiths in the US for that kind of ruling. I do not want to live under a religious government. EVER. They always fail and they always oppress members of their society.

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I understand what you're saying, but when the government shouldn't be able to force the ban of gay marriages on people, why can they force the ban of marriages between relatives? Why is that ok? They are BOTH religiously immoral. Why is one ok and not the other? That is my question. They can both be said as wrong from a scientific point of view, but.....what happened to freedom of choice, when it comes to this issue?

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I understand what you're saying, but when the government shouldn't be able to force the ban of gay marriages on people, why can they force the ban of marriages between relatives? Why is that ok? They are BOTH religiously immoral.

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Yes, but besides religious reasons, what's a reason for not allowing Gays to marry?

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Originally posted by 2kitties
But People! NONE OF THIS MATTERS!!! The United States is a Constitution free OF and free FROM Religion. Religious arguments do NOT apply to this.

What if, for instance, the government of the US decided to follow Christian rules. Well a big ole see ya to Jewish Americans, Muslim Americans, Pagan Americans, Athiest Americans, etc. And all the way around. Our country can't and should not be lawed by a religion. These arguments are all religious. A church or synagog or whatever can refuse to marry a gay if they want (but you'll find if you look around that many churches are finding it in their faiths to embrace homosexuals). But the government can't.

All the religious arguments in this thread are beautiful and of deep conviction. Poppy, I know in my heart that you believe completly in everything you say and to you it is truth- same for Kevin and the rest. But the fact is, they are YOUR truths. You can't impose them on everyone. You can't speak to me as if they are certanity because MY truths are different than YOUR truths. Why can't we all learn to accept this?

Look around you at non-secular governments. They fall. Their countries are in tourmoil and they will never be peaceful. Why? Because Religion is too volatile. It is personal and should be between a person and their God- not in the laws of a nation. There are too many faiths in the US for that kind of ruling. I do not want to live under a religious government. EVER. They always fail and they always oppress members of their society.

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i agree 100%!!

Honestly Pops, I don't think they should ban marriage between relatives. Lord knows I find it vile to imagine that kind of relationship with any of my family members, but it isn't my place to legislate my morality over someone else.
There's nothing we can do about plain old stupidity ya know!:p

But, that said, there would have to be some kind of regulation on their reproduction. It is cruel to their offspring to allow them to purposefully procreate. I think of it sort of like crime- bear with me I'll get to the point.. We have laws against crimes like murder because they hurt other people. Knowingly procreating in a way that will harm the child is harmful to another person and, therefore, a crime in my mind. Like women who drink alcohol or do drugs while pregnant. It is becoming illegal more and more because it is a crime. The purposeful procreation between close relatives is sort of like that.

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Originally posted by Kfamr
Yes, but besides religious reasons, what's a reason for not allowing Gays to marry?

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Its against the nature of man and woman. You can find scientific research approving of that and disapproving of that. Same with the marriage of kin, so I don't see that as a valid argument. I figure none of you have an answer to my question. Anyway, I have friends coming over, so I'll be gone for quite some time. I'm glad everyone can debate peacefully without hurting each other. Remember, while you all argue..............not to break the friendship. ^_^

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Its against the nature of man and woman. You can find scientific research approving of that and disapproving of that. Same with the marriage of kin, so I don't see that as a valid argument. I figure none of you have an answer to my question. Anyway, I have friends coming over, so I'll be gone for quite some time. I'm glad everyone can debate peacefully without hurting each other. Remember, while you all argue..............not to break the friendship. ^_^

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Eh, that doesn't make sense to me, but whatever ya say pcb! :)

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Originally posted by popcornbird
I understand what you're saying, but when the government shouldn't be able to force the ban of gay marriages on people, why can they force the ban of marriages between relatives? Why is that ok? They are BOTH religiously immoral. Why is one ok and not the other? That is my question. They can both be said as wrong from a scientific point of view, but.....what happened to freedom of choice, when it comes to this issue?

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Congrats on you impending Quadrapillarhood.....


http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/?article=law&refid=009

Both are religiously immoral but marriages between
family members is prohibited more by natural laws than religious laws. "Royal" families were decimated by intermarriage..Those laws were put in place by the ruling families themselves..After a few generations the 'lineage' crumbled upon itself...practicality, and the desire for families to keep power were more important than religious convictions...

Science says that same sex relationships are against the basic rules of procreation...because we are not animals our desires and needs as people
come before the basic desire to rut.

Animals do 'it' instinctually, we look for a partners from the standpoint of what makes us comfortable and what we find attractive in another being....

Intermarriage had more of a consequntial effect on the products of such a union....e.g. Birth Defects.......a same sex marriage has no 'products', but the pair has to be socially and physically responsible to each other....when people get sloppy they run into problems.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Its against the nature of man and woman. You can find scientific research approving of that and disapproving of that. Same with the marriage of kin, so I don't see that as a valid argument. I figure none of you have an answer to my question. Anyway, I have friends coming over, so I'll be gone for quite some time. I'm glad everyone can debate peacefully without hurting each other. Remember, while you all argue..............not to break the friendship. ^_^

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I think if you ask any gay person, they will tell you it feels natural to them and that being with someone of the opposite sex feels unnatural to them. That goes angainst their nature.

I have to agree with 2K, it grosses me out to think of a brother and a sister marrying and having sex, but they should really have the right to do so if they wish. No children should be allowed from the relaltionship, but I also think that someone who knowingly spreads aids or hepatitis to anyone should be punished as well. Any two consenting adults should be with whomever they choose. I personally don't have a problem with multiple spouses as long as they're adults and aren't manipulated or forced. I would never do it, but they are welcome to if it floats their boat and harms no one.

Well I was gone for hours and other than *that shouldn't be banned either*, I haven't gotten any other answer.

I hope you all understand my point now, my reasons for being against it. Just as marriage between siblings disgusts you (and it disgusts me too ewww), the same way, the act of homosexuality disgusts me. Its something I cannot accept, just as I cannot accept marriage between close blood relatives.

The reason I think its *ok* to make a law against this, is the same reason I'm ok with the law against marriage between blood relatives. Exactly the same reason, as I see them as very similar issues. AND, if its ok for gays to do whatever they want without government interference, than there should be protests against the law banning marriage between relatives too. After all, it isn't fair to allow one and ban the other. Either they should both be outlawed, or both allowed.

Micki, I think if you'd ask a child molestor why he molested a child, he would say those feelings came to him naturally. Regardless, it is wrong. Those are not feelings that come to us by our nature or instincts, but feelings that Satan puts in our minds and makes us think they are natural. This is my opinion, and I put this example of marriage between siblings to make it clear to you all WHY I feel this way. I do think it is clear enough now, because no one has had an answer.

I am over with this thread.........I don't want to waste my last posts to 4000 :D in arguing with people I consider my close friends (yes I consider many of you very close friends). I've gotten my point through, and you have all gotten your points through. I think we should end this subject now, because it is getting no where. I respect you all for who you are, and respect that you have your own beliefs and faiths. I hope you can understand now, why I feel the way I do. I see this act as unnatural and wrong (from a non-religious point of view) and if you ask me why, taking religion out of it, its for exactly the same reason that I can't accept marriage between kin as right. Its just something that I find vile and unacceptable. Again, this is my opinion, and I'm done with this thread. :)

You know...I do have a dear friend who has romantic/sexual relations with his sister...and as much as I wouldn't consider it...he really loves her, and I wouldn't deny him that. It's hard for me to fathom, but if he truly decided he wanted to marry her, I don't know that I could bring myself to tell him that it's wrong.

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Originally posted by popcornbird
Well I was gone for hours and other than *that shouldn't be banned either*, I haven't gotten any other answer.

I hope you all understand my point now, my reasons for being against it. Just as marriage between siblings disgusts you (and it disgusts me too ewww), the same way, the act of homosexuality disgusts me. Its something I cannot accept,

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what exactly are you looking for an answer to?

just because you an't accept it and it discusts you doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people what they should accept or be discusted by. just becasue they get married and live happily together doesn't mean that you're suddenly going to turn gay or straight marriage is suddenly going to be less 'special' thanks to Britney Spears and other hollywood figures marriage is realy just a big joke to everybody