White Shepherds

You are wrong or misinformed about therapy dogs not needing a cgc for therapy work. Without a cgc the ST.John ambulance will not accept them for the course. This I can definitely vouch for as I am an adjucator for therapy dogs.
I get the feeling that when Nicole gets trapped under her misquotes she pretends it's the other person who wants to hate. This just overflows with self doubt on her part or the fact that she can't answer the questions truthfully so she changes the subject to get off the trail when it gets too rough. We are searching only for the truth and not trying to hate a breed. Although the breed had been eradicated some yrs ago because of the problems, some BYB's chose to bring it back as a novelty and a way to make $$$$.
No reputable breeder who is trying to better the breed would ever breed Whites.
This is something like the new trend for those "special breeds", like the cockapoos, labradoodles. chi poos etc. This is simply a byb dream of $$$$$.
If and when I read "real" proof dated in the present and not 30 yrs ago, I might consider reading it, otherwise as Jackfrost said...it is a waste of time.

Mike you are so funny. If you choose to take the time to either one:read the entire thread and check out teh links provided or two do some research for yourself you will see what you said is false. NO therapy dog has to have a CGC. How do I know this because I have several friends who have therapy dogs. ALl they had to do was take a test and it wasn't a CGC. Just a quick test to check the temperment of the dog. That is all. AS for White shepehrds I have provided links, and proof. I provided those sites because they showed many types of jobs the whites do. Which meant I had less links to post. I am not going to sit here all day finding things for you for you just to sit there and say it is a fluke. Sorry. Not worth my time.

AND the funniest part of the post of yours(had tears running down my eyes I was laughing so hard) is where you say they were eradicated. LOLOLOL that is so funny. That never happened. Didn't even come close to happening. But you of course will never beleive that. Keep the jokes coming. I am enjoying them.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by mike001

You are wrong or misinformed about therapy dogs not needing a cgc for therapy work. Without a cgc the ST.John ambulance will not accept them for the course.

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St John's ambulance is one of the MANY therapy groups, and it is not found in many many places. If you contact other therapy groups you will find that the majority of them do not need a CGN or CGC, but rather just to pass their own screening process. Pets and People is the group my dog's mother went through and she went on to be a therapy dog at 18 months old with only her Canadian Championship.

I completely agree Nicole -- I know and know of so many dogs who are working or show titled that should not be bred.

I know someone who breeds tollers and she got all of her dogs' Chs by pinning them against eachother in the ring, thus giving them points. Easy to do when you have an uncommon breed in the ring -- I could do it with my Belgians if I wanted to. One time the judge said "none of these dogs deserve ribbons," which is almost NEVER done, and she excused them all. Another time, in the group ring, the judge asked "why are there two goldens in the ring?" proving just what kind of show quality her dogs were.

I know a schutzhund/drug and bom detection./french ring trainer in Alberta. His multi titled schutzhund dog tried to eat my dog and then came after me. My co-breeder was in the schutzhund club for years and witnessed things that almost turned her off the sport. You get the dogs that think of it as a fun game, and then you get the dogs that are serious about it. She'd seen people be attacked more than once unprovocatively by these dogs, who were probably titled. I know a dog with her TT and CGC who was tested for French ring and tested well -- she took after a man who was wearing a puffy jacket in the winter time and latched on to his arm. I knew a rotti lab mix with his CGN who attacked and almost killed my friend -- literally almost ripped her head off, she was lucky most of her throat was intact enough that she didn't bleed to death.

Goes to show you that a title does not prove conformation, working ability, temperament, and especially health.

Wolfsoul you are soooo right. I would never say titles are bad to have. They are great. Like you said before it shows you do things with your dog and also shows your dog can do those things. But none of them, as you said, means a dog should or should not be bred.
Nicole

Makes me also sad to see you joke about the seriousness of the problem. That is what I meant by changing the subject when things get too close to home for comfort. Why can't you just answer like an adult like the rest of us? Of course you might be just a teenager, I totally forgot about that, and teenagers are so slow to understand sometimes. But so far the links provided are outdated and prove nothing.
This only reinforces my belief that you are not being truthful with your posts and are in fact hiding something.
As of now, my opinion is that you really don't understand anything about what you are discussing, nor do you understand the WGSD and the problems associated with it. You can't even be sure you will be able to breed your dog as infertility in females and males is one of the main problems.

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

Mike I give up with you. LOL Infertility is not a problem is white shepherds. Never has been. You keep making all these claims about them having this or that problem but yet you provied NO proof. We have provided some but you just make accusations and provide NO proof. As for hiding anything I have nothing to hide. Never have. I just choose not to state the answers Over and Over and Over agian because you chose to say it is a fluke or those are too old. lol Her eis a question for you. If those dogs are so old and the White shepherd was eradicated, AS you claim(LOLOLOLOL), then why were they so able to do those things when as you claim they first started out? You are the one saying they are prone to health problems(Prove it with links to teh genetic tests saying so) you are teh one saying they can't do those things and never have so prove that. I have shown they have. Only shown a small number so people can see the many things they can do, but at least I have shown something. You on teh other hand have shown NOTHING except that you believe in wives tails.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by mike001

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

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Where did I say CGC isn't requied for St John's ambulance? I don't know of their practises, all I know is that St John's Ambulance is not the only therapy organization and I've never heard of another organization that used it as a requirement rather than it's own screening process, like the organization my dog's mother went through, Pets and People.

I have a service dog, and yes, I do prefer to call her a therapy dog. When I call her a service dog I feel as though people look down on me as someone who "needs service." Makes me sound helpless. I'd rather she be my therapy dog, as that is what she is to me -- she calms and reassures me, and provides me with the mental therapy that I need.

I soooo know what you mean. When I have to explain about Sheena I hate the pitty look they give me. Also Wolfsould could you empty your in box I need to pm you somthing.
Nicole

I have two therapy dogs- and neither were required to have their CGC prior. Depends on where you live etc. Also a Therapy dog is different than Therapy dog International. I chose not to list my dogs in TDI because it puts my dogs on a national registry, and I am not willing to travel to other places, as they already go to two hospitals locally.

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Goes to show you that a title does not prove conformation, working ability, temperament, and especially health.

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You're right a title isn't the be all and end all, BUT let me ask you a question.

How did the GSD gain its reputation as a service dog, for detection, SAR, military and police work, guardians of the home, loyal family companions, leaders of the blind, etc?? Thru careful breeding and testing the breeding stock and proving them. For GSD's it involves schutzhund that proves the breed worthiness. Maybe proves is the wrong word, but i'm sure you know what I mean. They didn't get their reputation by just breeding what every breeder wanted to consider a good dog. They were tested and judged against a standard. Ch show ratings don't mean a hill of beans as GSD breeding is working dog breeding or it is not GSD breeding. As said by the founder of the breed.

My point about the CGC, CGN, TDI, etc are certificates, yes they show you've done something with your dog. You can argue title, certifciate whatever, it doesn't matter. My point is that the tests are very basic and prove little of the capabilities of the dog. My intent is not to demean the title, but breed clubs have specific tests that show the drive and temperment of the breed and what they are capable of. The CGC, etc aren't one of those tests used to test and prove breeding stock, that is my point.

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My breed's variety (the groenendael) suffers alot of hate and disrespect in the schutzhund and french ring venues because it is a black dog.

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I have seen and been a part of training in your breed and many other black dogs, I don't really see the disrespect and hate towards black dogs like you claim. If we had white one's coming thru that wouldn't matter either. As i've said before its the BS I don't like. and there are what 4-5 or more posts since i've asked some specific questions and still I get words and excuses. Where are all these WGSD's that are working. Therapy dogs and service dogs are worlds apart, i'm not going to spell out the differences here.

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When the rumors are proven false with genetic testing and the dogs have proven to do the same as the "proper colors" but a few still choose to spread lies and hate about them then it is just racism. Some people need something to hate and take their anger and fustration on. So base their excuses on the color of a dog.

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Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with the color. Genetic testing doesn't prove anything about the working ability of the dog. I'm not spreading lies, i'm not spreading hate. If a very small handful of dogs from decades ago is all you have to prove that they're working dogs, its pitiful at best.

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The white Shepherd is just that. A white Shepehrd. Anything a GSD can do a White Shepehrd can do. That is a fact. Genetic testing proved all teh old wives tails about whites to be false. It has been proven that Whites are just as healthy, intelligent, trainable and so forth as a GSD. Those are facts. If they choose to ignore facts let them.

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So prove it, i'm still waiting. What titles do your dogs have? What have they proven? Being a therapy dog going to nursing homes proves nothing but a dog with stable temperment. You want to claim that wgsd's can do anything a GSD can do, then prove it. Get them on the field, test their nerve, test their courage, test their strenght, test their willingness to work alone and with a handler, test their physical attributes, do something. This talk is tiring. Again, you said you have lots of clubs that say they aren't uncommon, show me one. I've been around a while and been involved with people that have been even longer and like I said before there have been more JRT's, ACD's and Corgi's proving themselves on the field that WGSD's

So again test your breeding stock, quit making excuses. Just because some dogs have titles that are questionable doesn't make the titles wrong. It makes the unethical people that are skirting rules and breeding standards that are. The tests are still very real and very valuable, using that as an excuse not to do them is just laziness and unethical by any standards.

Again, if you're going to make claims, you better have something to back them up with. 2 WGSD's that were on police forces 20 years ago, or a WGSD that made SchH III 30 years ago is, like it was said before, an anomoly, a rarity, not common place. While i'm living in the dark ages, some of us should come back to reality.

Jackfrost- the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..
Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.
ESA's are not recognized and have no access. But there is definitely a place for them in a person's home.
I don't know why you would think people give you pitying looks if you use a certified service dog, I see people using them and have yet to see anyone do this. Maybe you are self concious and imagine this.

Nicole, as far as giving you proof, if you were truly going to breed your dog, you would have read about infertility in White Shepherds. When you provide proof that is of this year or at least starting at the yr, 2000, I will send my proof. I have all those old relics on hand myself, they just don't hold a drop of water anymore. Today's breeders are educating themselves in the today world, not the past.

Since Boxing day is for friends and families, I think I will go and wait for my guests instead of wasting time on a useless debate.

Mike where is the proof they are infertile? You don't have any that is why you can't post any. White shepehrds are no more infertile then GSD's. You are funny. As for pittying looks. Anyone that has had a service dog knows what I mean. Not everyone gives them but some do. Like I said you make all these claims and provide nothing to back it up. I provide links, proof even a link to the WS genetics program. What have you provided?
Nicole

I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund? Heck, I AM breeding for schutzhund and not only are my dogs untitled in it, but I haven't even done any schutzhund yet.

There really is alot of prejiduce against the groenendael in protection sports, and the black GSD for that matter too -- we recently had a discussion on the Belgian list about GSDs vs Belgians, and the topic of black GSDs came up. It interests me that in working venues people can be so iffy about colours. If the dog can work, who cares? Even if you are right and the American white shepherd breed as a whole can not do schutzhund (even though that is not it's original purpose, such as your comparison with jack russells -- though they can do it, most do not simply because it isn't what it's intended to do), would you be so prejiduced against individual white dogs that do do schutzhund? Or is it just against the ones doing their original purpose, therapy work? The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

My inbox is empty Nicole!

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Originally Posted by mike001

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.

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My dog not only "calms and reassures" me which can bring me down from a panic attack, but she also detects any signs of psychotic episodes and immediatly brings me home -- the last time I had a bad episode I jumped into the lake in the frezing winter. Psychological disabilities are just as crippling as physical ones. I am off my old medications now and have not needed her for a few months though I still take her out on any days that feel off to me, just incase.