I can hardly believe this of American troops..... both men & women.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...tos/index.html
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I can hardly believe this of American troops..... both men & women.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...tos/index.html
This one had me puzzled too....
But I do want to say something, But,in no way does it condone their behavior....
When you look at the pics it's something you would see from a college frat/hazing party....At least that's my first impression...
"Line up all the new people get them naked and let's get them initiated...Humiliate them a little and we'll let them be...."
No reports of people dying or being hurt....
Soon after Baghdad fell there were some video clips of the Republican Guard (lolol, Republican Guard.........what would the Democratic Guard be like??)pushing people off of a roof, with their hands tied behind their backs, men having their arms broken by laying them across two bricks and whacking their forearms with a club and my 'personal favorite'-- using a pair of scissors to cut a tongue off.....
Those pictures are going to make the US look like a bunch of cruel people, But I never heard a peep from any other government about the atrocities that were commmited by the Iraqis, to the Iraqis..
So, when I see the world gasp at what some of our soldiers have done in Iraq, I can laugh at the people pointing their fingers at us and question their point of view when the REALLY GROSS POOP was going on...........
It's all anti-American bile from all the countries who treat their citizens far worse than a US military unit would...And if they are so kind, understanding and respectful of Human Rights, where are their soldiers??
Yep, It's pretty disheartening to see stuff like that, but look at the Killing Fields, Ethnic Cleansing, the Holocaust...
Me? I'd be first in line to jump in a pile of naked men.....It sure beats having my tongue cut off with rusty scissors.
:eek:
On the news this morning I heard that there are 8 Marines being court martialed for their actions.
Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
Yep, It's pretty disheartening to see stuff like that, but look at the Killing Fields, Ethnic Cleansing, the Holocaust...
Me? I'd be first in line to jump in a pile of naked men.....It sure beats having my tongue cut off with rusty scissors.
:eek:
I'm sure you would.:rolleyes:
but, because the "enemy " acts like this does not mean that
Americans act that way too. We are supposed to be bringing
"enlightened" democrative values to their culture.
RICHARD,
AMEN TO THAT!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
I'm sure you would.:rolleyes:
but, because the "enemy " acts like this does not mean that
Americans act that way too. We are supposed to be bringing
"enlightened" democrative values to their culture.
I have to disagree with you on that point.
Humiliation is not acceptable, but far better than
mutilation or death.
The clips I told you about will make you sick...
something about watching an arm snap gives me the willies...I'll look them up and get you the address....
It wasn't acceptable but you can't blame the president for this.......look at the roots...you'll find the answer there.
They made me angry because all that does it make the Iraqis hate us more. You know...blame the whole for the actions of a few to make yourself look better than you are.
I must admit, this whole thing does really make me feel
embarressed by our troops's actions.
The only "explanation" I can think of is that war itself makes
mankind a little crazy. People become dehumanized in the
conflict & killing.
I read that........and saw the pictures, which made me sick to the stomach. I can't help but say I was shocked and incredibly disgusted by the actions of the troops. Shame on them.
Amen to jumping into a pile of naked men????;)Quote:
Originally posted by moosmom
RICHARD,
AMEN TO THAT!!!
Not my cup of tea.:eek:
We have commited far worse crimes during a military action.
In WWII our answer to knocking out ball bearing factories in Germany was to fly B24 bombers and drop TONS of bombs onto a
city.....I am sure that those men thought about and quickly forgot the innocent people under their wings. War crime???
Maybe.
Google My Lai and William Calley, From Europe you'll time travel 25 years into the future and land in Viet Nam.....
War Crime?
Yes.
Let's move ahead- we end up in Iraq at the front door of a factory where we land a cruise missle on a building full of people.
People put there be some goofy dictator who has thumbed his nose at us and the rest of the world..
War Crime?
Blame THAT one on the other team.
Pride goeth before the fall.....Saddam landed so hard he ended up in a hole in the ground..
All in all I probably would be a little pissed off if I had to play be the rules while I have some monsters trying to kill me.
And I wonder how much I could take of some 'man' yelling at me to kiss his a**, telling me to ---- my mother and some other choice sex acts.......It's bad enough that they were shooting at them a little while ago...Now these soldiers have to put up with some face to face time with them...There ain't nothing worse than a sore loser. There is a film clip of some Iraqi spewing this crap at soldiers, I saw it.
Being spit, pissed on, bitten, threatened and having crap flung at you isn't fun, especially when you left your home behind to do this.
Listen to every story very carefully, don't believe everything you read...
Just as the acts of these few soldiers don't represent the bulk of our armed forces, the 'insurgents' don't represent the citizen's of Iraq......
Yeppers,
I am mad about this story, I wasn't there so I have to go by the photos......not a good sight......and I don't condone it...
You have to remember that these prisoners KNOW they will not be killed while in custody.....It's not the American way..
But If you aren't pointing a gun at some 19 year old Marine from TwoTramp, Texas you ain't gonna have your naked *** flashed across the planet on websites in every country..
"Hey, isn't that Ali from the Mosque??? He said he was going to fight the Americans.....'
"Yes, that's him! At least he's still alive, Saddam would have killed him for being captured..."
Wow...........I just read deeper into the article. It says that a British soldier urinated on a prisoner. I cannot BELIEVE they would do that! Sickening. Absolutely sickening. Such a shame. :(
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in548570.shtml
After you check this article out look at the link at the bottom of the page about the reaction to the 'torture' pics in the Arab world..
It's the same old BS.......
Propaganda on both sides, the American press plasters the pictures all over and the Arab world just sit on their hands and complain, complain, complain.
Al-Jazeera anyone?
They liken this incident to what Saddam was doing, but what is THEIR FIX FOR IT? They never bothered to help their brothers, just around the corner when they needed assistance......Saddam was in power for 30 years.
Yes, the story is shocking about what those prisoners went thru
but judging from some of the stories I have heard about -stoning women for infidelity, mutilations as the penalties for committing crimes and some of the other stuff that goes on in the 'ARAB WORLD"
Isn't it funny that some people see a mirror and others just see a pane of glass when it comes to certain things.
I wonder what those same "Joes" that think the US is terrible think about homicide bombers and terrorists......
You'll hear the same yadda, yadda about the "occupiers, the occupation, palestine, Israel and more horse puckey.
It's the drama queen syndrome-the more you cry and moan about something, anything-the more people will look at you and say, "oh, that's terrible......."
It's more than politics, it's common sense......and I don't see too much of that in some places on the planet.
PCB,
The British army have their own investigation going on over
these allegations. It's just sickening.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3675723.stm
The abuse of prisoners is inexcusable, but what infuriates me is that when the offenders go to trial by courts martial, the media will not be there to close the loop on the story. By then it will be old news and not worth the headline. The atrocities make the US soldier in the field look bad, but the media will not stick around to see the justice meted out at the end of the day. It's just not newsworthy.
Our troops made fun of the enemy troops and humiliated them. Not good judgement and should be punished.
BUT..... the other side of my brain can't help but see burnt bodies of Civilian Contractors drug through the streets and hung from bridges and dismembered.
Who's the animal?
here's another tidbit...heard on the news today....
Three Afghani girls, around the age of 8 years old were poisoned
with arsenic because they attended school...
:(
I have tried to find a link to the film clip I mentioned in an earlier post..
http://www.hootinan.com/?entry=1686_..._Torture_Video
The link to the clip is no longer vaild.....but the descriptions of the content should be enough.
There can be NO excuse for this kind of behavior.Period.
Posting what others do or haven't done, does not make
these actions defensible or excuseable. The U S is going to
have to start all over in defining themselves to the people
their supposed to be helping set free.
Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
There can be NO excuse for this kind of behavior.Period.
Posting what others do or haven't done, does not make
these actions defensible or excuseable.
I never defended or exciused anyone......just wanted to bring up the differences on how the news is interpreted ........
Funny, the A rab League was offended when they saw the pics of the prison, but THEIR silence was DEAFENING when it's their own people doing it to each other........That's pretty sad....
No wonder they haven't moved their people out of mud huts in 2000 years.
I don't think anyone is disputing what these soldiers did was inexcusable. My problem with the whole thing is that the entire world is taking what a few soldiers have done and villianized the entire U.S. military. There are no decent soldiers that are not appalled by their comrades' actions, but, Europe and the Middle East don't report that. We're just the evil U.S.
A former Iraqi prisoner is quoted to have said that he 'would rather be tortured by Saddam' than to be made to strip in front of American men and women since nudity is verboten in their culture.
I found that to be a very interesting bit of knowledge....
We just have to invent a Nudie Bomb, drop it over the Middle East and while everyone scrambles to find clothes...............
First we have to get it OK'ed by John Ashcroft...
Then there is the prudish John Ashcroft, who makes us laugh. This is an Attorney General so ill at ease with nudity that he ordered a bare-breasted female statue, Spirit of Justice, to be covered up in the Justice Department press room, lest the country's chief law enforcement officer be seen by the world with two large iron nipples as a backdrop.
I just read this on CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html
Apparently some of the lawyers for the military people who
are involved in this scandal say that the troops were just
following orders & that this treatment is part of a systematic
approach to interrogation of prisoners.
I'm amazed at what sickening thoughts your mind has the ability to think. Really, I am amazed.Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
A former Iraqi prisoner is quoted to have said that he 'would rather be tortured by Saddam' than to be made to strip in front of American men and women since nudity is verboten in their culture.
I found that to be a very interesting bit of knowledge....
We just have to invent a Nudie Bomb, drop it over the Middle East and while everyone scrambles to find clothes...............
As to humiliation being better than death, I'd like to tell you, I would take death 1000 times over this humiliation of sexual abuse. When you die, you are gone from this world and on to the next. When you are abused and humiliated, its something you will live with for the rest of your life. Humiliation better than death? Yeah right!
Just look at the pictures in the slideshow on this page. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/ This is justified behavior? Really, get a grip on reality. Comparing it to what the Iraqis did doesn't make it right. They are both wrong. They are both war criminals, and they all deserve to be brought to justice. That woman in the pictures has the most evil face I have ever seen. Try convincing the Arab world that this war was to *free* them now. It isn't going to work.
Jeez,Quote:
Originally posted by popcornbird
I'm amazed at what sickening thoughts your mind has the ability to think. Really, I am amazed.
I figured you would have known the movie I was talking about....
http://www.roogulator.esmartweb.com/sf/nudebomb.htm
I don't see you as a fan of farce, though.
--------------
Can you PLEASE prove we go somewhere else when we die?
--------------
Again, WHERE DID I SAY IT WAS JUSTIFIED BEHAVIOR???
The comparison was to show how the Mulsim world WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE any HUMAN RIGHTS violations that they have happened in the Middle Eastern countries. If you can quote me where I said that it's justified, I will be more that happy to apologize to you.
We'll never convince the Arab world about anything. They have their minds made up about their place in the world. They choose to inflict barbaric punishments on people who break the "law", and anyone who questions those laws is automatically an infidel...
I have already seen the pictures-what good does it do to post them again??? I already said that it wasn't right.....
Here's a tidbit of common sense that my mom taught me a while back.....See if you can follow the logic....
"Jail is for everyone."
Now if you had behaved yourself and not run around yelling, "Jihad, Occupation" or picked up a gun and turned it against another human being, chances are you would NOT BE IN JAIL OR PRISON. Not to say that it's OK to get punked by an American soldier,
I am just saying that If you do something stupid and get sent to jail or prison, half the problem is you getting there.
--------------------------------
What do you have to say about the three girls who were poisoned for attending school???
And last but not least.....
I seem to keep amazing you......ergo, in order not to be amazed, ignore my posts.
----------------------------------
Liz
The thing about following orders is HORSECRAP.
ANY soldier can refuse to follow an illegal order.
If a soldier does not have the common sense to question an order, they deserve to suffer the consequences.
Usually the way it goes. From the people I've heard interviewed, it is NOT commonplace and standard procedure, quite the opposite. One guy I heard said that the way this broke was the someone in the platoon received the email and had a bout of conscience and turned the disc into commanding officers and the investigating committee.Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
I just read this on CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html
Apparently some of the lawyers for the military people who
are involved in this scandal say that the troops were just
following orders & that this treatment is part of a systematic
approach to interrogation of prisoners.
I hate it when people try and pass the buck. I know that the female general in charge of the prison is up for court martial also.
You know very well that I think that is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard of. That still does not make what the troops did right. Just because there are evil people in the Muslim world doing such evil things, doesn't mean all Muslims are like that, nor does it mean its something taught in our religion. Its not. The people who do these things can rot in Hell. They've destroyed the image of our faith, and destroyed the image and lives of the entire Muslim world. Do you think I would approve of what they do just because they claim to be Muslim? NEVER! At the same time, the actions of these troops does not mean all of the troops are like that, nor does it mean that's what they are taught to do. Would I justify them just because they are American, and the fact that I'm an American too? NEVER! I stand for justice, and when injustice is being done, it doesn't matter if the ones committing it are Muslim or Christian or Jew, or Hindu, or American, or Arab, or whatever. As long as its injustice, I cannot tolerate it. It doesn't matter who's doing it. Injustice is injustice, period. I do not approve of the crimes Muslims have committed, and likewise, I do not approve of the crimes Americans have committed. I'm not a blind supporter of anyone.Quote:
Originally posted by RICHARD
What do you have to say about the three girls who were poisoned for attending school???
And I would like to add, I am incredibly ashamed of the actions of certain so-called Muslims these days. They have left their religion, and follow their pathetic cultures, that have nothing to do with their religion. I honestly believe this is why they are suffering so much these days. Perhaps God is punishing them for leaving their religion........for leaving the peace, justice, and honesty that Islam teaches, and becoming as evil as evil can get. If you think I'm in favor of what they do there, you are wrong. I would never favor their crimes just because they claim to be Muslim. They are evil-doers, and they make my blood boil, especially when I see so many Americans thinking that what those people do is what Islam teaches. What they do is not what Islam teaches. It has nothing to do with the religion. It only has to do with their stupidity and evil minds. I'm saying this because just as you cannot consider all troops bad because of what happened, you cannot consider all Muslims bad because of the bad apples that are very unfortunately, amongst them. Of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, just a handful are evil. I know that in the troops, the evil ones are just a handful too.
Quote:
Originally posted by popcornbird
Of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, just a handful are evil. I know that in the troops, the evil ones are just a handful too.
Great, we agree on this point.
My condemnation is not for the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world.
My problem is with the .00000000000001 percent who are in the position to use common sense and to talk to the people to get a non violent resolution to some of the problems in the Middle East.
The creep in Fallujah, Sadr, is that his name?? constantly stirs up the hornet's nest by calling for the people to fight the coalition, he could just as easily call for them to lay down their arms and talk about the problem.....He then tells everyone that he will gladly be martyred for the cause....
Well, hiding out in a mosque and shooting at people is a great way to get peace to the region...
Arafat is also another moron who won't be missed on the planet.
Historically, when you lose in a war you kick back and figure out why you lost.....you don't keep crying about a 50 year old loss and whip up the people to kick out the winners......Sore loser?
I should say so...
My point, as you so eloquently pointed out is that if there are 1.3 billion GOOD followers of the Islamic faith, there should be 1,299, 999,900 voices (I just made 100 people evil), united and drowning out the bad ones......
Make that 1.299,999,899.....
I heard you.
And I still have an apology with your name on it.
Any soldier who is given an illegal order is bound by the UCMJ to not follow the order and report the person giving the order. A soldier who doesn't isn't a soldier, they are a craven idiot. The nazis tried the "we were just following orders" bit in Nuremburg, and all it got them was the gallows. I have a very, very hard time believing that a military intelligence unit ordered them to take those actions, especially when a military intelligence unit would not have allowed pictures even IF they did order it. All soldiers are given training on EPW handling prior to deployment, as well as classes on the UCMJ (uniform code of Military Justice), the Law of Land Warfare, and rules for use of force. Those aren't soldiers, those are animals soiling my uniform.
I have not read all the posts, but the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" apply's, being a NZ'er I donot automatically think all the US Military are bad , it is a few who have spoilt the good name of the US forces, and they should and will be duly punished.
We always heard about the Japanese and the cruelty they endured upon our British soldiers etc, but did we ever hear or know for sure what happened in their camps.
I donot condone any of this behaviour, and was as shocked as the rest of you, on viewing this sad state of affairs.
But I know who I would turn to in times of need THE US FORCES, they saved our country once before, and I would hope like heck they would again.
YES SHAME ON THOSE who committed these crimes, but let us not judge the rest of the US FORCES by their behaviour, it is sad that the iraqi people will hate them even more because of this.
I really believe this is a good thing for U.S. officials to do &
I hope it helps somewhat.
p.s. The last paragraph is a little ironic.
Top U.S. Officials Apologize To Arabs for Prisoner Abuse
By Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 5, 2004; Page A19
The Bush administration's top foreign policy officials publicly apologized yesterday to the Arab world for abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. personnel at notorious Abu Ghraib prison, and officials said President Bush today would join the effort to limit damage from the revelations.
Bush will conduct two 10-minute interviews today with the U.S.-sponsored al-Hurra television network and the Arab network al-Arabiya, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said last night.
"This is an opportunity for the president to speak directly to the people in Arab nations and let them know that the images that we all have seen are shameless and unacceptable," McClellan said.
In interviews with the al-Arabiya, al-Jazeera and Lebanese television networks, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice expressed sorrow yesterday about the treatment of Iraqi detainees and regret for the humiliation of them and their families.
"The American president is reacting because no American wants to be associated with any dehumanizations now of the Iraqi people. And we are deeply sorry for what has happened to these people and what the families must be feeling. It's just not right. And we will get to the bottom of what happened," Rice told al-Arabiya, a regional network broadcast from Dubai.
"It's simply unacceptable that anyone would engage in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners," she said.
The language from several ranking U.S. officials was striking for its remorse and embarrassment over the photos of U.S. personnel apparently abusing Iraqis at the prison made famous for torture during Saddam Hussein's 24-year rule. The White House has scurried to pull together a response after "shock waves" rippled through the administration this week over the damage done in the Arab world, said an envoy from a country familiar with the U.S. reaction.
At the United Nations, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said yesterday that the photos had "stunned every American. It was shocking. It showed acts that are despicable" and totally out of character for the U.S. military, he told reporters after a meeting with Secretary General Kofi Annan, and European Union and Russian officials on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"I'm deeply concerned at the horrible image this has sent around the world. But at the same time, I want to remind the world that it's a small number of troops who acted in an illegal, improper manner," Powell said, reflecting the approach the administration is taking in dealing with the issue.
Rice and Powell stressed that U.S. troops had intervened in Iraq to liberate Iraqis and promote democratic freedoms throughout the region. "Let's not let that take away from the magnificent contributions being made by most of our soldiers, the vast majority of our soldiers, who are building schools, repairing hospitals, who are defending themselves, going after the bad guys, but also putting in sewer systems for the people of Iraq," Powell said on CNN's "Larry King Live."
But Powell, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who served twice in Vietnam, also said he had never heard of or seen behavior like this during his military career.
The administration is coming under growing heat from Congress as well. Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (Del.), ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, called the prisoners' treatment "appalling" and called for the White House to address the fallout "with far more urgency than the administration has demonstrated so far."
Biden called the alleged abuse "the single most damaging act" to U.S. interests in the Middle East in a decade and warned that it would have a broad and negative impact on U.S. national security.
In an interview with al-Hurra television, Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage acknowledged that long-term damage had been done to U.S. relations in the region.
"It will take a long time, however, I think, for us to recover," Armitage said.
Rice said the United States believes it is "extremely important" to talk directly to Arab and Islamic audiences to underscore the U.S. goal of promoting peace and democratic values.
The State Department announced it is postponing release of its annual report on U.S. support for human rights and democracy around the world, which had been scheduled for today. According to a statement, the report was delayed for "technical reasons." On Monday, however, the State Department had announced that the document was ready to be unveiled.
Send me Kylie Minogue and we'll call it even, ok?Quote:
Originally posted by carole
But I know who I would turn to in times of need THE US FORCES, they saved our country once before, and I would hope like heck they would again.
:) :cool: :D ;) :eek:
Well mate I would but she is a blimey Aussie, how about Lucy Lawless ZENA WARRIOR PRINCESS, now she is one of ours.:) :D
Not when Powell starts to lie....Where was he during the My Lai massacre...asleep?Quote:
Originally posted by lizbud
I really believe this is a good thing for U.S. officials to do &
I hope it helps somewhat.
But Powell, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who served twice in Vietnam, also said he had never heard of or seen behavior like this during his military career.
lolololol,Quote:
Originally posted by carole
Well mate I would but she is a blimey Aussie, how about Lucy Lawless ZENA WARRIOR PRINCESS, now she is one of ours.:) :D
I'll pay for the shipping.....;)
It's a deal mate, just going offline to ring her right now, sure she won't mind, she has just finished being a judge on NZ IDOL, so I reckon she is free right now.lol:) :D
After My Lai, Powell, the Americal division G-3, was busy burying the story.
AHA!Quote:
Originally posted by Lady's Human
After My Lai, Powell, the Americal division G-3, was busy burying the story.
Just what I suspected!
------------------
We should have just bull dozed the prison, as a gesture to the Iraqis and found someplace else to keep the prisoners...
I really think that this will blow over soon. Al Jazeera will go on to the next horror show soon enough.....it's all about ratings anyway.
:rolleyes:
Let's put this situation into a parable. Let's say there are several young children whose father is a horrible tyrant who delights in abusing and humiliating them. They spend their whole lives terrified of this bully, and because of it are afraid of everything and everyone. They cannot trust their own father so they learn not to trust anyone.
So when their home gets busted into by child services, they are scared, worried and skeptical. The social workers tell them they are there to save them from their horrible father and that soon they will have a wonderful family life like every kid deserves.
The social workers work hard to gain their trust, because these kids have seen so much before and are incredibly jaded. They know their father, they know his abuses, if nothing else he was predictable. Rather the devil you know...
But then some of the social workers start to do some of the same things their dad did. Abusing them in every way, but quietly, and the other social workers choose to look away. No one in charge stops this.
Could those social workers and the government tell those children:
"Well, what your father did was worse."
Blow over soon????? That what I keep hoping will happen with the whole Iraq invasion (and the Bush adminstration.)
The problem with the moral high road is that is is hard to keep your balance at that altitude.
You forgot the part when the fox thinks the grape are sour!Quote:
Originally posted by Soledad
Let's put this situation into a parable.
And the part where the kids go nuts and try to kill the social workers with AK 74s, RPGs and improvised bombs after they get rid of the evil father.
The social workers, frustrated because they are playing by the rules, flip out and start doing stupid things......
While all this is going on, some of the bad kids call for martyrdom, while they hide out in a religious shrines thumbing their noses at the social workers.
None of the good kids will rat out the bad kids who kill the social workers, burn the bodies and desecrate them by hanging them off a bridge-Even though the kid's basic values say that doing that is a real NO-NO!
The moral of the story?
Behave yourself, put all your pride aside and sit down and try to talk things over. THAT way there won't be so many problems and everyone works towards the good of all.
-----------------------
"Well, what your father did was worse."
Yep, but it was OK when dad did it......because he loved us, the social workers don't...
Instead of the "nudie bomb" we should go for the "common sense" bomb.......that way people will wake up and really see the stupidity behind the 'bad kids' logic..
But what do you expect from people who are still traumatized by the crusades of 1096? Talk about harboring a grudge...
------------------------
Again,
It's not a problem of "dad was a jerk".
It's the age old problem of the police showing up at a 'domestic disturbance' and having the person reporting the hassle telling the police, while sporting a black eye, missing teeth and a few bruises, "Please don't them to jail, I LOVE HIM/HER.." Don't call the cops, get the person arrested and fail to testify at the trial.
Take the phone off the hook, close the doors and beat the crap out of each other, finish it once and for all.
Save the world some time.